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 Post subject: Having people "contribute" to CPL training by flying them?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 10:49 pm 
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Can anyone here provide any objections to having a competent PPL collect some money by providing a service flying people around in a rented airplane?
To expand on this, I know it is illegal to accept compensation for flying, but what about a contribution by a passenger towards part of the hourly rental of a plane from an FTU?

I ask this because I fly a lot of friends from place to place right now as I am building the 50 hour x-country PIC requirement for multi-IFR eligibility, and they will usually throw me a few dollars for fun. It got me thinking.

What I am thinking about is putting the word out that I will provide flights to some typical < 200 nm destinations (radiating from the GTA) for around 50 an hour or so. Much less than the rental of the airplane, so I am still not coming close to making any sort of profit.
The word of mouth would basically be to acquaintances, via email blasts, Facebook, etc. Nothing on a large scope; maybe just a handful of people per month, so there wouldn't be any sort of confusion with a legitimate business!

I would like to garner any opinions before I tiptoe into this gray area, just so I am not setting myself up for any sort of trouble. I'm assuming that as long as I keep it private and low key it wouldn't pose any sort of issue. I would generally be making these x-country flights anyways regardless of if I had a paying passenger or not.

I am just looking for a way to offset the costs of time building, but don't want to cross any lines.

Thanks,
DC

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 Post subject: Re: Having people "contribute" to CPL training by flying them?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 2:40 am 
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No, you cannot do this.

You should have budgeted enough money to pay for your timebuilding for your cpl. If you do a trip with a friend and he later slips you a couple bucks towards the rental is one thing, but advertising for a service like that is completely different.

Besides, there are peopl out thier making thier living doing this kind of thing legally. What you are proposing is to illegally chisel away some of thier buisness. (And you future earnigns as a cpl)

Its tempting, and alot of people think about doing it. Do not.

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 Post subject: Re: Having people "contribute" to CPL training by flying them?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 2:55 am 
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DanWEC wrote:
What I am thinking about is putting the word out that I will provide flights .....


No can do. You are in business now. The word "provide" is key.
If you take along friend, relative, coworker, neighbour for a x-country flight and such passenger contributes towards the bill because he/she enjoyed the trip is OK. But if your passenger decides the destination and you charge a sum of money, you are now in the charter business.

Hope that helps.

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 Post subject: Re: Having people "contribute" to CPL training by flying them?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 3:15 am 
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Funny you should ask, I was on the opposite end of this convo last month. Here's what I learned:

1. You need to actually own the plane you'd be flying - its illegal to do what you are suggesting in a plane that you don't personally own.

2. The pax have to be incidental to the trip - ie you have to be going on the trip whether or not anyone else is. Make sure you understand this requirement thoroughly. You cannot legally say "I will fly you to CY** for 50/hr", its only legal if your situation is like "I'm going to Oshkosh and have a spare seat if anyone's interested"

3. The pax can only contribute a proportional share of fuel and oil costs. Ie 1 seat out of 4 means 1/4 of the fuel bill.

You really, really don't want to be on the wrong side of the law if there's an incident or accident, so be careful here. You do NOT want to be violated by tc for something like this if you ever plan on flying for a living.

If you don't own the plane, the conversation is already over, and you have indicated that you rent so my guess is that this is a non-starter for you.

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 Post subject: Re: Having people "contribute" to CPL training by flying them?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 3:45 am 
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So a friend of mine gets an hour a month free use (wet, everything covered) of the FBO airplane, as a perk because he works there. Of all the guys, he is the only one without a pilots license. And he's not working on getting one. So can I fly him, as a private pilot only, not working on my CPL or anything, to a place he chooses, just because I love to fly and this would be free flight time? Cost is zero, so even if I have to pay 1/2, it's still zero.


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 Post subject: Re: Having people "contribute" to CPL training by flying them?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 4:05 am 
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Well DanWEC, at least you created a new account for posting this topic.
All I'm gonna say is don't offer anything to people you don't know. And don't use Facebook!

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 Post subject: Re: Having people "contribute" to CPL training by flying them?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 4:55 am 
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Sulako,

Understanding everthing else in your post has been fully understood for years - Are you %100 sure about the ownership point? If I were to say, take one of our club planes to Calgary for the Stampede or something and took three friends with me, then it would be illegal for us to split the cost? What if all four of us are pilots, or pilots from my club? What if a pilot in the back seat rented it and I don't have to repay him (he feels sorry for my unemployment)?

Or does being in a club imply partial ownership, thus allowing cost sharing?


Last edited by Kilo-Kilo on Mon Jul 27, 2009 5:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Having people "contribute" to CPL training by flying them?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 5:15 am 
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Alright boys, pretty much get the picture. My suspicions have been affirmed. I will continue to accept a few bucks here and there from friends who need a lift, but I won't go any further than that.
Hey Spokes, don't jump to conclusions mate, I have budgeted accordingly, just always looking for a better way, a little entrepreneurship.
My moral dilemma was mostly concerns of mowing my FTU's charter business, and also the fact that even though I wasn't making a profit, I wouldn't still be accepting money. That's still a business- you don't have to make a profit; that's still a business, it's just a crappy business. lol.

It was an idea... but that's about the end of it.

Cheers,
Dan

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 Post subject: Re: Having people "contribute" to CPL training by flying them?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 3:59 pm 
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http://www.tc.gc.ca/civilaviation/regse ... htm#401_28

Quote:
Aeroplanes and Helicopters - Reimbursement of Costs Incurred in Respect of a Flight

401.28(1) The holder of a private pilot licence shall not act as the pilot-in-command of an aeroplane or helicopter for hire or reward unless the conditions set out in subsection (2), (3), (4) or (5), as applicable, are met.

(2) The holder of a private pilot licence may receive reimbursement for costs incurred in respect of a flight if the holder

(a) is the owner or operator of the aircraft;

(b) conducts the flight for purposes other than hire or reward;

(c) carries passengers only incidentally to the purposes of the flight; and

(d) receives a reimbursement that

(i) is provided only by the passengers referred to in paragraph (c), and

(ii) is for the purpose of sharing costsfor fuel, oil and fees charged against the aircraft in respect of the flight, as applicable.


Yes, as a PPL you can legally rent an aircraft and carry pax
on a trip, as long as you can tell Enforcement with a straight face
that you were planning to do the trip, regardless of whether or not
the pax were going to come along or not. This is crucial.

And, if the bill for the a/c was $100, and there were 4 people on board,
if each person kicks in $25 that's "sharing", above.

But what would I know, compared to an internet hero?

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 Post subject: Re: Having people "contribute" to CPL training by flying them?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 5:33 pm 
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Hedley wrote:
But what would I know, compared to an internet hero?


Is this your new thing to use? What other forum did you find it on that you've been secretly sneaking away from avcanada to peruse? I hate to tell you this, but with 7000+ posts to your credit and "top poster" billed beneath your name you are an internet hero! :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Having people "contribute" to CPL training by flying them?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 5:48 pm 
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Thanks Hedley,

That is the way I have always interpreted it, however I thought I may have missed some recent ammendment to the law. You never know in this country.


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 Post subject: Re: Having people "contribute" to CPL training by flying them?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 6:13 pm 
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Sulako wrote:
Funny you should ask, I was on the opposite end of this convo last month. Here's what I learned:

1. You need to actually own the plane you'd be flying - its illegal to do what you are suggesting in a plane that you don't personally own.

2. The pax have to be incidental to the trip - ie you have to be going on the trip whether or not anyone else is. Make sure you understand this requirement thoroughly. You cannot legally say "I will fly you to CY** for 50/hr", its only legal if your situation is like "I'm going to Oshkosh and have a spare seat if anyone's interested"

3. The pax can only contribute a proportional share of fuel and oil costs. Ie 1 seat out of 4 means 1/4 of the fuel bill.

You really, really don't want to be on the wrong side of the law if there's an incident or accident, so be careful here. You do NOT want to be violated by tc for something like this if you ever plan on flying for a living.

If you don't own the plane, the conversation is already over, and you have indicated that you rent so my guess is that this is a non-starter for you.



1. According to the CAR's you have to be an OWNER or OPERATOR. Would a pilot renting a plane be considered an OPERATOR?

3. PAX can contribute what ever charge that is applied to the aircraft. Fuel, Oil, I'm assuming (rental fees from the school), Landing Fee's, etc.

I'm going by memory here but I think you can find the list of privileges under CAR401.28


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 Post subject: Re: Having people "contribute" to CPL training by flying them?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 6:36 pm 
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From the CARs http://www.tc.gc.ca/civilaviation/regse ... bpart1.htm
Quote:
"operator" - in respect of an aircraft, means the person that has possession of the aircraft as owner, lessee or otherwise;

My understanding is that the PIC is the operator assuming he has rented the plane. It may get a bit iffy if one of the passengers rents it in her name and has the PIC fly it but I think that's covered by the "otherwise" provision.

All the provisions are in 401.28 and basically amount to:
  • PAX must be incidental
  • you can be reimbursed for the total direct costs (it doesn't say how the costs are to be split amongst the passengers, just that they must be shared)
Here's a bit of a more in depth look at 401.28

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 Post subject: Re: Having people "contribute" to CPL training by flying them?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 8:07 pm 
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Exactly, "otherwise" is totally within the parameters of a renter.

And there's no delegation as to how much the passengers can pay. They have to be incidental, that's already covered; as for the costs, they can pay how ever much they want.


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 Post subject: Re: Having people "contribute" to CPL training by flying them?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 8:21 pm 
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Quote:
they can pay how ever much they want


as long as the costs are "shared" as per CAR 401.28(2)(d)(ii):

Quote:
sharing costs for fuel, oil and fees charged against the aircraft in respect of the flight


I note that it does not say that the costs must be shared equally
therefore the costs may be legally shared unequally therefore the
pilot does not have to contribute as much.

You could argue that as long as the pilot pays one penny
that the costs are indeed shared.

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 Post subject: Re: Having people "contribute" to CPL training by flying them?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 11:11 pm 
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I said this before, but I believe that the advertising puts you into the chisel charter area.

This is a paper trail on which TC will sniff out a prosecute.


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 Post subject: Re: Having people "contribute" to CPL training by flying them?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 11:22 pm 
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Kilo-Kilo wrote:
Sulako,

Understanding everthing else in your post has been fully understood for years - Are you %100 sure about the ownership point? If I were to say, take one of our club planes to Calgary for the Stampede or something and took three friends with me, then it would be illegal for us to split the cost? What if all four of us are pilots, or pilots from my club? What if a pilot in the back seat rented it and I don't have to repay him (he feels sorry for my unemployment)?

Or does being in a club imply partial ownership, thus allowing cost sharing?




You are correct and I am incorrect. When I read 401.28 last month I read it as "owner and operator" rather than "owner or operator". You don't need to own the airplane, renting it will do. I gotta quit posting on AvCan before double-checking my information :oops:

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 Post subject: Re: Having people "contribute" to CPL training by flying them?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 12:20 am 
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Shiny Side Up wrote:
Hedley wrote:
But what would I know, compared to an internet hero?


[...] I hate to tell you this, but with 7000+ posts to your credit and "top poster" billed beneath your name you are an internet hero! :wink:


Would you two please get a room.... :smt008

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 Post subject: Re: Having people "contribute" to CPL training by flying them?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 2:36 am 
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MrWings wrote:
I said this before, but I believe that the advertising puts you into the chisel charter area.

This is a paper trail on which TC will sniff out a prosecute.


I guess you COULD get away with it if you said something like "Going to North Bay on Sunday, any one want to join me?" but even then I agree with MrWings that you're entering a twilight area.

To be safe, don't advertise.

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 Post subject: Re: Having people "contribute" to CPL training by flying them?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 7:37 am 
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Sulako wrote:
You are correct and I am incorrect. When I read 401.28 last month I read it as "owner and operator" rather than "owner or operator". You don't need to own the airplane, renting it will do. I gotta quit posting on AvCan before double-checking my information :oops:

Indeed, it's just as having someone rent the plane and ask you to fly it for him. Without actually paying you, someone can pay the full rental cost of the plane, as long as you personnaly don't get more money and say your were going to do that flight anyway. So of course you don't need to own the plane.

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 Post subject: Re: Having people "contribute" to CPL training by flying them?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 12:23 pm 
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Quote:
advertising puts you into the chisel charter area


It depends upon what you advertise. CAR 401.28 does not
specify the personal relationship (if any) between the pilot
and the passengers - it does not say family, or friends, or
specify a minimum length of time that you have been
acquainted.

If you advertise:

Quote:
I am flying to North Bay on Sunday August 23rd
at 9am - anyone want to come with me?


I think you're golden, because you were going to make
the trip anyways, regardless of whether or not you had
any pax.

However, if you advertise:

Quote:
I will fly you anywhere in Ontario


Then you are violating CAR 401.28, because the
pax are NO LONGER merely "incidental" to the
flight, they are the PURPOSE of the flight - you
wouldn't have made that flight unless the pax
paid you to - voila, you are in the charter business,
and you need a 703 OC.

See the difference? It's a fine line, and many
people find it confusing to sort out the difference
between the two circumstances.

Bottom line, when Enforcement calls you up, you
have to be able to convincingly state that YOU
WERE GOING TO MAKE THE TRIP ANYWAYS
regardless of whether or not any pax tagged along.

If you can say that, CAR 401.28 covers your butt.

If you can't say that, you're in the charter biz,
and you better have an AOC.

It's odd that there isn't at least one question on
this topic on the PPL written - it's a very misunderstood
subject!

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 Post subject: Re: Having people "contribute" to CPL training by flying them?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 4:20 pm 
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You are the operator of the aircraft if you lease it. You need a lease agreement and your name on the C of R.

Renters don't qualify.

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 Post subject: Re: Having people "contribute" to CPL training by flying them?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 4:29 pm 
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Quote:
You are the operator of the aircraft if you lease it. You need a lease agreement and your name on the C of R. Renters don't qualify.


Do you have a CARs reference or a Tribunal Review or Tribunal
Appeal or Federal Court or Federal Court of Appeals precedent
for that claim?

Looking at CAR 101.01(1):

http://www.tc.gc.ca/civilaviation/regse ... bpart1.htm

I see:

Quote:
"operator" - in respect of an aircraft, means the person that has possession of the aircraft as owner, lessee or otherwise;


A renter is a person, correct?

A renter is a person that has possession of the aircraft, correct?

A renter is not the owner or lessee - he is "otherwise", correct?

Clearly a renter is a "operator" as per CAR 101.01(1). I'm not
sure how you can misinterpret that.

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 Post subject: Re: Having people "contribute" to CPL training by flying them?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 8:31 pm 
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Hedley wrote:
Quote:
advertising puts you into the chisel charter area


It depends upon what you advertise. CAR 401.28 does not
specify the personal relationship (if any) between the pilot
and the passengers - it does not say family, or friends, or
specify a minimum length of time that you have been
acquainted.

If you advertise:

Quote:
I am flying to North Bay on Sunday August 23rd
at 9am - anyone want to come with me?


I think you're golden, because you were going to make
the trip anyways, regardless of whether or not you had
any pax.

However, if you advertise:

Quote:
I will fly you anywhere in Ontario


Then you are violating CAR 401.28, because the
pax are NO LONGER merely "incidental" to the
flight, they are the PURPOSE of the flight - you
wouldn't have made that flight unless the pax
paid you to - voila, you are in the charter business,
and you need a 703 OC.

See the difference? It's a fine line, and many
people find it confusing to sort out the difference
between the two circumstances.

Bottom line, when Enforcement calls you up, you
have to be able to convincingly state that YOU
WERE GOING TO MAKE THE TRIP ANYWAYS
regardless of whether or not any pax tagged along.

If you can say that, CAR 401.28 covers your butt.

If you can't say that, you're in the charter biz,
and you better have an AOC.

It's odd that there isn't at least one question on
this topic on the PPL written - it's a very misunderstood
subject!



Hedley, I wouldn't call it a fine line; CAR401.28 has a significant amount of Leeway attached to it. But I see what you mean.


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 Post subject: Re: Having people "contribute" to CPL training by flying them?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 8:40 pm 
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Quote:
I wouldn't call it a fine line


Depends upon your grasp of it, I guess. I don't think
it's that complicated, either, but some people do.

Not everyone is a professional (or amateur) legal
expert! Thanks to Transport, I spend an awful lot
of time preparing court cases. Part of being a pilot
in Canada, I suppose. I can pretty well count on a
CARs interpretation and application discussion after
almost every flight I make. Enforcement was very
active at my tiny airport last week.

Anyways, if 401.28 was that clear-cut, would this
thread exist? :wink:

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