Dear NavCanada:

the_professor · Post by **the_professor** » Mon Sep 21, 2009 11:25 am

Hedley wrote: I understand that when NavCan was supposedly separated from the
government ( ) they didn't negotiate a very good deal - they
didn't get any of the fuel excise tax.

How can you not understand NC's relation to the government? NC did not "negotiate a crappy deal". The government created NC, the government wrote into law how they (NC) could fund themselves, and the government kept the fuel tax for themselves. You cannot blame an entity created by the government not "negotiating" a better deal. There was NOTHING to negotiate.

That should not surprise anyone, nor should it please anyone. But to blindly (and incorrectly) "blame" NC for not using your fuel tax proceeds for their operation is goddamned ridiculous.

Talk to your MP Hedley -- don't waste our time on here bitching about things on which you are obviously very poorly informed.

the_professor · Post by **the_professor** » Mon Sep 21, 2009 11:41 am

IFRATC wrote:Secondly, it has been common practice in past years that surplus dollars were GIVEN BACK to the industry. That is what the BOD decide (airlines).

That is incorrect. It is not the BOD that decides to give money back; the law/act under which NC exists requires charges to be reduced (not refunded) in order to stay in a break-even position once the rate stabilization fund reaches a certain level.

Are you suggesting the airlines receive lump-sum payments from Nav Canada? Show me where this has happened. Which year? It would have to appear in the audited statements.

Sounds like that union handbook has gone to your head. Nice conspiracy theory though -- I hadn't heard that one before.

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Mon Sep 21, 2009 11:42 am

*** edited ***

the_professor · Post by **the_professor** » Mon Sep 21, 2009 11:55 am

Hedley wrote:You work (sorry, are employed) by the government,
so how can I possibly "waste your time"?

to blindly (and incorrectly) "blame" NC for not using your fuel tax proceeds for their operation is goddamned ridiculous
No, you *sshole, it is not goddamned ridiculous. I
am being taxed for a service, and I object to paying
for it two (or three, or four) times.

Now go away and play with your mike button.

It is ridiculous when you blame NC for "not negotiating" something that they couldn't possibly have negotiated. The government split them off, and said "here, go fund yourself with this mechanism." Period. There was nothing to negotiate. I don't know why you fail to understand that.

Your beef is with the government, and not NC, which does not receive a dime from the government. If you think they should be government-funded and receive fuel tax revenue, your beef is STILL with the government, not NC.

Blaming NC for not "negotiating" a "better deal" with the government is like blaming a child for not negotiating a better deal with its parents when he's kicked out of the house at age 18 and forced to fend for himself.

the_professor · Post by **the_professor** » Mon Sep 21, 2009 12:06 pm

By the way, does anyone know the total for aviation fuel taxes annually?

Nav Canada's revenue last year (2008) from user fees was $1,192,000,000. (http://www.navcanada.ca/ContentDefiniti ... 008_en.pdf, page 38).

Does anybody on here actually think the government is collecting that much in aviation fuel taxes? I haven't yet had time to look.

If not, I suppose it would please some of you if they got rid of NC user fees and simply hiked the fuel tax to make up the difference, and gave it all to NC for its operations.

Then the government would turn around and hike your income taxes to make up for the fuel tax revenue that will have been removed from General Revenues.

What is the net outcome of that equation? Don't kid yourself: The government is not going to give up fuel tax revenue to Nav Canada and not replace it somehow.

mcrit · Post by **mcrit** » Mon Sep 21, 2009 3:07 pm

the_professor wrote:Ok, I give up. You're right. Nav Canada is a massive fraud, whose management is paid hundreds of millions of dollars per year, but their balance sheets (which change only by single-digit percentages year-over-year, and can in no way be compared to a technology company's) are secretly crafted to hide the fact that the rest of the employees and the massive equipment costs are magically taken care of.

I KNEW it!

the_professor · Post by **the_professor** » Mon Sep 21, 2009 7:11 pm

mcrit wrote:
the_professor wrote:Ok, I give up. You're right. Nav Canada is a massive fraud, whose management is paid hundreds of millions of dollars per year, but their balance sheets (which change only by single-digit percentages year-over-year, and can in no way be compared to a technology company's) are secretly crafted to hide the fact that the rest of the employees and the massive equipment costs are magically taken care of.
I KNEW it!

Thank you for showing me the light.

the_professor · Post by **the_professor** » Mon Sep 21, 2009 7:17 pm

luckyboy wrote:What is the Navcan version of the AIP's purpose anyway, since TC has the AIM online? Does anyone read it?

What are you talking about, "the Navcan version of the AIP"?

the_professor · Post by **the_professor** » Mon Sep 21, 2009 7:18 pm

luckyboy wrote:Good thing they got TCTI for a symbolic 1$. Imagine if they had to pay market value?

TCTI became NCTI at the transition. $1?

Again, what are you talking about?

Pygmie · Post by **Pygmie** » Mon Sep 21, 2009 7:20 pm

the_professor wrote:By the way, does anyone know the total for aviation fuel taxes annually?

Nav Canada's revenue last year (2008) from user fees was $1,192,000,000. (http://www.navcanada.ca/ContentDefiniti ... 008_en.pdf, page 38).

Does anybody on here actually think the government is collecting that much in aviation fuel taxes? I haven't yet had time to look.

...

2008 government financial statements show $38,751,572 collected in Aviation fuel taxes.

the_professor · Post by **the_professor** » Mon Sep 21, 2009 7:21 pm

Hedley wrote:You work (sorry, are employed) by the government,
so how can I possibly "waste your time"?

No, I don't. I used to.

I think you've done too many loops & rolls, and this has permanently affected your sense of balance and reality.

the_professor · Post by **the_professor** » Mon Sep 21, 2009 7:21 pm

Pygmie wrote:
the_professor wrote:By the way, does anyone know the total for aviation fuel taxes annually?

Nav Canada's revenue last year (2008) from user fees was $1,192,000,000. (http://www.navcanada.ca/ContentDefiniti ... 008_en.pdf, page 38).

Does anybody on here actually think the government is collecting that much in aviation fuel taxes? I haven't yet had time to look.

...
2008 government financial statements show $38,751,572 collected in Aviation fuel taxes.

Source/link?

mcrit · Post by **mcrit** » Mon Sep 21, 2009 7:22 pm

the_professor wrote:
mcrit wrote:
the_professor wrote:Ok, I give up. You're right. Nav Canada is a massive fraud, whose management is paid hundreds of millions of dollars per year, but their balance sheets (which change only by single-digit percentages year-over-year, and can in no way be compared to a technology company's) are secretly crafted to hide the fact that the rest of the employees and the massive equipment costs are magically taken care of.
I KNEW it!

Thank you for showing me the light.

Sorry, should have stuck a

after my last post. I'll stop pressing your buttons now professor.

Pygmie · Post by **Pygmie** » Mon Sep 21, 2009 7:23 pm

the_professor wrote:
Pygmie wrote:
the_professor wrote:By the way, does anyone know the total for aviation fuel taxes annually?

Nav Canada's revenue last year (2008) from user fees was $1,192,000,000. (http://www.navcanada.ca/ContentDefiniti ... 008_en.pdf, page 38).

Does anybody on here actually think the government is collecting that much in aviation fuel taxes? I haven't yet had time to look.

...
2008 government financial statements show $38,751,572 collected in Aviation fuel taxes.

Source/link?

Sorry, should have included it: http://www.tpsgc-pwgsc.gc.ca/recgen/txt/72-eng.html

EDIT: Volume II, Section 4.6

iflyforpie · Post by **iflyforpie** » Mon Sep 21, 2009 7:37 pm

the_professor · Post by **the_professor** » Mon Sep 21, 2009 8:09 pm

Pygmie wrote: 2008 government financial statements show $38,751,572 collected in Aviation fuel taxes.

Sorry, should have included it: http://www.tpsgc-pwgsc.gc.ca/recgen/txt/72-eng.html

EDIT: Volume II, Section 4.6

Thanks. I'm not sure how the difference between 2007 and 2008 can be explained? The revenue almost doubles?

2007: $21,518,938
2008: $38,751,572

erics2b · Post by **erics2b** » Mon Sep 21, 2009 8:46 pm

morrow · Post by **morrow** » Wed Sep 23, 2009 9:36 am

Where is the reference to taking over TCTI for $1? Nav Can bought the system infrastructure for $1.5 billion which included TCTI/NCTI. I don't see any breakdown of costs in the 1.5 bil.

the_professor · Post by **the_professor** » Wed Sep 23, 2009 11:42 am

morrow wrote:Where is the reference to taking over TCTI for $1? Nav Can bought the system infrastructure for $1.5 billion which included TCTI/NCTI. I don't see any breakdown of costs in the 1.5 bil.

The reference is in his mind only, and in the minds (only) of all those on here who will believe anything that supports their (unfounded) convictions that Nav Canada is the worst thing ever.

You will not find a reference otherwise, because one does not exist. Nav Canada sold $1.5B in bonds to raise the capital to buy the ANS -- all of it -- from Transport. It was not sold piecemeal for idiotic sums like $1 for a 650,000sq ft training facility.

I guess you can't stop stupid people from believing stupid things...

the_professor · Post by **the_professor** » Wed Sep 23, 2009 2:47 pm

Hedley wrote:Hold on a goddamned second there. Before NavCan was supposedly
separated from the government (ho ho ho) the government enacted
a "fuel excise tax" which all of us pay when we buy fuel in Canada.

...

It IS my problem that NavCan wants to double-tax me, which is
pretty clearly the point of the so-called "separation" of NavCan
from the government, which as I said before, you'd have to
be pretty stupid to believe that rhetoric.

Actually Hedley, it is you that spews unfounded and inaccurate rhetoric.

Nav Canada's separation from the government is written into law, although you haven't bothered to read it, apparently.

Anyone looking for the truth on this fuel tax matter is invited to read the thread linked below. Don't believe Hedley's utter bullsh*t. I'd love to see the size of the shovel he must carry around.

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=58714

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