No EI or HRSDC funding for unemployed pilots?

[Carrier]

Various unemployed pilots across Canada have enquired about funding for training from EI or HRSDC. They have discovered that there is nothing available. There might be some funding available to someone who has a PPL for obtaining a CPL, ME and IR but that's where it stops. That is of no use to a pilot with those licences and ratings who has become unemployed.
If you already have a CPL with ME/IR there is nothing further available. There is no funding to maintain let alone improve your skills and qualifications. You cannot obtain funding to renew your IR or PPC. EI/HRSDC and their provincial agents do not recognise any need to maintain skills, the regulatory requirements for recency and currency or that an Instrument Rating is only valid for a certain length of time. Obtaining a Type Rating is not funded and such well known operations as Flight Safety International are not approved training organisations for federal or provincial funding for trainees.
The only funding available to unemployed pilots is for a change of occupation to something like Class A truck driver licence. EI/HRSDC also funds academic courses and trades at various colleges. It seems that funding is only available now to those who want to change careers. Where is the funding for those who want to stay in the same occupation but want to upgrade their qualifications and develop their skills to make themselves more employable? Where is the funding for those who need to maintain skills or who have qualifications such as an Instrument rating or PPC that have to be regularly renewed?
In the current recession EI/HRSDC should be doing all it can to help the increased numbers of unemployed get back to work. This is what the Skills Development part of HRSDC is supposed to be for. Presumably this should also apply to pilots.
In past threads on various forums posters have indicated that they or fellow pilots have received funding from EI/HRSDC for type ratings, etc. This is no longer available. Canadian pilots who lose their jobs are now on their own. There is no training or Skills Development assistance or funding available to pilots from federal or provincial EI or Skills Development programs. There is nothing available whether directly from EI, HRSDC or through the Labour Market Development Agreements (LMDA) with all provinces and territories.

Good luck to those pilots who are unemployed!

By the way, do pilots pay the same rates of EI contributions and taxes as those in other occupations?

Here are some past links. They indicate that funding used to be available.
viewtopic.php?f=54&t=5335&hilit=HRDC+funding
viewtopic.php?f=54&t=35841&hilit=HRDC+funding
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=17179&hilit=HRDC+funding
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=1235&hilit=HRDC+funding

[ScudRunner]

Maybe they finally realized that their is such a glut of pilots on the market which results in low wages and high turn over in the trade. Subsidizing this trade is counter productive to having a sustainable work force. Perhaps Ontario can stop subsidizing aviation colleges as well, taking pilots out of the job market and raising standards to obtain a licence are the only long term solution to systemic low wages.

[Rubberbiscuit]

Keeping your Multi IFR current, sure. Paying for type ratings, NO! I know a couple of guys with 300 - 400 hrs that took advantage of that a few years back and had EI pay for A320 type ratings. They never found a job. 40k per type rating in tax payer money down the drain.

I thought the whole notion of who should pay for training had been beaten to death. If EI pay for some pilots to obtain a type rating based on a promisary note from some operator I want them to follow up and ensure that the job promised wasn't a hoax. I also know several guys whom had operators write these letters with no intensions of hiring them after. Also where does that put other operators that hire guys right off the street and train them at their own expense. If you want to re-educate yourself... fine, if you find yourself on the street and EI pays for your medical exams and to keep your Multi IFR current or to do some take-offs and landings at the local flying club.... fine. But buying type ratings cause it makes you more marketable is shooting at the stars, especially in a recession/industry downturn where nobody is hiring regardless.

[Sulako]

Though not specific to aviation, one of the things that I used to get hired at my current job was the Targeted Wage Subsidy, which anyone on EI is eligible for. Basically EI pays your employer half your wage for 6 months if it helps you get a permanent full time job. It requires you to fill out a form for your EI counsellor to submit, and for your employer to make a phone call, and that's it . That goes a long way toward recovering the cost of training on a new aircraft, and it's a program that might be beneficial to you. Talk to your EI counsellor about it if they haven't already brought it up. In my case, my employer offset a large portion of the cost of my type rating with the resulting savings, but on a smaller airplane the savings would likely be equal to or greater than the cost of training.

I know it works because it worked for me.

http://www.hrsdc.gc.ca/eng/epb/sid/cia/ ... _tws.shtml

[Rubberbiscuit]

Though not specific to aviation, one of the things that I used to get hired at my current job was the Targeted Wage Subsidy, which anyone on EI is eligible for. Basically EI pays your employer half your wage for 6 months if it helps you get a permanent full time job. It requires you to fill out a form for your EI counsellor to submit, and for your employer to make a phone call, and that's it . That goes a long way toward recovering the cost of training on a new aircraft, and it's a program that might be beneficial to you. Talk to your EI counsellor about it if they haven't already brought it up. In my case, my employer offset a large portion of the cost of my type rating with the resulting savings, but on a smaller airplane the savings would likely be equal to or greater than the cost of training.

I know it works because it worked for me.

http://www.hrsdc.gc.ca/eng/epb/sid/cia/ ... _tws.shtml

That I can understand. Buying guys fresh out of flying school A320 ratings because they can't find a job and AC is hiring is a different story.

[tons-o-fun]

Though not specific to aviation, one of the things that I used to get hired at my current job was the Targeted Wage Subsidy, which anyone on EI is eligible for. Basically EI pays your employer half your wage for 6 months if it helps you get a permanent full time job. It requires you to fill out a form for your EI counsellor to submit, and for your employer to make a phone call, and that's it . That goes a long way toward recovering the cost of training on a new aircraft, and it's a program that might be beneficial to you. Talk to your EI counsellor about it if they haven't already brought it up. In my case, my employer offset a large portion of the cost of my type rating with the resulting savings, but on a smaller airplane the savings would likely be equal to or greater than the cost of training.

I know it works because it worked for me.

http://www.hrsdc.gc.ca/eng/epb/sid/cia/ ... _tws.shtml

This program is no longer being funded by the Ontario government. All applications are on "hold". I did not get hired because of this program but it was a great perk for my employer. Filled out all the paper work on my side and there's and about a week after it was all submitted they stopped this program without any warning (must be a liberal gov't thing...oops we're out of money). I felt bad for my employer after waiving the carrot in front of his face and then having to tell him it wasn't going to happen. Thanks Mcguinty.

[ogc]

This program is no longer being funded by the Ontario government. All applications are on "hold". I did not get hired because of this program but it was a great perk for my employer. Filled out all the paper work on my side and there's and about a week after it was all submitted they stopped this program without any warning (must be a liberal gov't thing...oops we're out of money). I felt bad for my employer after waiving the carrot in front of his face and then having to tell him it wasn't going to happen. Thanks Mcguinty.

There are a few EI programmes out there right now that are in the same boat.

Anything related to Second Career will not go through.

[meflypretty]

EI should make them sign a training bond!

I don't actually know what that means. Kinda drunk.

[HORUNNER]

Hey I just got handed the "Wage Subsidy Program" paper work this week at the prov employment office and letters to hand out with my resumes.
They did turn down my request for a training alotment (C208) as I renewed my IFR last DEC 08. They said I couldnt get anymore funding till 2 years after my last monies recieved from them.
If nothing gets going for me I may take a course to become a paramedic or a pharmacy tech early in 09

[Northern Skies]

I have some informaton regarding the skills development education benefit, from my understanding of it.

In sum, the benefit was designed to help someone who has a skill but nees a bit of further training to be employable. It is an investment in ending an EI claim and starting on a more sustainable career track. It was not intended to be a grant for initial training. To qualify, an applicant must prove with labour market information that there is a space for them in the workforce if this training is completed.

To put it in aviation terms, let's say you have a 2000 hour pilot with lots of PIC who needs an IFR ride to get a job, and will get one. That's what it's for... not for the 150 hour guy who probably can't get a job afterwards anyway.

In the past six months, the program has over-extended its budget to the point that two years worth of funding have been used up. From what I understand, funding had strayed from its original intention and paid for a lot of initial training, mainly to things like truck driving and welding courses. I also understand that the ease of funding for these programs was not necessarily accompanied by thorough labour market information. In reaction to this gross management oversight, they have suspended the program for now to "evaluate things". I do not believe that the program will be cancelled, because its purpose makes financial sense to HRSDC and its constituents. However, I am pretty annoyed that they can't get their sh*t together and manage this thing properly.

[flameboy_99]

Maybe if the Canadian government wasn't so busy trying to relieve the "undue hardship" on immigrants to Canada with paying for their health care, old age security pension(see bill C-428), and moving expenses incurred while immigrating to Canada all without having to contribute to the Canadian tax system, there might be enough money to help born and raised, tax paying, working Canadians in their time of need.


http://www2.parl.gc.ca/HousePublication ... =1&File=24

[wallypilot]

EI should make them sign a training bond!

I don't actually know what that means. Kinda drunk.

awesome...you going a bit stir crazy there buddy?

[Carrier]

Several posters on here seem to be against unemployed pilots receiving funding under EI/HRSDC or provincial skills development or wage subsidy programmes. Presumably these objectors are not pilots or, if they are employed as such, have a somewhat selfish "I'm allright, Jack!" attitude.
All motor manufacturers in Canada are foreign owned. This has not stopped Canada's federal and provincial governments from giving two foreign (American) motor manufacturers massive taxpayer funded hand outs to keep them operating and protect their workers' jobs. EI/HRSDC paying for a pilot to do a type rating or renewal at Flight Safety International in Toronto is no different from using tax funds to bail out GM and Chrysler and their workers in Windsor.
There are two issues here. One is the funding of people to obtain a trade or professional qualification. An example would be paying for an unqualified person to obtain a CPL/ME/IR. The other is the funding of people who through no fault of their own have become unemployed. Such people have already obtained their basic qualifications and significant experience, usually at their own cost, and have paid their dues. In other occupations funding is available to help such unemployed people to upgrade their skills and qualifications to help them become employed again. Why should this also not apply to pilots?
It is generally recognised that it is beneficial to maintain and create employment and to help citizens remain or become employed. Much (more than 60%) of the money used to do this in various programmes circulates back to the government in taxes, etc. from increased economic activity, employment and resulting spending and of course reduced EI and other payments to non-productive persons. The problem is that these programmes are not applied equally to all occupations, as they should be.
Pilots pay the same EI and tax rates as the workers employed to make cars. Why should pilots not receive the same benefits from the taxpayers to protect their jobs and enhance their skills as are available to workers in other industries? It is basic equity and fairness. If there are any pilots who object to this then they are yet more evidence that pilots are their own worse enemies!

[Vortex_driver]

I wish you good luck Carrier. I was unemployed during too long trying everything with those guys and didn't get a dime for training although they would pay winter after winters my 55% salary from the summer. It's not easy to deal with those people and most of all it's not fun to be in that situation.

We, as human, but specially as pilots, have a tendency of short memory, and when things are going good, we tend to forget rapidely how it's like.

You are fully right about the training and our rights to be trained just as any job. Keep going and keep sending resume and phone calls, and one day out of nowhere something's gonna come up!

Wish you all the best

[AEROBAT]

Maybe they finally realized that their is such a glut of pilots on the market which results in low wages and high turn over in the trade. Subsidizing this trade is counter productive to having a sustainable work force. Perhaps Ontario can stop subsidizing aviation colleges as well, taking pilots out of the job market and raising standards to obtain a licence are the only long term solution to systemic low wages.

. is absolutely right. Unless they ban aircraft that seat more than 20 passengers there will never be a shortage of pilots. Every year they come up with bigger planes that haul more people. I imagine Zeplin pilots must have been concerned when Douglas rolled out the DC-3.

[mbav8r]

Hey Carrier, I was a seasonal worker(construction) while trying to get an education. I was enrolled in University and at the same time I was taking my lessons at the local flying club. I filled out the cards truthfully and guess what? EI called me in for a meeting. They proceeded to tell me that I was doing too much to be considered for EI benefits and would have to drop half of what I was doing. I explained that the courses I was taking were going to compliment my Licence and make me more employable. I also explained I was paying for university and my licence out of my out pocket(personal loans) and simply needed EI to pay my rent and food and loan payment., etc. Well too bad rules are rules and if you don't drop one or the other we'll cut off your benefits. So long story short I don't have a university degree because of rules. They love to fund you for retraining in another feild, the bottom line is if you are unemployed from your feild of work there is a reason for it. I'm not saying I agree with this but, if they paid to type rate all the unemployed pilots, what percentage would get a job.
I would also say, if they are willing to fund you for a class 1 a licence, do it. I paid(again from my own pocket) for my class 1 and I'll tell you, it sure is comforting to know if I was laid off tomorrow I can pick up the phone and be employed the same day, making decent money. Been through a few downturns and driving a big truck isn't a terrible way to pay the bills.

[Walker]

Hey all, had a question pop up the other day that I suspect someone on here may have an answer to;

So my buddy has a CPL (currently laid off) and is looking to do his Class 4, I have heard in the past there was some way to get EI to pay for most if not ALL of a training program. Does anyone have any idea on what is required and how one would go about getting paperwork in order?

-thanks

[slowstream]

They've been done in the past, and the Fed's have numerous training assistance programs for people who are collecting E.I benefits. However your buddy should book an appointment with a at the E.I office and they can better explain what needs to be done.

[172PIC]

I tried last year and got a blank stare followed by a no. It really depends on your local office. Where I lived last year the unemployment rate was rather high and they'd only give skills training to people that were without work for over a year and mostly only for trades stuff.

Go to your local Service Canada and provincial equivalent and ask, they will prob send you to the local employment office and ask there. Worst case you get a no.

[185_guy]

When you go into see the EI folks, be prepared to prove why you need this training, how you will get it, etc. Have job ads that show you are qualified for 'these jobs' if only you had this one rating........
You'll have to prove the costs of getting this training, so get prices from at least 3 schools.
It will also help if you suggest that you can afford to 'help' pay for some of it, depending on the mood of the person you are dealing with, you could get 100% or 50% funding. Be prepared to do some bartering.
Also, try to get a few letters from people who have gone through this process saying that the funding helped them with their careers.
Do your homework and baffle them with BS. The more paperwork you have, the better. This is the government you are dealing with after all. it does not have to make sense, just sound good.
(I had my MIFR 90% funded about 5 years ago, things may have changed)

Good luck

[Carrier]

Things have changed!

Here is the thread from last year: viewtopic.php?f=54&t=60503

[downtomda]

Yes things have changed. I was laid off after 9/11 and had EI from the Federal Level pay the majority of my Instructor Rating as well as an IFR Renewal. A month after completing the course, I found a job.

Now in 2010, I looked into it again. The Employment placement training has been designated to the Provincial level and informed me that unless you take a college course in under water basket weaving, there would be no financial assistance to get me back in the work force. 6 months into unemployment and still looking for work!

[aviator2010]

I'd still go in and ask. The worst that they will tell you is no

[North Shore]

Every time one turns around on AvCanada, there's another posting from a frustrated class 4 Flight instructor, wanting to know if there are instructing jobs in some other part of the country where they aren't. Why on earth should/would the EI folks spend a single cent to 'retrain' a person to do a job where there are few open positions?

[L1011]

I looked into getting my Class IV last October either paid for or at least some help towards it. I had to go to an interview and attend group meetings at an "employment centre" in order to just get the application. These places are sub-contracted by the government to weed out the people who are truly a waste of time (whatever that would be) from the deserving ones who actually need the application. So, I went to the interview with different flight school options including my own choice, explained to the interviewer how an instructor rating would help me and he thought I was on the right track so he let me go on to the group meeting. At the group meeting after a bit more information was given, we received the application for the Second Career Training program. HOWEVER, we were told there was a 3 month wait to process the application and even then we could still expect a "no." They were already well-oversubscribed in the program and were looking to cut costs. By the way, this was in Ontario, it varies from province to province.

So since I had most of the money saved up from the job I had just got laid-off from, I went ahead and did my class IV anyway rather than wait 3 months for a possible no!

They even denied my EI this year because I quit a full-time job (not flying) to take a seasonal job (floats). They didn't really care that I took the seasonal job to try and further my career so that I wouldn't be needing EI and move-up from an unskilled full-time job in the bottom tax bracket....I guess they want to cut as much unemployment spending as possible now that we're this deep into the recession?