College of Pilots?
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Re: College of Pilots?
Last edited by jeta1 on Tue Aug 03, 2010 5:20 am, edited 3 times in total.
Re: College of Pilots?
Do you know who is on the Board of Directors for the CPPC? I do know a few of them, and I'd call them neither elitist, self-interested, nor would I attribute to them a WalMart mentality.
Former Advocate for Floatplane Safety
Re: College of Pilots?
I’ll concede and retract my elitist comment it was perhaps premature and a bit over the top. However at this stage of the game I can’t envision how or what this group plans to accomplish. I’ll go back to widow quote…
I’m having a difficult time foreseeing what a collective of self-appointed pilots can possibly do to improve the industry, particularly if it’s potentially going to create a scenario that employers will not like. What will they have in their toolbox other than a bunch of resolutions they choose to draft up, vote on and potentially pass? Under what authority will these resolutions be binding on any employer?
I suspect if the employers find the college is attempting to force an unpopular or unacceptable agenda it won’t take but a few phone calls between carriers and anybody with an affiliation with the college will find their resume in the bin.
Who’s going to sign up and pay dues to an institution that gets ignored and perhaps blackballed by the people that actually due the hiring?
With that, I must give warning - not all employers are, or will be, happy about this.
I’m having a difficult time foreseeing what a collective of self-appointed pilots can possibly do to improve the industry, particularly if it’s potentially going to create a scenario that employers will not like. What will they have in their toolbox other than a bunch of resolutions they choose to draft up, vote on and potentially pass? Under what authority will these resolutions be binding on any employer?
I suspect if the employers find the college is attempting to force an unpopular or unacceptable agenda it won’t take but a few phone calls between carriers and anybody with an affiliation with the college will find their resume in the bin.
Who’s going to sign up and pay dues to an institution that gets ignored and perhaps blackballed by the people that actually due the hiring?
Re: College of Pilots?
Sorry, not familiar with the Contrail reference, someone fill me in.ajet32 wrote:I too fear a "Contrail" type situation where there will be a few limited jobs for the low timer....
As for the College thing, a good deal depends on how it is implemented. I remember the Ontario College of Teacher's coming into being. It was dumped on us by the NDP government of the day and all it did was provide a platform for people who had never done my job, (or at best done it poorly) to tell me how to do my job. Needless to say I wasn't impressed.
Now, if TC is really going to get out of licensing, then it might be a good idea to steal the march and have our organization in place to take it over as opposed to ATAC or some other such group.
Not sure what you mean by a Walmart mentality. Do you mean the people setting up the college think like the managment of Walmart or the employees?jeta1 wrote:Easy, the college is meant to replace all these groups. Once you know who are the leaders of that group, you'll start to understant they have a Walmart mentality.
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Re: College of Pilots?
Last edited by jeta1 on Tue Aug 03, 2010 5:20 am, edited 2 times in total.
- Cat Driver
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Re: College of Pilots?
Does anyone know who the individuals who are working on the foundations of this new group are?
How have they been chosen for their various positions in the new group?
How have they been chosen for their various positions in the new group?
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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Re: College of Pilots?
Any organization that will prevent guys from undercutting each other, buying types or flying Navajo’s, 421's, instructing etc for $15000/year has my full support.
Cat, I happen to know a few of the guys working on forming the college right now. They weren’t exactly chosen for their positions. Just regular guys that were some of the first to get the ball rolling
Cat, I happen to know a few of the guys working on forming the college right now. They weren’t exactly chosen for their positions. Just regular guys that were some of the first to get the ball rolling
I want to die like my grandfather did, peacefully in his sleep. Not screaming in terror like his passengers...
Re: College of Pilots?
From what I understand, they have been "self appointed". Hence, my "contrail" remark. A perfect example of the "tail wagging the dog". I'm happy I'll be out of the business long before this "gleam in someone's eye" has any say, or sway over my future.Cat Driver wrote:Does anyone know who the individuals who are working on the foundations of this new group are?
How have they been chosen for their various positions in the new group?
Re: College of Pilots?
I know who most of those on the Board of Directors are, and have met a few of them in person. While I have no idea how the Board has been chosen officially, from what I have seen it has as much to do with having the ability, time and willingness to be involved - and leave affiliations at the door - as anything else. Some of those on the Board are so far from being "the elite" it makes some of the comments here quite humourous.
As for employers who wouldn't appreciate an employees early involvement, these are likely the same employers who don't appreciate motions toward unions or associations of any kind. Everyone has their own opinion of these types of employers.
As for employers who wouldn't appreciate an employees early involvement, these are likely the same employers who don't appreciate motions toward unions or associations of any kind. Everyone has their own opinion of these types of employers.
Former Advocate for Floatplane Safety
Re: College of Pilots?
So far Widow, would you describe them as a "think tank"? Obviously at this time, the rest of us are totally in the dark as to their methods and intentions. Nobody I know has been informed in any way, how to become involved. I'm worried it may be a group of disgruntled x-employees, or worse yet, a certain group of "whistle blowers"....I hope I'm wrong though.Widow wrote:I know who most of those on the Board of Directors are, and have met a few of them in person. While I have no idea how the Board has been chosen officially, from what I have seen it has as much to do with having the ability, time and willingness to be involved - and leave affiliations at the door - as anything else. Some of those on the Board are so far from being "the elite" it makes some of the comments here quite humourous.
While this industry dearly needs a "helping hand" from somewhere, I can't see a self appointed group, rising from the ashes being really accepted by the masses.
Kind of like..."Here we are....you will now do this...."
Not going to work.
This will hurt some feelings, but I believe it's true. Aviation is a "kiss ass" industry. It'll always be a "kiss ass" industry. As long as we have pilots willing to "buy" jobs, companies forcing pilots into signing long term training bonds, it's going to be "kiss ass".
Companies are just going to tell the "college" to piss off. You'll have to change the pilots before the companies, because the companies are in the driver's seat....and they know it. As long as there's ONE pilot out there, willing to write a cheque for a job, the college idea is dead in the water.
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Re: College of Pilots?
To be successful and efficient these organizations require money, if none of the everyday worker bees in industry have any idea of who these people are or how these people plan on accomplishing something that has never been attempted before at the 703 / 705 level of aviation when are they going to go public and start generating money to get the job done?
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Re: College of Pilots?
I would describe their current status as still being in "think tank" mode, yes. That said, they are doing everything in a most orderly fashion and according to the rules.
As I linked earlier, they have had Industry Canada approval since summer. Some of the more relevant information as to what will be required to work under the TC Safety Partnership Program was quoted on this link: viewtopic.php?f=54&t=56474&p=533879.
Most of the larger unions and associations are already on board, and information is being disseminated within those existing organizations. So the numbers, and the money, are already there.
Everyone on the Board remembers where they came from and how they got to where they are today - good or bad. Their goal was, and is, to have all sectors of the pilot workforce represented on the Board while still in "think tank" mode. So far, from my understanding, everyone has been working together very effectively, with little or no disagreement on key issues.
I know they had hoped to have the website open to the public by this past fall. While this has not happened, it is not a result of any problems, but a result of bureaucracy and attempting to ensure their objectives are perfected beforehand.
I am quite sure the Board members would be happy to answer questions from anyone who is interested, even if that interest does not extend as far as wanting to be involved.
As I linked earlier, they have had Industry Canada approval since summer. Some of the more relevant information as to what will be required to work under the TC Safety Partnership Program was quoted on this link: viewtopic.php?f=54&t=56474&p=533879.
Most of the larger unions and associations are already on board, and information is being disseminated within those existing organizations. So the numbers, and the money, are already there.
Everyone on the Board remembers where they came from and how they got to where they are today - good or bad. Their goal was, and is, to have all sectors of the pilot workforce represented on the Board while still in "think tank" mode. So far, from my understanding, everyone has been working together very effectively, with little or no disagreement on key issues.
I know they had hoped to have the website open to the public by this past fall. While this has not happened, it is not a result of any problems, but a result of bureaucracy and attempting to ensure their objectives are perfected beforehand.
I am quite sure the Board members would be happy to answer questions from anyone who is interested, even if that interest does not extend as far as wanting to be involved.
Former Advocate for Floatplane Safety
Re: College of Pilots?
Of course they're "self appointed", there's no membership yet established to vote them in. I'm sure that when such membership begins to establish itself there will be votes to determine who's in charge. Until than it's kinda hard not to "self appoint" yourself to get this started.
Of course employers will be against this. Any organization or motion towards improving employee quality of life be it pay, benefits, schedules etc impacts employers profits (unless the product is priced properly). I've seen my share of shit operators and even the good ones that cut corners a little and this SHOULD BE BE ALLOWED and if you stand up against it you should not have your lively hood in jeopardy because of it.
Code of ethics, fee guide of some guide and legal aid/support for members should be first on the agenda.
Of course employers will be against this. Any organization or motion towards improving employee quality of life be it pay, benefits, schedules etc impacts employers profits (unless the product is priced properly). I've seen my share of shit operators and even the good ones that cut corners a little and this SHOULD BE BE ALLOWED and if you stand up against it you should not have your lively hood in jeopardy because of it.
Code of ethics, fee guide of some guide and legal aid/support for members should be first on the agenda.
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Re: College of Pilots?
If some of the people who are starting this group are employees of aviation companies who are part of being responsible for the need to bring about changes, what protection do they have from losing their jobs?
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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Re: College of Pilots?
On page one of this thread Widow has provided a link to the college incorporation. This lists the names of the first directors.
Re: College of Pilots?
In reality, there is likely no protection to prevent job loss for involvement in the initiative. I do not know if the same can be said for helping to fight the loss in the courts - unjust dismissal.Cat Driver wrote:If some of the people who are starting this group are employees of aviation companies who are part of being responsible for the need to bring about changes, what protection do they have from losing their jobs?
Pilots who work for employers that would object to the extent of firing for participation, are likely the exact pilots who ultimately need the protection that the CPPC envisages.
But, assuming that the CPPC acquires the 50% membership of affected stakeholders - which doesn't seem far off considering they've got the majors on board already - Transport Canada approval will come. Then it won't matter what your employer thinks.
In the meantime, I agree that it may be a perilous path for someone who works for an "objecting" employer.
But some people are very brave.
Former Advocate for Floatplane Safety
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Re: College of Pilots?
Quote:
" Transport Canada approval will come. "
Why do you need the approval of the body who is supposed to ensure fair and just working conditions in the industry?
If Transport approval is not forthcoming does that mean the idea is dead in the water?
I hope you will cut me some slack here for appearing to be ignorant of the way these things work.
" Transport Canada approval will come. "
Why do you need the approval of the body who is supposed to ensure fair and just working conditions in the industry?
If Transport approval is not forthcoming does that mean the idea is dead in the water?
I hope you will cut me some slack here for appearing to be ignorant of the way these things work.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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Re: College of Pilots?
Cat in simple terms..You can write the best SOP`s ever written, but without TC approval, they are just another useless set of SOPs. This is no different im sure.Cat Driver wrote:Quote:
" Transport Canada approval will come. "
Why do you need the approval of the body who is supposed to ensure fair and just working conditions in the industry?
If Transport approval is not forthcoming does that mean the idea is dead in the water?
I hope you will cut me some slack here for appearing to be ignorant of the way these things work.
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Re: College of Pilots?
Are any of the "College" members currently working in the 703 sector of Canadian aviation? In particular, VFR ops??
Re: College of Pilots?
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Last edited by jeta1 on Mon Jan 04, 2010 5:34 am, edited 1 time in total.