College of Pilots?

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carholme
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by carholme » Wed Dec 30, 2009 3:06 pm

Widow;

This issue has nothing to do with respecting you or not not. I believe you have earned a position on this site and justifiably so with your efforts, however, you said:

Whatever. So I've become one of them. I'm sure TC will be very pleased to learn that I'm on their side now. Oh wait, why would they care? Why would you?

I do find this beneath you and condescending!

I will now withdraw from your area of expertise.

Enjoy your knitting.

carholme
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Doc
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Doc » Wed Dec 30, 2009 3:44 pm

xsbank wrote:I look at this organization as an organization for pilots, but there is little advantage from excluding engineers or dispatchers in the long term.

I think, with the correct leadership, this college is a good idea. I like the idea of a barrier to entry to control the number of pilots and improve the calibre of those who are admitted. I would like to see the practice of 'money-up-front' outlawed. I would like to see the 'training bond' wither away because a 'college member' would have agreed to a code of ethics that would forbid him from breaking his word and would bar him from future employment if he does. I like the idea of a liability fund similar to lawyers and doctors so that pilot's estates may be sued but the widow still gets something. I like the idea of legislated hours of work. I like the idea of the end of the seniority system for promotions. I like the idea of an oversight committee that will make sure that SMS is adhered to and the founding principle will be whistle-blower protection. I like the idea of self-promotion whereby the public will KNOW that a certain firm employs only "professional" pilots who have met certain standards. I like the idea of a professional college advocate who will represent the pilot at tribunals and other court appearances.
And all these wonderful "ideas" you mention? I don't recall giving anybody a mandate to make my decisions for me? "Control the number pilots and improve the caliber of those admitted..."
Okay, whatever you say, Adolph!

"Code of ethics that forbade him from breaking his word....?? There goes freedom of choice. You have heard of freedom of choice? No other "college" FORBIDS" their members from changing employment!!! There's a real gem!

"Money up front, outlawed....." Would that be a "capital" offence?
And, by who's authority? The guys in the basement with laptops??

"Certain companies hire only college members with certain qualifications..." It's been done....it's called "Contrail" Otherwise known as "self righteous elitist pilot group" in my book at least.

Where do you people come up with this crap? You're spending way too much time, staring at you lava lamp, listening to sitars.
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Johnny767
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Johnny767 » Wed Dec 30, 2009 3:47 pm

This discussion is completely, out of hand.

The College is not going to negotiate wages for Pilots or have some ridiculous educational standard for membership.

Where the hell do these things come from?

..and no I cannot prove that TC wants out of Licensing. It is not widely known, most Inspectors are shocked when you run this one by them.

It is one of the issues that started the initial concept for the College. TC approached ACPA (and I believe ALPA) with the idea.

I am - far - from "in the know" on this. Is is simply something that interests me and I have been paying close attention.
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Strega
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Strega » Wed Dec 30, 2009 3:57 pm

The big problem as I see it, is it is too easy to become a pilot in Canada, the standards are just far too low...lets face it, to become a captain of a large transport aircraft you only need to write five pretty simple exams! I would suggest (from my own experience) more than two thirds of all commercial and ATP pilots in Canada are below the average intelligence level.

The reality is some people are just not as smart, and or skillful as others.. This is something that has been "taboo" in Canada for sometime...

Here is a question,,

Why is it a requirment to have been a flight instructor, in order to be a flight test examiner for the issue of a private pilots license?
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by ajet32 » Wed Dec 30, 2009 4:00 pm

XS Bank Where do these ideas come from the socialist workers party or what. This whole idea of regulating who gets in and who can work for who is absolutely nuts. This is trial of the fittest here in Canada and everywhere else in the planet.
Seniority is what it is and so is experience. The idea that some elitist group will run pilots in Canada is so much schiet I almost want to vomit. Get with it folks, get some of them as "Doc " says. You wont change the bond issue or any of the rest since it is market driven and worldwide. They are lining up to buy jobs in Europe and Asia how you figure on changing that.

The whole "Elitist" idea is wrong we are just pilots nothing more nothing less. Deal with it.

This is giving me a headache!
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Doc » Wed Dec 30, 2009 4:01 pm

Widow,
While I know your heart is in the right place, this is not the way to go about helping an industry that really needs some form of help.
This so called "college" will put some smaller "Mom and Pop" companies right out of business, because the money just will not be there to pay the "enforced" minimum wages to their pilots.
You would be taking the freedom of choice from pilots willing to work for the wages offered by these operators.
The very idea of "raising the bar" in regards of the education required to become a pilot makes me want to toss my cookies. Who do these people think they are, and who made them gods over anybody's choice of career??
How do they have any right to "punish" or sanction any pilot?
I hear the term "leadership" tossed around. Again...Who are these guys, and when did I vote for them?
And, where do you enter into this equation, yourself?
I am WAY against this whole "college" idea.
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by jjj » Wed Dec 30, 2009 4:03 pm

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Strega
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Strega » Wed Dec 30, 2009 4:07 pm

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Last edited by Widow on Wed Dec 30, 2009 4:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by armchair » Wed Dec 30, 2009 4:07 pm

Johnny767 wrote:This discussion is completely, out of hand.

..and no I cannot prove that TC wants out of Licensing. It is not widely known, most Inspectors are shocked when you run this one by them.
I thought so....

well JohnnyBoy, since you clearly claimed with bolds and exclamation points! that TC wanted out of licensing, and then when challenged you admitted you can't back it up, then do not wonder why this discussion is out of hand. The reason I say this is because TC getting out of licensing is at the HEART of this whole deal. Without a full pilot licensing delegation, the College will never get past that empty Industry Canada page.

I'll give you kudos to admit you could not back it up though...
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Doc » Wed Dec 30, 2009 4:10 pm

Strega wrote:The big problem as I see it, is it is too easy to become a pilot in Canada, the standards are just far too low...lets face it, to become a captain of a large transport aircraft you only need to write five pretty simple exams! I would suggest (from my own experience) more than two thirds of all commercial and ATP pilots in Canada are below the average intelligence level.
Good point.....you and I got through the five simple exams.
Are the guys leaving the gear up, retracting the gear after landing, hitting trees on missed approaches, running out of gas etc. the ones with below average intelligence? Pretty sure the guys departing off the wrong runway a couple years back, both had university degrees...as did the dip shits who flew the Air Florida 737 into the Potomac? In fact, a degree has been a requirement for most US airlines. They still roll them up in a ball.
Would writing 25 exams make them safer pilots? In your opinion? How about 30 exams, and an IQ of over 120? Would that satisfy the mighty "college"?
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Johnny767 » Wed Dec 30, 2009 4:13 pm

Why don't you do yourself a favor and contact one of the Pilots heading up the College?

Since you are in need of hard proof.
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Rubberbiscuit » Wed Dec 30, 2009 4:15 pm

Strega wrote:

[quote]I would suggest (from my own experience) more than two thirds of all commercial and ATP pilots in Canada are below the average intelligence level./quote]

That's it! I am booking off "stupid" tomorrow!

Doc & ajet I agree with both of you.
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Widow » Wed Dec 30, 2009 4:18 pm

Doc wrote:Widow,
While I know your heart is in the right place, this is not the way to go about helping an industry that really needs some form of help.
<snip>
And, where do you enter into this equation, yourself?
I am WAY against this whole "college" idea.
I'm sorry Doc, but I still believe you are making assumptions. I do not know - and nor do you - that the CPPC plans to attempt control over wages, or to make changes to educational requirements. If they do have such plans, I do not know what they would be ... I've only said that, from what I have seen and heard, and from what I feel, that they are moving in the right direction.

I've not asked anyone to decide if they support the initiative. I've only suggested that if they are interested, they find out more.

I do not fit into the equation, other than as an idealogical supporter of the initial concept. I could change my mind completely when everything goes public. So could you.
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Doc » Wed Dec 30, 2009 4:21 pm

Johnny767 wrote:Why don't you do yourself a favor and contact one of the Pilots heading up the College?

Since you are in need of hard proof.
And, why don't they contact one of us? I'm part of the dog....not the tail trying to wag it!
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Johnny767 » Wed Dec 30, 2009 4:24 pm

Interesting how, ages ago, this discussion was on this board. Widow was asking questions on contact info, expressing a genuine interest.

She is now, far more informed than 99.9% of the Pilots on this Forum.

Then again, she is a very smart girl.

For those chucking sh*t, if you spent a bit of time getting educated, you may have a change of heart.
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Strega » Wed Dec 30, 2009 4:25 pm

Doc,

Would you argue that it is easier to weed out the bad, morons with the current 5 exams, and NO mentorship method? or by putting pilots through 4 years of training with EXPERIENCED instructors? ( and by experienced I dont mean 600 hrs of instructor time) Why not just simply tell people they are not good enough when its clear they are not?
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Doc » Wed Dec 30, 2009 4:31 pm

Widow wrote:
Doc wrote:Widow,
While I know your heart is in the right place, this is not the way to go about helping an industry that really needs some form of help.
<snip>
And, where do you enter into this equation, yourself?
I am WAY against this whole "college" idea.
I'm sorry Doc, but I still believe you are making assumptions. I do not know - and nor do you - that the CPPC plans to attempt control over wages, or to make changes to educational requirements.
My question is a simple one. Who gave them the right to "attempt" to do ANYTHING?? In my book, they have NO rights. Is this concept of "control over your futures" rub anybody else the wrong way?
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Doc » Wed Dec 30, 2009 4:40 pm

Strega wrote:Doc,

Would you argue that it is easier to weed out the bad, morons with the current 5 exams, and NO mentorship method? or by putting pilots through 4 years of training with EXPERIENCED instructors? ( and by experienced I dont mean 600 hrs of instructor time) Why not just simply tell people they are not good enough when its clear they are not?
My good Strega, intelligence has nothing to do with it. Again. Is it the dumb ones who are crashing the airplanes? Because, safety should be the bottom line. Not whether or not you can sit through years of mindless drivel, only to leave the gear in the wells later.
Some people do not have the aptitude for it....but that's up to the individual and his instructor...not 11 guys in a basement somewhere with laptops, trying to control your future.

And Strega, most of the pilots I've met are fairly bright. I do know a few with less than a complete high school education, but I've never found them to be less bright than the college grads. Most have better attitudes than the college grads. That's a general statement, not to say all college grads have bad attitudes, but some do.
I have a degree, and a year of med school, and I'm a total moron! Ya just never know.

Keep in mind Strega, this is not rocket science. If it were, guys like us would be doing something else.....cheers
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Strega » Wed Dec 30, 2009 4:52 pm

but that's up to the individual and his instructor
What happens when the instructor cannot determine the suitability of the candidate?
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Rubberbiscuit » Wed Dec 30, 2009 4:53 pm

Strega wrote:Doc,

Would you argue that it is easier to weed out the bad, morons with the current 5 exams, and NO mentorship method? or by putting pilots through 4 years of training with EXPERIENCED instructors? ( and by experienced I dont mean 600 hrs of instructor time) Why not just simply tell people they are not good enough when its clear they are not?
Exams never saved anybodys life.... directly anyway. Exams proves that you can retain information, nothing else. Experience, common sense, situational awerness and the ability to think rationally in a stressfull situation does.

Darwin himself has a knack for weeding out the "below average intellegence level pilots", such as the ones that attempt flight into IMC with no IFR training or experience, the ones that attempt flight into known icing with no icing equipment, or the ones that believe they can fly through thunderstorms unscaved etc. There is no exam that can erase "get-home itis" and so forth.

In Europe psyche evals are a huge part of the screening before getting into the "off the street and into a 747 programs" they have. Maybe that's next over here?
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by ajet32 » Wed Dec 30, 2009 4:54 pm

I am once again sticking my beak in where it maybe shouldn't. But I agree completely with "Doc" who gave these people the right to do this and why does it seem that their "Elitist BS" appeals to many. It scares the living daylights out of me!

I don't get that at all. This business has very effective ways of weeding out the good from the bad. It also has a mechanism where someone who does fail a Ride or an exam can retrain and prove their abilities. I don't for one second think that any of this should change. As a former Checker I have seen the very best screw an approach in the sim. Would you " Elitist Socialist Folks " then want said individual banned from flying forthwith and forever.

When someone can actually show a need for this "College of Pilots" then I may change my mind. So far all I see is more protectionism and that has never worked in aviation or anywhere else.
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Doc » Wed Dec 30, 2009 4:56 pm

Strega wrote:
but that's up to the individual and his instructor
What happens when the instructor cannot determine the suitability of the candidate?
That's what his CFI is for. Or, you could send the student to Cat Driver for a Cat Scan.....nothing's perfect, Strega.
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Widow » Wed Dec 30, 2009 5:02 pm

Doc wrote:My question is a simple one. Who gave them the right to "attempt" to do ANYTHING?? In my book, they have NO rights. Is this concept of "control over your futures" rub anybody else the wrong way?
Industry Canada gave them the right to build a professional association when they approved the application for incorporation. So they are building a professional association. They are still in the planning stages, hence a lack of public information. Once they are satisfied with their planning, THEN they will go public and you (and I) will know what they are planning to attempt to do. Then, those of you who have not chosen to get involved or get information during the planning stages, will be able to get information, or get involved - or object - to whatever is planned to be attempted.
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by ajet32 » Wed Dec 30, 2009 5:05 pm

As I believe "Doc " mentioned .Last I heard this is a free country. I know of several individuals who have taken more than double the time to complete the requirements of the PPL,CPL and IFR.
If they are willing and it is not unsafe then who are any of us to say they are not allowed to continue the training. It may be wasteful and maybe a Flying School should say you know this might not be for you. legislation of this is neither right nor dare democratic. I think thats what we live in do we not. " A DEMOCRACY"
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Doc » Wed Dec 30, 2009 5:15 pm

Widow wrote:
Doc wrote:My question is a simple one. Who gave them the right to "attempt" to do ANYTHING?? In my book, they have NO rights. Is this concept of "control over your futures" rub anybody else the wrong way?
Industry Canada gave them the right to build a professional association when they approved the application for incorporation. So they are building a professional association. They are still in the planning stages, hence a lack of public information. Once they are satisfied with their planning, THEN they will go public and you (and I) will know what they are planning to attempt to do. Then, those of you who have not chosen to get involved or get information during the planning stages, will be able to get information, or get involved - or object - to whatever is planned to be attempted.
Well, that sure gives me a warm fuzz feeling. Would "Industry Canada" approve my right to form a "professional" association of Street Walkers? Now, there's an industry that REALLY needs the government's learned input. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
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