College of Pilots?

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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by jeta1 » Mon Dec 28, 2009 9:38 pm

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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Widow » Mon Dec 28, 2009 10:11 pm

Do you know who is on the Board of Directors for the CPPC? I do know a few of them, and I'd call them neither elitist, self-interested, nor would I attribute to them a WalMart mentality.
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Hot Fuel » Mon Dec 28, 2009 11:11 pm

I’ll concede and retract my elitist comment it was perhaps premature and a bit over the top. However at this stage of the game I can’t envision how or what this group plans to accomplish. I’ll go back to widow quote…
With that, I must give warning - not all employers are, or will be, happy about this.


I’m having a difficult time foreseeing what a collective of self-appointed pilots can possibly do to improve the industry, particularly if it’s potentially going to create a scenario that employers will not like. What will they have in their toolbox other than a bunch of resolutions they choose to draft up, vote on and potentially pass? Under what authority will these resolutions be binding on any employer?

I suspect if the employers find the college is attempting to force an unpopular or unacceptable agenda it won’t take but a few phone calls between carriers and anybody with an affiliation with the college will find their resume in the bin.

Who’s going to sign up and pay dues to an institution that gets ignored and perhaps blackballed by the people that actually due the hiring?
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by mcrit » Mon Dec 28, 2009 11:19 pm

ajet32 wrote:I too fear a "Contrail" type situation where there will be a few limited jobs for the low timer....
Sorry, not familiar with the Contrail reference, someone fill me in.

As for the College thing, a good deal depends on how it is implemented. I remember the Ontario College of Teacher's coming into being. It was dumped on us by the NDP government of the day and all it did was provide a platform for people who had never done my job, (or at best done it poorly) to tell me how to do my job. Needless to say I wasn't impressed.

Now, if TC is really going to get out of licensing, then it might be a good idea to steal the march and have our organization in place to take it over as opposed to ATAC or some other such group.
jeta1 wrote:Easy, the college is meant to replace all these groups. Once you know who are the leaders of that group, you'll start to understant they have a Walmart mentality.
Not sure what you mean by a Walmart mentality. Do you mean the people setting up the college think like the managment of Walmart or the employees?
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by jeta1 » Tue Dec 29, 2009 9:23 am

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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Cat Driver » Tue Dec 29, 2009 9:42 am

Does anyone know who the individuals who are working on the foundations of this new group are?

How have they been chosen for their various positions in the new group?
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by av8tor_assrope » Tue Dec 29, 2009 9:59 am

Any organization that will prevent guys from undercutting each other, buying types or flying Navajo’s, 421's, instructing etc for $15000/year has my full support.
Cat, I happen to know a few of the guys working on forming the college right now. They weren’t exactly chosen for their positions. Just regular guys that were some of the first to get the ball rolling
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Doc » Tue Dec 29, 2009 10:06 am

Cat Driver wrote:Does anyone know who the individuals who are working on the foundations of this new group are?

How have they been chosen for their various positions in the new group?
From what I understand, they have been "self appointed". Hence, my "contrail" remark. A perfect example of the "tail wagging the dog". I'm happy I'll be out of the business long before this "gleam in someone's eye" has any say, or sway over my future.
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Widow » Tue Dec 29, 2009 10:25 am

I know who most of those on the Board of Directors are, and have met a few of them in person. While I have no idea how the Board has been chosen officially, from what I have seen it has as much to do with having the ability, time and willingness to be involved - and leave affiliations at the door - as anything else. Some of those on the Board are so far from being "the elite" it makes some of the comments here quite humourous.

As for employers who wouldn't appreciate an employees early involvement, these are likely the same employers who don't appreciate motions toward unions or associations of any kind. Everyone has their own opinion of these types of employers.
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Doc » Tue Dec 29, 2009 10:45 am

Widow wrote:I know who most of those on the Board of Directors are, and have met a few of them in person. While I have no idea how the Board has been chosen officially, from what I have seen it has as much to do with having the ability, time and willingness to be involved - and leave affiliations at the door - as anything else. Some of those on the Board are so far from being "the elite" it makes some of the comments here quite humourous.
So far Widow, would you describe them as a "think tank"? Obviously at this time, the rest of us are totally in the dark as to their methods and intentions. Nobody I know has been informed in any way, how to become involved. I'm worried it may be a group of disgruntled x-employees, or worse yet, a certain group of "whistle blowers"....I hope I'm wrong though.
While this industry dearly needs a "helping hand" from somewhere, I can't see a self appointed group, rising from the ashes being really accepted by the masses.
Kind of like..."Here we are....you will now do this...."
Not going to work.

This will hurt some feelings, but I believe it's true. Aviation is a "kiss ass" industry. It'll always be a "kiss ass" industry. As long as we have pilots willing to "buy" jobs, companies forcing pilots into signing long term training bonds, it's going to be "kiss ass".
Companies are just going to tell the "college" to piss off. You'll have to change the pilots before the companies, because the companies are in the driver's seat....and they know it. As long as there's ONE pilot out there, willing to write a cheque for a job, the college idea is dead in the water.
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Cat Driver » Tue Dec 29, 2009 10:55 am

To be successful and efficient these organizations require money, if none of the everyday worker bees in industry have any idea of who these people are or how these people plan on accomplishing something that has never been attempted before at the 703 / 705 level of aviation when are they going to go public and start generating money to get the job done?
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Widow » Tue Dec 29, 2009 11:17 am

I would describe their current status as still being in "think tank" mode, yes. That said, they are doing everything in a most orderly fashion and according to the rules.

As I linked earlier, they have had Industry Canada approval since summer. Some of the more relevant information as to what will be required to work under the TC Safety Partnership Program was quoted on this link: viewtopic.php?f=54&t=56474&p=533879.

Most of the larger unions and associations are already on board, and information is being disseminated within those existing organizations. So the numbers, and the money, are already there.

Everyone on the Board remembers where they came from and how they got to where they are today - good or bad. Their goal was, and is, to have all sectors of the pilot workforce represented on the Board while still in "think tank" mode. So far, from my understanding, everyone has been working together very effectively, with little or no disagreement on key issues.

I know they had hoped to have the website open to the public by this past fall. While this has not happened, it is not a result of any problems, but a result of bureaucracy and attempting to ensure their objectives are perfected beforehand.

I am quite sure the Board members would be happy to answer questions from anyone who is interested, even if that interest does not extend as far as wanting to be involved.
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by teacher » Tue Dec 29, 2009 11:39 am

Of course they're "self appointed", there's no membership yet established to vote them in. I'm sure that when such membership begins to establish itself there will be votes to determine who's in charge. Until than it's kinda hard not to "self appoint" yourself to get this started.

Of course employers will be against this. Any organization or motion towards improving employee quality of life be it pay, benefits, schedules etc impacts employers profits (unless the product is priced properly). I've seen my share of shit operators and even the good ones that cut corners a little and this SHOULD BE BE ALLOWED and if you stand up against it you should not have your lively hood in jeopardy because of it.

Code of ethics, fee guide of some guide and legal aid/support for members should be first on the agenda.
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Cat Driver » Tue Dec 29, 2009 11:46 am

If some of the people who are starting this group are employees of aviation companies who are part of being responsible for the need to bring about changes, what protection do they have from losing their jobs?
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by freakonature » Tue Dec 29, 2009 11:50 am

On page one of this thread Widow has provided a link to the college incorporation. This lists the names of the first directors.
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Widow » Tue Dec 29, 2009 12:20 pm

Cat Driver wrote:If some of the people who are starting this group are employees of aviation companies who are part of being responsible for the need to bring about changes, what protection do they have from losing their jobs?
In reality, there is likely no protection to prevent job loss for involvement in the initiative. I do not know if the same can be said for helping to fight the loss in the courts - unjust dismissal.

Pilots who work for employers that would object to the extent of firing for participation, are likely the exact pilots who ultimately need the protection that the CPPC envisages.

But, assuming that the CPPC acquires the 50% membership of affected stakeholders - which doesn't seem far off considering they've got the majors on board already - Transport Canada approval will come. Then it won't matter what your employer thinks.

In the meantime, I agree that it may be a perilous path for someone who works for an "objecting" employer.

But some people are very brave.
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Cat Driver » Tue Dec 29, 2009 12:27 pm

Quote:

" Transport Canada approval will come. "

Why do you need the approval of the body who is supposed to ensure fair and just working conditions in the industry?

If Transport approval is not forthcoming does that mean the idea is dead in the water?

I hope you will cut me some slack here for appearing to be ignorant of the way these things work.
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by flyinthebug » Tue Dec 29, 2009 12:31 pm

Cat Driver wrote:Quote:

" Transport Canada approval will come. "

Why do you need the approval of the body who is supposed to ensure fair and just working conditions in the industry?

If Transport approval is not forthcoming does that mean the idea is dead in the water?

I hope you will cut me some slack here for appearing to be ignorant of the way these things work.
Cat in simple terms..You can write the best SOP`s ever written, but without TC approval, they are just another useless set of SOPs. This is no different im sure.
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by angry inch » Tue Dec 29, 2009 12:34 pm

Are any of the "College" members currently working in the 703 sector of Canadian aviation? In particular, VFR ops??
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by jeta1 » Tue Dec 29, 2009 1:03 pm

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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Doc » Tue Dec 29, 2009 1:07 pm

flyinthebug wrote:
Cat Driver wrote:Quote:

" Transport Canada approval will come. "

Why do you need the approval of the body who is supposed to ensure fair and just working conditions in the industry?

If Transport approval is not forthcoming does that mean the idea is dead in the water?

I hope you will cut me some slack here for appearing to be ignorant of the way these things work.
Cat in simple terms..You can write the best SOP`s ever written, but without TC approval, they are just another useless set of SOPs. This is no different im sure.
FTB....this should have nothing to do with stuff like SOP's etc. Therefore, nothing to do with TC. I wouldn't even be looking for TC's blessings. Look at the great help (read protection from AH companies) TC has already proven themselves utterly useless at? Any organization by and for pilots should, IMHO at least, be far removed from TC.
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Widow » Tue Dec 29, 2009 1:15 pm

angry inch wrote:Are any of the "College" members currently working in the 703 sector of Canadian aviation? In particular, VFR ops??
Yes.

Holbrook is still on the Board.

To be an association, TC approval is not required - Industry Canada approval is required, and has been acquired. But if the College is to take on oversight of working pilots, they will have to prove to Transport Canada that they are capable of doing so. Of course TC approval will be required.
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by flyinthebug » Tue Dec 29, 2009 1:43 pm

Doc wrote:
flyinthebug wrote:
Cat Driver wrote:Quote:

" Transport Canada approval will come. "

Why do you need the approval of the body who is supposed to ensure fair and just working conditions in the industry?

If Transport approval is not forthcoming does that mean the idea is dead in the water?

I hope you will cut me some slack here for appearing to be ignorant of the way these things work.
Cat in simple terms..You can write the best SOP`s ever written, but without TC approval, they are just another useless set of SOPs. This is no different im sure.
FTB....this should have nothing to do with stuff like SOP's etc. Therefore, nothing to do with TC. I wouldn't even be looking for TC's blessings. Look at the great help (read protection from AH companies) TC has already proven themselves utterly useless at? Any organization by and for pilots should, IMHO at least, be far removed from TC.
I dont disagree at all Doc. But as widow pointed out, they do require Industry Canada approval to even be recognized. Ultimately leading to TC approval. I know its not the idea many of us had about a "college" but hopefully in time we`ll get something figured out.


Just as a sidenote...I am anti-union. I do however believe that a college could work.. much like it does for Doctors, Teachers etc. Isnt the ultimate goal to be recognized as professionals and subsequently paid fairly for it?.
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by flyinthebug » Tue Dec 29, 2009 1:48 pm

Widow wrote:
angry inch wrote:Are any of the "College" members currently working in the 703 sector of Canadian aviation? In particular, VFR ops??
Yes.

Holbrook is still on the Board.

To be an association, TC approval is not required - Industry Canada approval is required, and has been acquired. But if the College is to take on oversight of working pilots, they will have to prove to Transport Canada that they are capable of doing so. Of course TC approval will be required.
Like I said Cat..without TC approval it wont "fly" whether it be SOPs or a pilots college...At least not as its being set up (based on the limited info I have about it). They do seem to be pursuing more of a union then a college. Thats why TC will have oversight of it. To be honest, this is not at all the vision *I* personally had for a college and it would appear maybe im not the only one?.
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by xsbank » Tue Dec 29, 2009 1:54 pm

I'm wondering why there are so many that are paranoid about the operation of a college. Surely, you can see the future of our profession and to me it looks dim. Not only are we currently enduring poor wages, poor working conditions, poor benefits (if any), non-existent pensions; we also face the spectre of security morons ruining our industry despite anything we do. We have fly-by-night operators, antique equipment, serious resistance to change, terrible safety records, moronic regulators, ad nauseum, yet when somebody takes the talk out of the bar and actually attempts to do something about it, we start mooing and bleating like a herd of cattle in a feed lot and speculate wildly about how this couldn't possibly work, it can only ruin our profession!

Think about it. We need help, we are totally incapable of working together, we need organization!!!
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