College of Pilots?

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AEROBAT
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by AEROBAT » Tue Dec 29, 2009 2:02 pm

I would far rather see a college of Canadian pilots oversee Canadian aviation than ICAO.
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Widow » Tue Dec 29, 2009 2:02 pm

flyinthebug wrote:They do seem to be pursuing more of a union then a college. Thats why TC will have oversight of it. To be honest, this is not at all the vision *I* personally had for a college and it would appear maybe im not the only one?
In what way has the information you have led you to believe it is more of a union direction that a college direction? Is Transport Canada approval required to have a union? As far as I know, it is only Industry Canada approval - which is also required for any type of corporation, including professional colleges.

It doesn't matter what industry you work in, any professional College that is to take over accreditation would have to have approval from the Ministry that oversees the industry - in this case Transport. The Safety Partnership Program would seem to be the perfect drawing for getting approval.
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by flyinthebug » Tue Dec 29, 2009 2:39 pm

Thank you for the info widow. It does shed some light.

XS.. I dont think its whining so much as its a debate about "implementation".. not unlike the debate over SMS implementation. Most agree SMS and a "College" are both good ideas, but few can agree on how to implement either. I have said and continue to say that we do need some form of association or college to oversee the industry from "our" perspectives and be our watch dog. We all agree we want improved working conditions, better benefits, better wages espically in 703/704, pensions, etc etc. Its how to go about it that is up for debate.

These gentlemen have now stepped up and taken the reins. Bravo! Ill just sit back and watch for awhile before I make any further comments.

Fly safe.
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Cat Driver » Tue Dec 29, 2009 3:36 pm

xsbank and all the rest of you I am all for a group in aviation that will bring the lower sector of aviation into this century working and safety wise instead of remaining where it is now just barely out of the stone age.

Do not take my questions as being against forming a new group to try and improve aviation.

I am only pointing out the pitfalls of seeking alliance with the status quo that are responsible for the situation as it now is.

Think what you want about me and my attitude but remember I have been there for a long time and when I was part of aviation I did actually do some very positive things to try and improve the industry and there is a verifiable record of it because I did it in the legal system at great cost to myself in time money and loss of employment.....employment I didn't want by the way which was the reason I did what I did.

Be careful and try and keep things simple using existing rules and be careful of who you align yourself with ...remember that old saying " if you lie down with dogs you get fleas."

NOTE::

In no way am I referring to the present group who are forming this college as I have zero knowledge of them nor who they are.


My comments are meant to be general and hopefully helpful.
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Widow » Tue Dec 29, 2009 3:49 pm

Cat Driver wrote:I am only pointing out the pitfalls of seeking alliance with the status quo that are responsible for the situation as it now is.
Approval from TC is not the same as alliance. As everyone knows :smt040
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Cat Driver » Tue Dec 29, 2009 3:54 pm

widow forgive me but I just do not see why you need approval from T.C. to form an independent group of people to ensure compliance to existing laws within said group and to set a safety standard under which the group must operate.

I would be very hard pressed to think of anything T.C. does for me that would compel me to ask for their approval, of course there exists the possibility that I have it all wrong and just don't understand how the system works.

It was not my intent to derail this thread so this will be my last comment in this thread.
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Widow » Tue Dec 29, 2009 4:11 pm

Cat Driver wrote:widow forgive me but I just do not see why you need approval from T.C. to form an independent group of people to ensure compliance to existing laws within said group and to set a safety standard under which the group must operate.
You don't. But you do need TC approval to take over licencing, or any other aspect of oversight duties.
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by ajet32 » Tue Dec 29, 2009 6:35 pm

I keep seeing it written that the big players are on board. Hmm not to sure about that . ALPA represents at least 8 maybe more pilot groups in this country, anyone heard anything from their MEC on this College. The CFPA made some rather outrageous statements about ACPA members a few weeks back. I am not an ACPA member but I wouldn't be pulling for anyone from the CFPA to be representing me anytime soon.

Just my 2 cents .
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by xsbank » Tue Dec 29, 2009 7:12 pm

I don't mean to take personal potshots, in fact I apologize if it seems that way but there seems to be so much trepidation here about a good idea. And for us on this site, that's all it is right now, an idea.

Unions have one single purpose in life, same as a corner store, to make money. Instead of selling milk or beer they sell working conditions and worker's rights. I really don't think that this is the purpose of the college. I could see, if it is successful, paying administrators or some sort of experts out of the dues that the members would pay and I can see some money going towards a defence fund or legal protection of some kind, maybe even a pension scheme - who knows?

As far as licensing goes, the college would not have to bother with that part of the program as it would set its own 'barriers' like an exam equivalent to the bar exam the lawyers have to write to be admitted to "the bar." Don't all get too excited, its not that kind of bar. The exam may not have to be written, perhaps it would be a flight test in a sim. - like I said, who knows? Maybe the test would be grandfathered for high-timers and mandatory for beginners? A 10,000 hour Beaver pilot has different experiences and expectations than a Falcon pilot likely has, but low-timers are still ours to mould.

Licensing could be assimilated when the college was mature enough or ready to take on that role. Even the CBAA, which does licensing for business jets, has been heavily criticized for not getting it right yet - we would have to do better.

Let's hear some comments that are not negative and try and toss around some ideas that might inspire "the fellows" to a successful and interesting conclusion. Getting any 2 pilots to agree on something is difficult at best, let alone organizing an entire country. We need to be positive and help out.
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Doc » Tue Dec 29, 2009 7:56 pm

xsbank wrote:
As far as licensing goes, the college would not have to bother with that part of the program as it would set its own 'barriers' like an exam equivalent to the bar exam the lawyers have to write to be admitted to "the bar."
Licensing could be assimilated when the college was mature enough or ready to take on that role. Even the CBAA, which does licensing for business jets, has been heavily criticized for not getting it right yet - we would have to do better.
What ARE you folks smoking?? Where can I get some.
"an exam equivalent to the bar exam...."
Are you frikken nuts? I expect to see a formation of pigs fly past my window at any moment....
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by GTODD » Tue Dec 29, 2009 8:02 pm

If there is even the slightest chance that the creation of this college would lead to a situation where Commercial Pilots who do not have a degree or diploma from a certain university will no longer be eligible for a large number of jobs, then I am definitely opposed to this idea.

For the many reasons already stated by people like Jeta1, I think it would be smart for anyone who is not a graduate of a school like Seneca to oppose the creation of this college.

For the record I am in favour of improving working conditions, but not at the cost of ruining the careers or preventing the advancement of colleagues of mine in this industry who have worked very hard to be successful.
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Dust Devil » Tue Dec 29, 2009 8:54 pm

Widow wrote:
As for employers who wouldn't appreciate an employees early involvement, these are likely the same employers who don't appreciate motions toward unions or associations of any kind. Everyone has their own opinion of these types of employers.
Ya know that is pretty offensive. What I read out of that is if you don't support unions you are a dirt bag. I was a supporter of your mission and in a way I still am if that mission is trying to make the industry better. But I gotta say I can't support the methods.

The amount of trashing of employers around here is getting out of hand. People make it out like we are up in some ivory tower out there plotting the newest means of killing kittens. A lot of us are just trying to raise or families and get by as well.

There was a comment in another thread about Buffalo Joe living in a 2100 square foot house. Well my place is just over 800 square feet. I guess when this union comes into place they will try forcing me into a shoe box in a closet somewhere.

This isn't about making the industry better it's about socializing the industry.
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by scopiton » Tue Dec 29, 2009 8:56 pm

If some of the people who are starting this group are employees of aviation companies who are part of being responsible for the need to bring about changes, what protection do they have from losing their jobs?
cat,
such a college for instance could help to KNOW your rights as an employee, and with all the respect I owe you, i'm really surprised you don't even know the most important article of the canadian labor code :
employee Division I
Basic Freedoms

Employee freedoms
8. (1) Every employee is free to join the trade union of their choice and to participate in its lawful activities.
http://lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/L-2/page- ... l_I-gb:l_I

this gives a pretty good example of the work that has to be done concerning pilots.
yes you can as an individual manage to obtain better working condition than others, but your personal working conditions will get worse as long as other people with the same qualifications will accept your job for less. Everybody here is always complaining about that, and this college is a chance to have that change.
creating a college to protect and represent pilots' interests in 703/704 and 702 is a very good idea.
as widow said "if" TC recognizes the legitimacy of such an organization, it can have more weights toward employers.
with this representation, employers and this college could agree about a convention insuring minimum wages, respect of duty times regulations, and benefits.
for having worked under a convention in a different industry it worked and I saw a real change within 1 year. suddenly we didn't have to bargain our salary, everybody had a minimum wage which was fair. Over-time had to be discussed but in aviation you have duty time.
the only way to make it work - if TC gives its approval to this organization hence giving this organization more power - is to put those companies' OC in std-by as long as necessary for them to get reorganized to offer decent working conditions.
the target is not pilots and their capabilities to succeed a written exam, but the target should be to find an agreement with companies in order to protect their business and customers : to have pilots qualified for their job, happy to do it and willing to stay. as an employer it's not rocket science, if you want your employees to be loyal, treat them fairly.
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by mcrit » Tue Dec 29, 2009 9:11 pm

GTODD wrote:For the record I am in favour of improving working conditions
That is not what a College is about. A a College is not a union. A College decides who can and who can not do certain things. The College of Physicians and Surgeons decides who can and can't be a doctor. They decide what good medical practice is and administer punishments to doctors that don't meet that standard. The College doesn't do one damned thing to sort out working conditions for doctors; that task is left to the Ontario (or other provincial) Medical Association (which is the doctor's union).
In short, a College is a bureaucracy that will regulate how pilots do their job and punish pilots that don't conform. It will not go to bat for your working conditions. That is what a union is for.
The College may or may not be a good thing for pilots, depending on who sits on the board of governors. If the college does come into being it will take an act of federal parliament, that act will spell out the make up of the board of governors. If that board is made up of qualified pilots elected by the members of the college, then I think that the college will be a good thing. If on the other hand that board is made up of ATAC and government appointees, then it would be a very bad thing for pilots.
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Doc » Tue Dec 29, 2009 9:15 pm

Lets say I'm Company W
I want pilots to pay me thousands of dollars for a job.
Still with me?
I have pilots lined up around the block, ready and willing to pay me for a job.
I can even get them to pay for their next upgrade. The cheques are just flowing in.
Some clown comes in here and tells me I can no longer do that.
Or else.
Or else what? Next girl in line has her cheque book open. Guy behind her? Same story. Another cheque book. The beat goes on.

It's a cute idea. Really. Just like the College of Physicians and Surgeons.
Or, the Ontario College of Nurses. Or, the Ontario College of Teachers.

But we aren't Physicians. We ain't surgeons. We isn't nurses, or teachers. We're pilots. And we eat our young. We'll cheat, lie, connive and do whatever it takes to get in that line, with that cheque book, to pay that company, who will readily and always treat us like crap, deny our vacation requests, freeze our wages, doc our sick pay, because we're pilots.
It'll never fly, Wilbur.
I know it won't, Orville.
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Dust Devil » Tue Dec 29, 2009 9:16 pm

mcrit wrote:
GTODD wrote:For the record I am in favour of improving working conditions
That is not what a College is about. A a College is not a union. A College decides who can and who can not do certain things. The College of Physicians and Surgeons decides who can and can't be a doctor. They decide what good medical practice is and administer punishments to doctors that don't meet that standard. The College doesn't do one damned thing to sort out working conditions for doctors; that task is left to the Ontario (or other provincial) Medical Association (which is the doctor's union).
In short, a College is a bureaucracy that will regulate how pilots do their job and punish pilots that don't conform. It will not go to bat for your working conditions. That is what a union is for.
The College may or may not be a good thing for pilots, depending on who sits on the board of governors. If the college does come into being it will take an act of federal parliament, that act will spell out the make up of the board of governors. If that board is made up of qualified pilots elected by the members of the college, then I think that the college will be a good thing. If on the other hand that board is made up of ATAC and government appointees, then it would be a very bad thing for pilots.
The problem is it has been suggested union dollars are bank rolling this little project. If that is the case then the union is in control. Follow the money and it will lead the the person driving.
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by scopiton » Tue Dec 29, 2009 9:19 pm

We'll cheat, lie, connive and do whatever it takes to get in that line, with that cheque book, to pay that company, who will readily and always treat us like crap, deny our vacation requests, freeze our wages, doc our sick pay, because we're pilots.
and what if this college makes it illegal ? would it still useless ?
the point is here, to draw lines and have them respected.
being a pilot is not a fate. It's a profession and like any other profession, it can be regulated.
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Doc » Tue Dec 29, 2009 9:24 pm

scopiton wrote:
We'll cheat, lie, connive and do whatever it takes to get in that line, with that cheque book, to pay that company, who will readily and always treat us like crap, deny our vacation requests, freeze our wages, doc our sick pay, because we're pilots.
and what if this college makes it illegal ? would it still useless ?
the point is here, to draw lines and have them respected.
Could be wrong here, but does it not take an act of Parliament or something of that nature to make something "illegal"?
Would it be a criminal code offense? Because a bunch of chaps sitting in a room with the word "College" on the door don't happen to agree with the practice?

Keep dreaming that dream.
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by scopiton » Tue Dec 29, 2009 9:26 pm

Keep dreaming that dream.
keep fighting for a dream made things happen, but I could be wrong too.
creating a college could be a first step to legal representation.
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by N181CS » Tue Dec 29, 2009 9:28 pm

"If there is even the slightest chance that the creation of this college would lead to a situation where Commercial Pilots who do not have a degree or diploma from a certain university will no longer be eligible for a large number of jobs, then I am definitely opposed to this idea."
I have to agree with this statement, what would happen to the ones who have no college or university education? Would this become mandatory for future and current pilots? Would there be a cut off at a certain hour or licence mark and grandfather people..................
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by scopiton » Tue Dec 29, 2009 9:31 pm

N181CS wrote:
"If there is even the slightest chance that the creation of this college would lead to a situation where Commercial Pilots who do not have a degree or diploma from a certain university will no longer be eligible for a large number of jobs, then I am definitely opposed to this idea."
I have to agree with this statement, what would happen to the ones who have no college or university education? Would this become mandatory for future and current pilots? Would there be a cut off at a certain hour or licence mark and grandfather people..................
agree witih you too, that's why the target should be employers and find an agreement, but not limitating applicants for a commercial license.
then a pan-canadian pilot association would be more appropriate.
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by george sugar » Tue Dec 29, 2009 11:58 pm

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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by xsbank » Wed Dec 30, 2009 12:49 am

Where did you guys get the weird idea that there is a university or college certificate required in order to join this "college?"
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by toelessjoe » Wed Dec 30, 2009 3:49 am

Cat Driver wrote:Education is obviously a desirable goal for everyone, however there are many ways to educate ones self.

I fail to see why learning to fly using the " old flight school route " is not a very viable route to take, I went that route with very little formal education and did O.K. as a pilot.

Conversely I have had F.O.'s who went the college route who I wouldn't let operate my lawnmower.

If the college route is so good how did those duds get through?

+1 :mrgreen:
I done gooder than some ofthem there smart fellers too!
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by armchair » Wed Dec 30, 2009 7:46 am

mcrit wrote:That is not what a College is about. A a College is not a union. A College decides who can and who can not do certain things. The College of Physicians and Surgeons decides who can and can't be a doctor. They decide what good medical practice is and administer punishments to doctors that don't meet that standard. The College doesn't do one damned thing to sort out working conditions for doctors; that task is left to the Ontario (or other provincial) Medical Association (which is the doctor's union).
In short, a College is a bureaucracy that will regulate how pilots do their job and punish pilots that don't conform. It will not go to bat for your working conditions. That is what a union is for.
The College may or may not be a good thing for pilots, depending on who sits on the board of governors. If the college does come into being it will take an act of federal parliament, that act will spell out the make up of the board of governors. If that board is made up of qualified pilots elected by the members of the college, then I think that the college will be a good thing. If on the other hand that board is made up of ATAC and government appointees, then it would be a very bad thing for pilots.
+1. Wait till all commercial pilots get an extra $100 automatically tagged onto their existing TC licensing/medical processing fee for their "College" membership... then the question on voluntary membership will have been resolved, will it? Oh and those nasty collection agencies too will get into the frey!! We'll see how all "collegiate" we are after that!
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