College of Pilots?

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Hedley
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Hedley » Fri Jul 30, 2010 6:21 am

Pilots are already adequately regulated and licensed by Transport Canada Aviation - we don't need any more of that. We don't need yet another layer of bureaucracy, either private or public sector.

What pilots need is a union, plain and simple, which prevents them from undercutting each other with respect to wages. Pilots are their own worst enemies- hardly a day goes by here on this website, without someone offering to work for free. That's the problem you need to address, because it results in poverty-level wages for entry-level (and even mid-level) pilots.

It won't happen, of course.
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Bede » Fri Jul 30, 2010 6:35 am

Hedley,

But wouldn't a union also be an added layer of bureaucracy?

Not that low wages at the beginning are justified, but there are many other professions that are worse. Teachers often have to volunteer for a year to get interviews for paid positions, firefighters pay $X00 for entrance exams, to which they have a 1% chance of getting hired, not to mention unpaid internships at many companies.
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Hedley » Fri Jul 30, 2010 7:23 am

wouldn't a union also be an added layer of bureaucracy?
For sure - I've paid plenty of union dues in my life. But it's pretty clear what a union does, and doesn't, and no union issues airline transport pilot licences.

Pilots need a union primarily so they can't stab each other in the back, and secondarily to negotiate a reasonable deal with some pretty unpleasant and predatory management. Pilots don't need more licensing/regulatory overhead. God knows we already have enough of that in Canada. IMHO.

As far as sh1t wages being justified at the beginning of the career ... I dunno. I've heard all the arguments about lawyers and doctors interning, but I still don't see what that has to do with paying some guy $15,000 to fly a turbo-prop at a regional, so the president of the company can buy the latest mercedes for both his wife and his mistress.

Someone flying a turbo-prop at a regional is NOT an intern.
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by scopiton » Fri Jul 30, 2010 7:28 am

I agree with you hedley
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by tzu » Fri Jul 30, 2010 7:37 am

Hedley wrote:Pilots need a union primarily so they can't stab each other in the back, and secondarily to negotiate a reasonable deal with some pretty unpleasant and predatory management. Pilots don't need more licensing/regulatory overhead. God knows we already have enough of that in Canada. IMHO.

As far as sh1t wages being justified at the beginning of the career ... I dunno. I've heard all the arguments about lawyers and doctors interning, but I still don't see what that has to do with paying some guy $15,000 to fly a turbo-prop at a regional, so the president of the company can buy the latest mercedes for both his wife and his mistress.

Someone flying a turbo-prop at a regional is NOT an intern.

Well said Hedley! In fact, YOUR POST IS THE ONLY ONE THAT MAKES SENSE (the others are 20+ pages of b/s).
I've never liked or disliked unions, but, seeing how cut-throat this industry is for new AND seasoned pilots, I'd have to agree that a union is the only thing that will change this shit beast of an industry.

Just like you said - Pilots are indeed their worst enemies.
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Heliian » Fri Jul 30, 2010 8:08 am

A union will not solve any problems, just create more. How can you enforce the hiring of unionized staff? Also, if you've ever worked in a union you will know that they only cover the screw-ups. Also, a unionized wage maxes out pretty quickly with no room for reward, everyone gets paid the same, the slackers and the hard working ambitious people. Unions are like Communist countries, good in theory but hardly worth it.
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Rubberbiscuit » Fri Jul 30, 2010 8:38 am

scopiton wrote:to have better educated people applying for flying job you might have to change standards, or the general career path and the industry's mindset. that's why everything won't change right now but in few years.
taking the habit to think long-term should be the pilot's mindset in general, instead of compensating a poor paycheck with hours in the logbook. Personally I don't pay bills with my logbook.
each one his own.
Nothing wrong with improved standards..... as long as it does not mean a lot more hoops to jump through or significantly increased training costs. We all came through meeting the standards more or less, and I would personally feel rotten if was part of making it a lot tougher and much more expensive for new students, than the standards and training that saw me through.

In my generation of pilots whom started close to 20 years ago, a commercial and fresh IFR was widely seen as a ticket to learn You cannot teach the experience that real life commercial flying will provide. Besides... I can't think of many or any operators that would take a 250hr pilot and send him out there single pilot IFR.


I also agree with everything ajet32 and Hedley has said so far.
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scopiton
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by scopiton » Fri Jul 30, 2010 10:53 am

heliian
I understand your argument and your fear but I believe you never really worked for a unionized company.
to guarantee a minimum starting wage, having your days off respected, and not having to fight against your employer to respect your duties and rest period, those are things a union can defend.
it has nothing to do with hard work and reward, who deserves more than the other.
you don't like communism and that's your right, but the industry now looks more like anarchy, which is worst and much more left orientated :wink: .

rubber
I agree with you an IFR is just a ticket to learn. Improving standards can also mean a 250 hrs pilot starting in the industry with a better knowledge of operations, or a better knowledge of Air law. The ignorance about Car's from younger pilots is sometimes stunning and that is not normal. how can you defend yourself and say " I can't" to your boss asking you to do something illegal if you don't even know the law as you should ?
improving standards could also mean a check ride every 6 months, not to renew anything, just a check ride as a refresher concerning procedures, company procedures, aircraft performances and system knowledge, a manual gear extension on jacks just to see how it is for real instead of discovering it in flight, in bad weather, etc etc. I'm sure you get the picture. I'd be curious to know if there's a 703/704 operator in canada who organizes rides on a regular basis just to make sure their pilots are not too rusty, in addition to the ppc renewal ?
And to finish my rant :rolleyes: :mrgreen: , the purpose is not to create a narrower selection, but to improve the standards in an industry who is pulling everything to the bottom line, salary, training, and knowledge.

realistic? may be not - doable ? may be yes.

end of rant :D
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Heliian » Fri Jul 30, 2010 12:41 pm

Hi Scoption, I did work for a union and it was like i said. the entry pay was 32.79/hr and the max for my position was 36.54/hr as per a collective agreement which was only good for 3 years. After that, a wage freeze was mandated, so that was it no more and no less. Albeit the managers made a better wage but they were more easily replaceable. Unions were great for getting us where we are today as in safety in the workplace and better working conditions but now the canada labour board takes care of that. I have just never been a union fan and am happy to be a non-unionized employee now. Slackers and screw-ups love unions and if you think they are sooooo great, have a look at some other industries with unions(ie. USW, CUPE, CAW) they don't seem to be doing too hot shit now eh?

In by no means do I not beleive that skilled professionals should get the pay and respect they deserve but maybe starting anew from the bottom, like a "college of pilots" would work. There are still too many pilots and not enough jobs though, a friends son just came out of MFC with 190hrs and a CPL but there is just no work out there, he is currently loading boxes for fedex which maybe one day will translate into some stick time. As I see it, unless you are willing to lower your standards and beg and grovel for your first job, you will just be one of the many CPL's here complaining about no wages and no jobs. Life is not fair.

Have a great long weekend everyone!
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Hedley » Sat Jul 31, 2010 5:21 am

too many pilots and not enough jobs though, a friends son just came out of MFC with 190hrs and a CPL but there is just no work out there, he is currently loading boxes for fedex
Indeed. IMHO they should shut down the pilot puppy mills (aviation diploma colleges) for 5 or 10 years, but as long as there are kids lined up with $50,000 burning a hole in their pocket, someone's gonna take it from them.
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by DaveC » Wed Aug 08, 2012 7:32 pm

Hedley wrote:
too many pilots and not enough jobs though, a friends son just came out of MFC with 190hrs and a CPL but there is just no work out there, he is currently loading boxes for fedex
Indeed. IMHO they should shut down the pilot puppy mills (aviation diploma colleges) for 5 or 10 years, but as long as there are kids lined up with $50,000 burning a hole in their pocket, someone's gonna take it from them.
What does the $50,000 have to do with anything? I did my PPL at a FTU (which is also operates a diploma college), self studied the CPL, and will be going back to the FTU for the MIFR. It will end up costing me close to as much as the 'puppy mill' students did, and it's arguable that they are better pilots because they live, eat, and shit flying.
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Gilles Hudicourt
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Gilles Hudicourt » Thu Aug 09, 2012 5:00 am

Hedley wrote:
too many pilots and not enough jobs though, a friends son just came out of MFC with 190hrs and a CPL but there is just no work out there, he is currently loading boxes for fedex
Indeed. IMHO they should shut down the pilot puppy mills (aviation diploma colleges) for 5 or 10 years, but as long as there are kids lined up with $50,000 burning a hole in their pocket, someone's gonna take it from them.
You want to provide the Ministers of Citizenship and Immigration Canada (CIC) and of Human Resources and Skills Development Canada (HRSDC) some good excuses for handing even more hundreds of Work Permits to Foreign Pilots to work at Sunwing and Canjet on the basis that there is a shortage of qualified pilots in Canada?. In France, where the local government protects the local work force, one can artificially create a shortage of pilots in order to better the salaries and work conditions of local pilots. France is one of the countries where it is the hardest to become a commercial or airline pilot, because the written exam standards are very high, and thanks to that, the prestige of the profession, as well as the salaries and work condition are among the highest in the World.

But we are in Canada. If this college of Professional Pilots was somehow able to take control of any aspect of the profession in order to raise the standards of training, making it harder to become a pilot, the Canadian Government would just open the Work Permit valves and allow hundreds of Foreign pilots into Canada, as it already does even though there is obviously no shortage of pilots. Which is why preventing this practice of foreign pilots must me one of the mandates of the College of Professional Pilots. They have no choice.

These days, several airlines in Canada are Wet-Leasing foreign aircraft whose only requirements for TC are that they meet ICAO standards. Sunwing is using Czech and Portuguese aircraft, Westjet is using British aircraft. Nothing in the regulations prevents them from using an airline from Haiti, Sierra Leone or from Myanmar.

This being said, I approve the idea of the College of pilots but its going to be a long uphill battle to turn this College into a meaningful pilots association with any bearing on pilot the profession, its training and its work conditions. They are going to have to have a voice in more than training.......

The French system is by no means perfect in pilot training, but it does have some good aspects to it. First, in France to be a pilot, you need a "Baccalaureat", which is roughly equivalent to a two year degree here, or a CEGEP in Quebec. They also require advanced math, which is useless and is only there to eliminate many good people. But the French pilot has a general culture that the average Canadian pilot lacks and needs. It takes much more than being able to make a CAT II approach at minimums to be a competent captain of a large commercial jet. The decisions one has to make often involve some medical knowledge, some political knowledge, some cultural knowledge, some religious knowledge, some historical knowledge, some financial knowledge, and much more which a better education caters to. In my book, airline pilots who do not read at all, even aviation material, have no business in the cockpit.


To sum it up, I am for the College of Professional pilots, and I hope they will not only raise the standards of pilots in Canada but make sure that these standards are also applied to any foreign pilots who are admitted into Canada.

Recently some people posted in this very Forum that several Czech pilots who had come to fly Canadian Registered aircraft for Sunwing failed their Canadian PPCs and were sent home. Then one month later, Sunwing Wet-Leased an aircraft from the same airline these failed pilots were working for, and the leased aircraft arrived in Canada with some of the failed pilots at the controls. Under a Wet-Lease, they were no longer required to pass a Canadian PPC, came under a Canadian Transportation Agency (CTA) Decision and were only required to meet ICAO and their home country's standards, which they did........ and on that basis, they flew Canadian passengers, for Canadian Airlines from Canada although one month earlier they were found incompetent to fly a Canadian registered aircraft of the same type and model......
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by goingmach_1 » Thu Aug 09, 2012 11:06 am

Hedley wrote:
too many pilots and not enough jobs though, a friends son just came out of MFC with 190hrs and a CPL but there is just no work out there, he is currently loading boxes for fedex
Indeed. IMHO they should shut down the pilot puppy mills (aviation diploma colleges) for 5 or 10 years, but as long as there are kids lined up with $50,000 burning a hole in their pocket, someone's gonna take it from them.
Hedley,

I troll trough this web site time to time, and I have to say when I read your comments I agree most of the time. However this comment I just have to argue.

As person paid for for my services, pilot, I have had the oppurtunity to work with many other like minded pilots, and for the most part we are the same. Operate a machine for the benifit of a owner.

Saying that, I can say from my perpesctive, those who have been through a college training enviroment are certainly more prepared to be in a cockpit than those of us who have done the FTU route. Your comment about a Puppy Mill is kind of derogatory in my opinion.

There is no doubt we need new pilots. If they can be trained proffessionally then I believe this is the better education.

Respectively, your comment is a little out of context to the thread, and I know that, but as a contributor to this forum who has alot of repect, I encourage you to think broadly when commenting.

In light of this thread, College of Pilots, those of us who are being paid for our services should consider this important first step. It takes a brave person to make a dramatic change, I for one, have joined. What is possibly the harm. It will not come out of the box perfectly, but its a first step. Think of all the first steps in your life. Now think of think first BIG for us as aviators. We have a chance to make History here.

If you are a paid pilot, $50 bucks is a mere tip. I encourage all of us to try to make a first step.

Bikering aside, we all need some sort of organized standard.
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Cat Driver » Thu Aug 09, 2012 11:34 am

Saying that, I can say from my perpesctive, those who have been through a college training enviroment are certainly more prepared to be in a cockpit than those of us who have done the FTU route. Your comment about a Puppy Mill is kind of derogatory in my opinion.
Interesting opinion and it gets me to wondering how better prepared these new pilots are for the cockpit than those of us who went through the FTU route.

From my time in airplanes the only difference I noticed was the college types were more difficult to train in the real world of flying than the FTU graduates.......mind you they did think they knew it all...I'll give them that.

I went into aviation with very little formal education and it did not seem to be a hindrance in my advancement through the system.
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Gilles Hudicourt » Fri Aug 10, 2012 5:39 am

Cat Driver wrote:
Saying that, I can say from my perpesctive, those who have been through a college training enviroment are certainly more prepared to be in a cockpit than those of us who have done the FTU route. Your comment about a Puppy Mill is kind of derogatory in my opinion.
Interesting opinion and it gets me to wondering how better prepared these new pilots are for the cockpit than those of us who went through the FTU route.

From my time in airplanes the only difference I noticed was the college types were more difficult to train in the real world of flying than the FTU graduates.......mind you they did think they knew it all...I'll give them that.

I went into aviation with very little formal education and it did not seem to be a hindrance in my advancement through the system.
You may just have a very narrow view as to what a "good" pilot it. To think and state that less formal education can somehow be better than more education is a bit far fetched.......

That reminds me of that captain who landed in Dublin thinking he was in the UK, called his Irish driver "English" and was surprised when the driver refused to be paid in British Pounds.......
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by CanadianEh » Fri Aug 10, 2012 7:07 am

I just signed up in the College Pilots, I think it's worth supporting this initiative and that change will only come if everyone (or the majority) gets on board.
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Cat Driver » Fri Aug 10, 2012 8:46 am

You may just have a very narrow view as to what a "good" pilot it.


Not really, my view of what a "good" pilot is based on performance over a long time period and what pay said pilot was able to demand and get.
To think and state that less formal education can somehow be better than more education is a bit far fetched.......
Where did I say less formal education was better than more?

All I stated was the simple plain fact that the education requirements to be a pilot are low to non existent because flying an airplane is not a difficult task that requires anymore education than that needed to write the exams.
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Meatservo » Fri Aug 10, 2012 11:27 am

Gee, Cat, for a not-too-difficult task, flying certainly seems to be something you spend a lot of time thinking about. If it's not difficult, then why do you presume to ask for so much money teaching people how to do it? Isn't it easy? If it is, who needs a guy like you to show people how to do it?

Imagine all the things you'd have to say if you had been well-educated enough to have a difficult profession!

It's just that you can't have your cake and eat it too. You can't go around telling everyone how easy it is and then expect anyone to pay you very much for it. You can't try to capitalize on the respect you think you've earned as a pilot while at the same time acting like you haven't achieved anything special.

This is the problem; you've got guys like Air Canada captains posting pictures of their eight-year-old daughters "flying" the simulator, and then turning around and whingeing that they don't get any respect from management for their "abilities". I can guarantee you that the executive and government types who are constantly trying to save money and trouble by undermining and marginalizing the flying profession are NOT going around talking about how easy THEIR jobs are. Quite the opposite, in fact. Self-aggrandizement has worked out really well for those douches. The pilots could do worse than to at least tread the middle ground and develop some self-respect. People hire uneducated immigrants and school kids to do "easy" jobs and pay them like crap. They hire professionals for the hard ones and pay them well. You guys are never going to get any respect until you respect yourselves and stop going around boasting about how easy you find your duties. If I was the boss I'd give you something harder to do if you're that understimulated; or I'd find someone to do the "easy" job who whines less and doesn't want as much money.
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by DaveC » Fri Aug 10, 2012 11:37 am

Meatservo wrote:Gee, Cat, for a not-too-difficult task, flying certainly seems to be something you spend a lot of time thinking about. If it's not difficult, then why do you presume to ask for so much money teaching people how to do it? Isn't it easy? If it is, who needs a guy like you to show people how to do it?

Imagine all the things you'd have to say if you had been well-educated enough to have a difficult profession!

It's just that you can't have your cake and eat it too. You can't go around telling everyone how easy it is and then expect anyone to pay you very much for it. You can't try to capitalize on the respect you think you've earned as a pilot while at the same time acting like you haven't achieved anything special.

This is the problem; you've got guys like Air Canada captains posting pictures of their eight-year-old daughters "flying" the simulator, and then turning around and whingeing that they don't get any respect from management for their "abilities". I can guarantee you that the executive and government types who are constantly trying to save money and trouble by undermining and marginalizing the flying profession are NOT going around talking about how easy THEIR jobs are. Quite the opposite, in fact. Self-aggrandizement has worked out really well for those douches. The pilots could do worse than to at least tread the middle ground and develop some self-respect. People hire uneducated immigrants and school kids to do "easy" jobs and pay them like crap. They hire professionals for the hard ones and pay them well. You guys are never going to get any respect until you respect yourselves and stop going around boasting about how easy you find your duties. If I was the boss I'd give you something harder to do if you're that understimulated; or I'd find someone to do the "easy" job who whines less and doesn't want as much money.
+1
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Gilles Hudicourt » Fri Aug 10, 2012 11:39 am

Cat Driver wrote: Where did I say less formal education was better than more?
Here:
Cat Driver wrote:.....I noticed was the college types were more difficult to train in the real world of flying than the FTU graduates
That also reminds me of the US Airways pilot who refused to fly with three Sikh singers on board, thinking they were some sort of Muslim terrorists. They sued US Airways for it, and of course they won. I'm certain the guy could shoot great ILS approaches and knew how to enter a hold, but a bit more formal and cultural education would have saved this pilot's employer a few million bucks, and some embarrassment. There is much more to being a good captain than shooting an ILS.
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Cat Driver » Fri Aug 10, 2012 12:51 pm

Cat Driver wrote:
Where did I say less formal education was better than more?

Here:
Cat Driver wrote:
.....I noticed was the college types were more difficult to train in the real world of flying than the FTU graduates
Gilles, you are obviously having some difficulty with understanding what I wrote......read it again...

I was expressing an opinion based on some exposure to " some " college types.

I do not recall ever stating that I am opposed to higher education....I have stated that I was not fortunate enough to have had the opportunity to have gone beyond grade eight.

So......based on my own experience in aviation it is evident that grade eight was sufficient for me to have had the ability to understand the necessary factors to become a working pilot and stay in the industry as a working pilot for over half a century.
There is much more to being a good captain than shooting an ILS.
Of course there is........but one does not need to be a graduate of a Canadian aviation college to have those abilities.
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by ea306 » Fri Aug 10, 2012 1:09 pm

You know what...

I was having coffee with Capt Chuck this morning. I had to laugh when he described to a T what it is like flying out of European Airspace and what Bosnia looks like at night when you fly by at FL410.

Maybe guys can chill a bit and try and understand the context in which he posted.

Have a great day!


ea306
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Indanao » Fri Aug 10, 2012 1:18 pm

I had a student one time who had 450 hours Flying Time, and had never taken a Flying Lesson - ever. He just bought a C172 and taught himself how to Fly. I had a satellite school in Hinton and he came wanting to get a Pilot License. Other than getting him to discontinue some bad habits, he was better than most people I flew with. But, he couldn't read. Got him through the Flight Test, but he never got through the written. ( I met his brother a couple months later - he Flew Fighters for the Military at that time. )

A certain amount of natural ability is necessary to Fly well. Education...not so much.
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Jean-Luc Monette » Fri Aug 10, 2012 2:00 pm

Meatservo wrote:
It's just that you can't have your cake and eat it too. You can't go around telling everyone how easy it is and then expect anyone to pay you very much for it. You can't try to capitalize on the respect you think you've earned as a pilot while at the same time acting like you haven't achieved anything special.

This is the problem; you've got guys like Air Canada captains posting pictures of their eight-year-old daughters "flying" the simulator, and then turning around and whingeing that they don't get any respect from management for their "abilities". I can guarantee you that the executive and government types who are constantly trying to save money and trouble by undermining and marginalizing the flying profession are NOT going around talking about how easy THEIR jobs are. Quite the opposite, in fact
+1 000 000!
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Johnny#5 » Fri Aug 10, 2012 4:18 pm

Blah blah blah.....

Just join the College you cheap fuckers!!!!!!!!
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