College of Pilots?

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flyinthebug
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by flyinthebug » Wed Dec 30, 2009 8:08 am

xsbank wrote:Where did you guys get the weird idea that there is a university or college certificate required in order to join this "college?"
I was wondering the same thing?? Where did anyone ever say you would require a college or university degree, in order to join the "college"? I dont think anyone suggested that? Lets not confuse a college with a college ;)

Doc..I dont agree with you at all on this one. A College, set up and run properly could do wonders for the industry. Most pilots consider ourselves to be professionals and therefore a professional "association" would be appropriate. Like i said, Im just going to sit back and see how this develops before making any decisions on it. I do think that it would need support from people with your experience and dedication to the industry. Dont be so quick to shoot it down, at least until all the facts are in. For clarity, im seeking a college much like the docs, nurses, teachers etc have. NOT a union! Unions are for the weak and lazy and that will NEVER change. A college of professionals is a completely different animal.

Fly safe all.
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by teacher » Wed Dec 30, 2009 8:21 am

People wouldn't be lining up to pay employers for jobs or work for sub standard (below fee guide) wages if it meant they would not be able to hold their license anymore (or got violated be the CPPC). The doctor, dentist and law Colleges all have a sliding scale of punishments for not adhering the rules. They can range from a letter to loss of license. This would be the only way to reign in our self destructive ways.

I also severely doubt that College or University will be required considering the nature of our industry in Canada.
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ajet32
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by ajet32 » Wed Dec 30, 2009 8:49 am

The thing that scares me is talk of this group being responsible for licencing. Where in the ICAO Annex does it absolve the regulator of that, I am standing ready to be corrected. Our licence is barely recognized in the EU (unless you have 1500 hours PIC on large jet or turboprop you write 14 exams). Now do we want to degrade it more. Improving the standard is a great idea if it is recognized outside of Canada.
A large number of Canadian pilots work offshore and many use their Canadian ICAO Lic as the basis for a foreign validation.
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Doc
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Doc » Wed Dec 30, 2009 9:28 am

teacher wrote:People wouldn't be lining up to pay employers for jobs or work for sub standard (below fee guide) wages if it meant they would not be able to hold their license anymore (or got violated be the CPPC).
And, just who will grant the "CPPC" such sweeping powers? The Wizard or OZ?
I totally agree, there need to be great changes to this industry. I'm all for a country wide "pilot's association", but it need's to be IMHO more along the lines of a "union" type of set up. Or an association. Not another "regulator", which is exactly what a professional "college" is set up as. "(or got violated by the CPPC)"
A "college" can't "issue" licenses, therefore would have no power to revoke, or suspend them. We don't need more exams. We need more common sense.
Swinging at windmills can be a good thing.....ya just got to swing at the right windmill...
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by N181CS » Wed Dec 30, 2009 10:04 am

The idea of going to "college" come from the idea that they might raise the bar significantly. Not to say its a bad thing, however it has happened before
1) I applied to be a police officer here in Ontario and was told without a diploma or degree I could forget about it, on the other hand my father had been a cop and he never finished high school. Has any of this produced a better police officer for the most part? I would vote no.

2) Ontario has made it a requirement to a) Hold a Grade 12(not a bad thing at all) but its not retroactive to those who do not. b) go to a registered private career college.

I am not opposed to the idea of higher standards but how would that be implemented and could it take people who are in the system and force them out?
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carholme
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by carholme » Wed Dec 30, 2009 10:13 am

There seems to be a lot of confusion whether this is going to be a college, union, association or whatever.

What intrigues me is that this corporation came into effect on April 20/09, eight months ago. Presumably,the directors on the board at incorporation are the "Interim Directors" to get the show up and running and then
with an established membership, to offer elections for the board positions. That does not appear to have happened. People have mentioned the possibility that they are waiting approval from TC for handling of the Licensing process, other affiliations with TC, etc., etc.

Whatever the reason for eight months passing with nil information provided publicly, I must ask if any of you have received requests from the organization asking for your opinions on anything? After all, if it is going to beyour "college", one would surmise that the “Interim Directors” may want to hear your opinions about how to proceed.

Widow says that she knows some of the people involved and offers to put you in touch with them. What good is that going to do? Those involved people are the ones who should be updating you, the pilot community with some information about what is happening or going to happen, regarding your futures.

Then again, if it is already happening without your input, maybe you should be careful about what you ask for, your future may already be in place.

Then again, I am just a mechanic. What am I doing in such an exalted place as this?

carholme
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Johnny767
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Johnny767 » Wed Dec 30, 2009 11:06 am

The concept of the "College," is DEFINITELY NOT a Union.

There will be members that belong to ALPA, ACPA and every other walk of Professional Pilot.

The reason they have looked into Licensing is because - Transport Canada has made it known that they want out of it.

So, the concern is who takes it over? Frankly, I am all for the College handling Licensing.
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Dust Devil » Wed Dec 30, 2009 11:18 am

carholme wrote:There seems to be a lot of confusion whether this is going to be a college, union, association or whatever.

What intrigues me is that this corporation came into effect on April 20/09, eight months ago. Presumably,the directors on the board at incorporation are the "Interim Directors" to get the show up and running and then
with an established membership, to offer elections for the board positions. That does not appear to have happened. People have mentioned the possibility that they are waiting approval from TC for handling of the Licensing process, other affiliations with TC, etc., etc.

Whatever the reason for eight months passing with nil information provided publicly, I must ask if any of you have received requests from the organization asking for your opinions on anything? After all, if it is going to beyour "college", one would surmise that the “Interim Directors” may want to hear your opinions about how to proceed.

Widow says that she knows some of the people involved and offers to put you in touch with them. What good is that going to do? Those involved people are the ones who should be updating you, the pilot community with some information about what is happening or going to happen, regarding your futures.

Then again, if it is already happening without your input, maybe you should be careful about what you ask for, your future may already be in place.

Then again, I am just a mechanic. What am I doing in such an exalted place as this?

carholme
Union or not this is a tactic often seen by unions. They often want to keep as many people in the dark as possible. Being from Saskatchewan we see this all the time.

I see this as something worse than a union. This is a union seeking to also be the regulator. I can't think of a union that actually has regulatory power.

I'm sure there is as much misinformation about this organization as there is truth about it in this thread. The best thing they could do for itself is provide some information about themselves. However after 8 months and nothing has been released yet makes this very suspicions.
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Doc » Wed Dec 30, 2009 11:47 am

So, just so I have this straight. You guys think it's a wonderful idea to have five or six guys, sitting in their mom's basement with laptops, unilaterally telling you what qualifications you need, who you can and can't work for with certain qualifications, how much money you can and can't make?
You think it's Okay to be, basically "controlled" by a small group of persons, unknown to you on all aspects of your chosen career? To be told what education you need? What exams you must write? What license you can/are qualified to hold?
To quote a line from Butch Cassidy and The Sundance Kid....."Who are those guys?"
Count me OUT.
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by ajet32 » Wed Dec 30, 2009 11:55 am

"DOC" I'm with you. Lets see who these guys are and what they really want. Are they a bunch of bitter I didn't get hired at so and so guys or are they actually some folks with a bit of real experience.

This is a "dog eat dog" "pilot stab pilot" " Kiss ass who do you know" business in Canada and anyone who doesn't realize that should perhaps think of a career change.

Oh and its worse in Europe where you pay to learn to fly then pay again for your type rating and or sign 5-7 year bonds for Airbus and Boeing jobs. They are lining up to work for the likes of Ryanair so go figure.
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flyinthebug
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by flyinthebug » Wed Dec 30, 2009 12:00 pm

Wait a min. Im really starting to think we are talking about two completely seperate issues here. I agree with the last two comments so if that is the goal of this new college, id have to be counted out as well. Somehow, I dont think thats whats occuring but I reserve comment until we see. Can anyone offer any new information on what this college is all about? The speculation is painful!
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Widow » Wed Dec 30, 2009 12:16 pm

ajet32 wrote:The thing that scares me is talk of this group being responsible for licencing. Where in the ICAO Annex does it absolve the regulator of that, I am standing ready to be corrected.
TCCA has delegated oversight of business aviation to the CBAA. Under the Safety Partnership Program, the door is open to do the same for any sector of the industry (AMEs!!!). There is nothing to prevent TC from filing a difference with ICAO (although there is nothing that says they have to, either - they didn't bother doing so with respect to the fatigue directive in November).
carholme wrote:What intrigues me is that this corporation came into effect on April 20/09, eight months ago.
April 20 was the date the application for incorporation was received by Industry Canada, approval was not acquired until June 30th. The BOD has since grown, I can think of 11 people, including a treasurer and regional directors.

Either way, I don't know how you can call eight months a long time when there is so much bureaucracy involved. Although TC approval would have to take place, the Justice Department would have to be involved for drafting legislation. Consultations are ongoing with stakeholders, including various flight schools. None of this happens overnight, or even in eight months time.

Would it really be acceptable for the CPPC to make everything public when they themselves have not go everything sorted out yet? Perhaps they want to ensure that the majority will be happy about their objectives, that they've been perfected as much as possible, before going public.

I'm sure when they are ready, all the information desired will be readily available - and that will be before any legislation is tabled, which will likely take years. There will be plenty of chance to participate or object in the near future.

Everyone should take a deep breath.
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Johnny767 » Wed Dec 30, 2009 12:24 pm

Would you rather some kind of group of Employers control licensing, or a group of your peers?

Maybe Buffalo Joe can be Prez?

End of the day, TC has said they want out!

This is somewhat modeled after the Chartered Accountants. Pilots just can't get past petty envy and distrust of their fellow Aviators. This group is being spearheaded by some exceptional Pilots, making an effort to take (...what is left of this career) and make a difference.

It is hardly going to be run out of your Mothers basement!
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by armchair » Wed Dec 30, 2009 12:28 pm

Johnny767 wrote:The reason they have looked into Licensing is because - Transport Canada has made it known that they want out of it.
Johnny767 wrote:End of the day, TC has said they want out!

Can you provide evidence of this (verifiable and documented) that TC wants out of pilot licensing?
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by MrWings » Wed Dec 30, 2009 12:34 pm

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Doc
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Doc » Wed Dec 30, 2009 12:40 pm

Widow wrote:
ajet32 wrote:The thing that scares me is talk of this group being responsible for licencing. Where in the ICAO Annex does it absolve the regulator of that, I am standing ready to be corrected.
TCCA has delegated oversight of business aviation to the CBAA.
carholme wrote:What intrigues me is that this corporation came into effect on April 20/09, eight months ago.
April 20 was the date the application for incorporation was received by Industry Canada, approval was not acquired until June 30th. The BOD has since grown, I can think of 11 people, including a treasurer and regional directors.
I'm sure when they are ready, all the information desired will be readily available -
I stand corrected, there are 11 people in their mom's basement with laptops. And, their are going to change the entire industry? Under who's authority? I don't remember "voting" anyone into office. Last time I looked, Canada was still a democracy. Perhaps, this has changed while I slept? They have "regional directors"? Of what exactly are these people "directors" of?
"When they are ready, all the information desired will be readily available......." Sounds like a "special interest group" to me. How do we know if ANY of our interests are being addressed? They will address only what THEY think are the issues. The rest of us will be stuck with it. Again, I'm OUT. Und zen ve vill follow ze orders of ze Fuhrer!!
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by ajet32 » Wed Dec 30, 2009 12:48 pm

Canada has already failed an ICAO audit regarding safety and flight and duty times. We have some of the highest allowable duty rigs anywhere in the "First World" Taking regulation away from the regulator and giving it to a pilot group will just make us even more of a laughing stock overseas than we are becoming. Canadian pilots are very highly regarded internationally . I really hope this "College" doesn't diminish our reputation.
"Better get that FAA "ATPL" done in case I need it I suppose.

Just because TC wants out doesn't mean they will get out. They are already looking at the CBAA and how they are performing some audits and just how well those said audits are really going.

I guess before I get dumped on some more, question to "Widow" since you are such a supporter.

"WHY" What is the goal of this "College of Pilots"
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Widow » Wed Dec 30, 2009 12:59 pm

Doc, with respect, you and several others are jumping to conclusions based on (a justified) cynicism. If there is even a tiny bit of you that thinks - if done the right way - this couldn't work, why not reserve judgement until all the facts are out? The folks on the Board are far from wannabes, and meetings have been live all over the country.

And yes, this is still a democracy. If you read the Safety Partnership Programs Framework, you will see there would have to be a majority of stakeholders in support for it to be a go.

Ajet32, I have seen a draft version of the Mission Statement, and I'm sure the final will be on the website when it goes live. As will the Code of Ethics. In the meantime, I can only refer you to my statement during the Round Table back in April.
I know there is a small group of pilots who, perhaps discouraged by the lack of regulatory initiative, are trying to form a professional college whose goals are to promote safety standards, training standards, technical issues and accredit Canadian pilots from the youngest commercial pilot to the Airline Transport Pilot near the end of his career. They are the aviation experts who wish to fill an obvious void - the void into which safety concerns fall due to the lack of filter, if you will, between Transport Canada and the owners and operators. Their goals, if adopted, will go a long way to ensuring Canada has the best trained pilots and a safer industry.
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by ywgflyboy » Wed Dec 30, 2009 1:04 pm

Considering all their website consists of is a picture I think you are all being high immature and a little quick to jump to conclusions here. Screw your heads on right and wait until your accusations are backed up by solid information.
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Doc » Wed Dec 30, 2009 1:05 pm

All you people see is "tangerine trees, and marmalade skies..."

This "college" is not the answer to your prayers. Kudos to the chaps who are giving it a try....BUT

The answer to your prayers is a simple one,

Grow a set of BALLS! Too simple for you? You expect a small group of people you don't even know, to swoop in on capes and save YOUR industry? And yet, you people don't have the Balls to say "NO" to handing over large sums of money to "buy" jobs with companies who could give a Royal Rat's Ass about YOU!
YOU allow these same companies to "pressure" you into unsafe conditions? YOU'RE the PROBLEM here. YOU always have been THE problem here. Stand up for YOURSELF. Don't wait for several years for somebody to waltz in and screw up, what could have been a great industry, if only YOU had a pair of BALLS!!!

But I guess it's just easier to have somebody else wipe your ass for you, isn't it. Bloody Jam Tarts!
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by carholme » Wed Dec 30, 2009 1:12 pm

Widow;

Take a deep breath yourself!! If you and Johnny are so in the know, why are so many people on here confused about what is going on. You tease with your inside knowledge, yet say nothing.

Never mind trying to impress the crowd with your contacts, that is just name-dropping. If you have those contacts, maybe you should be advising them of the disgruntled masses and get them to publish some information about what is happening.

Once again, the aviation gods (that they think they are) are setting the agenda and by the time the cement has dried, everything will be in place and the membership (if there is any left) will have to deal with an agenda set by the few.

Think back to HEPAC, when they decided they were going to take over SMS and the licensing of the helicopter industry. They too refused to divulge any information to those asking questions until those people paid for memberships.
Wonder where HEPAC is now?

This is not a situation of people wanting to support or not. How can it be, they have no idea of what this thing is supposed to be, yet they are supposed to chill and wait for it to happen. And more to the point, who are you to tell them to chill. It sounds more and more like you are becoming one of THEM.

Cynicism is just another form of intelligent people asking questions as opposed to acting like sheep.

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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by petpad » Wed Dec 30, 2009 2:15 pm

carholme wrote:Widow; Take a deep breath yourself!! If you and Johnny are so in the know, why are so many people on here confused about what is going on. You tease with your inside knowledge, yet say nothing.

Never mind trying to impress the crowd with your contacts, that is just name-dropping. If you have those contacts, maybe you should be advising them of the disgruntled masses and get them to publish some information about what is happening.

... ... And more to the point, who are you to tell them to chill. It sounds more and more like you are becoming one of THEM. ...
carholme has a point widow.... listen to yourself:

Widow wrote:If you read the Safety Partnership Programs Framework, you will see there would have to be a majority of stakeholders in support for it to be a go.


If that aint plain TC-talk, I dont know what is! What a difference from the widow of Septemberr 08, or even May 09 in Ottawa, to the Dec 09 version... It's about the 5th time you point out to us the "Safety Partnership Programs Framework". Your earlier links did not seem to work so here is a new one :
http://www.tc.gc.ca/civilaviation/manag ... 07-005.htm
There are a lot of criteria for the "College" to meet before they take on something as big as licensing.
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Widow » Wed Dec 30, 2009 2:25 pm

If you get it, then why do folks keep asking questions that could be answered by reading the framework?

carholme, I guess you missed the part where I said it was a justified cynicism.

I am not a part of the College. I do not have control or influence over what they do, how they do it, or when they do it. The only reason I know anything is because when I heard it was happening, I managed to make contact with someone who was willing to fill me in. They are aware that people are anxious for information and news. I cannot force them to be ready. This is not a matter of having to buy a membership before you know what it is about, it is about having a solid foundation before offering membership.

I've tried to share what information I can, and my own opinion, since some people have seemed to respect my opinion in the past. If that comes off as trying to impress anyone, there isn't much I can do about it.

Whatever. So I've become one of them. I'm sure TC will be very pleased to learn that I'm on their side now. Oh wait, why would they care? Why would you?

I'll go back to my knitting now. :roll:
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by xsbank » Wed Dec 30, 2009 2:52 pm

I look at this organization as an organization for pilots, but there is little advantage from excluding engineers or dispatchers in the long term.

I think, with the correct leadership, this college is a good idea. I like the idea of a barrier to entry to control the number of pilots and improve the calibre of those who are admitted. I would like to see the practice of 'money-up-front' outlawed. I would like to see the 'training bond' wither away because a 'college member' would have agreed to a code of ethics that would forbid him from breaking his word and would bar him from future employment if he does. I like the idea of a liability fund similar to lawyers and doctors so that pilot's estates may be sued but the widow still gets something. I like the idea of legislated hours of work. I like the idea of the end of the seniority system for promotions. I like the idea of an oversight committee that will make sure that SMS is adhered to and the founding principle will be whistle-blower protection. I like the idea of self-promotion whereby the public will KNOW that a certain firm employs only "professional" pilots who have met certain standards. I like the idea of a professional college advocate who will represent the pilot at tribunals and other court appearances.

If there are many who opt out and prefer the "every man for himself" model, borrowing Doc's balls or using Doc's patented ball fertilizer, then the public would be aware of the difference and then they would be free to choose.

I can see this as a benefit for the good employers and a huge forced change or total failure of the bad ones.

I have no idea what is really planned but I can see the upside - I can see an industry that is in serious trouble from just about every side and its time that those of us who have the largest stake in this take control and protect it from itself.

Have you thought about what "Open skies" will do to us as aviation employees?
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Rubberbiscuit » Wed Dec 30, 2009 2:58 pm

I can't see having a University or College degree being a requirement, nor would it be fair unless everyone currently in possession of a Commercial or ATPL without a Degree or Diploma surrenders their Commercial/ATPL License. If that happened there would be a lot of job openings across the board. College Diplomas/ University Degrees not directly related to aviation is as relevant as needing a scuba license in order to become a surgeon.

I am skeptical as well, especially about the college taking over licensing for many reasons not mention fee's. Unless the annual fee you pay to be a member also cover all licensing and medical fee's.

Another concern if you will, is to see how the college will represent pilots from all levels of Canadian aviation, ranging from the guy flying (resposisble for) minnows in a J3 to the 777 Captain doing international flights responsible for hundreds of lives.

Last but not least I am concerned the bar may be set to high for pay etc at the 703, 704 levels putting pilots in a predicament where if they accept said job they will be punished by the college, yet if the operators surviving on a fine margin as it is will become unsustainable with unreasonably high wages (the college could decide that the minimum wage for a Navajo Captain should be $150k!?). That is not to say many operators aren't currently underpaying and exploiting up and coming pilots looking for time to put in the logbook. This is where the biggest difference between a College of Professional Pilots and the College representing Ontario Physicians become evident. A family Physician is a family Physician more or less when it comes to wages etc (excluding specialists here.. besides becoming a specialist requires many more years of education).... does that mean that a pilot is a pilot???? and if we all have to jump through the same hoops to get a license (become a member of the proposed College) we will all get paid the same regardless of what we fly? I assume we will all have to pass the same exams and pay the same annual fee's?
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