College of Pilots?

This forum has been developed to discuss aviation related topics.

Moderators: lilfssister, North Shore, ahramin, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, I WAS Birddog

Post Reply
flyinthebug
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1684
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2004 8:36 am
Location: CYPA

Re: College of Pilots?

Post by flyinthebug »

xsbank wrote:Where did you guys get the weird idea that there is a university or college certificate required in order to join this "college?"
I was wondering the same thing?? Where did anyone ever say you would require a college or university degree, in order to join the "college"? I dont think anyone suggested that? Lets not confuse a college with a college ;)

Doc..I dont agree with you at all on this one. A College, set up and run properly could do wonders for the industry. Most pilots consider ourselves to be professionals and therefore a professional "association" would be appropriate. Like i said, Im just going to sit back and see how this develops before making any decisions on it. I do think that it would need support from people with your experience and dedication to the industry. Dont be so quick to shoot it down, at least until all the facts are in. For clarity, im seeking a college much like the docs, nurses, teachers etc have. NOT a union! Unions are for the weak and lazy and that will NEVER change. A college of professionals is a completely different animal.

Fly safe all.
---------- ADS -----------
 
teacher
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2407
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2004 3:25 pm

Re: College of Pilots?

Post by teacher »

People wouldn't be lining up to pay employers for jobs or work for sub standard (below fee guide) wages if it meant they would not be able to hold their license anymore (or got violated be the CPPC). The doctor, dentist and law Colleges all have a sliding scale of punishments for not adhering the rules. They can range from a letter to loss of license. This would be the only way to reign in our self destructive ways.

I also severely doubt that College or University will be required considering the nature of our industry in Canada.
---------- ADS -----------
 
https://eresonatemedia.com/
https://bambaits.ca/
ajet32
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 300
Joined: Sun Jan 09, 2005 6:57 pm
Location: YYC

Re: College of Pilots?

Post by ajet32 »

The thing that scares me is talk of this group being responsible for licencing. Where in the ICAO Annex does it absolve the regulator of that, I am standing ready to be corrected. Our licence is barely recognized in the EU (unless you have 1500 hours PIC on large jet or turboprop you write 14 exams). Now do we want to degrade it more. Improving the standard is a great idea if it is recognized outside of Canada.
A large number of Canadian pilots work offshore and many use their Canadian ICAO Lic as the basis for a foreign validation.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Doc
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 9241
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 6:28 am

Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Doc »

teacher wrote:People wouldn't be lining up to pay employers for jobs or work for sub standard (below fee guide) wages if it meant they would not be able to hold their license anymore (or got violated be the CPPC).
And, just who will grant the "CPPC" such sweeping powers? The Wizard or OZ?
I totally agree, there need to be great changes to this industry. I'm all for a country wide "pilot's association", but it need's to be IMHO more along the lines of a "union" type of set up. Or an association. Not another "regulator", which is exactly what a professional "college" is set up as. "(or got violated by the CPPC)"
A "college" can't "issue" licenses, therefore would have no power to revoke, or suspend them. We don't need more exams. We need more common sense.
Swinging at windmills can be a good thing.....ya just got to swing at the right windmill...
---------- ADS -----------
 
N181CS
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 92
Joined: Sat Feb 28, 2009 8:05 am

Re: College of Pilots?

Post by N181CS »

The idea of going to "college" come from the idea that they might raise the bar significantly. Not to say its a bad thing, however it has happened before
1) I applied to be a police officer here in Ontario and was told without a diploma or degree I could forget about it, on the other hand my father had been a cop and he never finished high school. Has any of this produced a better police officer for the most part? I would vote no.

2) Ontario has made it a requirement to a) Hold a Grade 12(not a bad thing at all) but its not retroactive to those who do not. b) go to a registered private career college.

I am not opposed to the idea of higher standards but how would that be implemented and could it take people who are in the system and force them out?
---------- ADS -----------
 
carholme
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 430
Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2004 6:29 am

Re: College of Pilots?

Post by carholme »

There seems to be a lot of confusion whether this is going to be a college, union, association or whatever.

What intrigues me is that this corporation came into effect on April 20/09, eight months ago. Presumably,the directors on the board at incorporation are the "Interim Directors" to get the show up and running and then
with an established membership, to offer elections for the board positions. That does not appear to have happened. People have mentioned the possibility that they are waiting approval from TC for handling of the Licensing process, other affiliations with TC, etc., etc.

Whatever the reason for eight months passing with nil information provided publicly, I must ask if any of you have received requests from the organization asking for your opinions on anything? After all, if it is going to beyour "college", one would surmise that the “Interim Directors” may want to hear your opinions about how to proceed.

Widow says that she knows some of the people involved and offers to put you in touch with them. What good is that going to do? Those involved people are the ones who should be updating you, the pilot community with some information about what is happening or going to happen, regarding your futures.

Then again, if it is already happening without your input, maybe you should be careful about what you ask for, your future may already be in place.

Then again, I am just a mechanic. What am I doing in such an exalted place as this?

carholme
---------- ADS -----------
 
Johnny767
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 253
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2005 1:50 pm

Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Johnny767 »

The concept of the "College," is DEFINITELY NOT a Union.

There will be members that belong to ALPA, ACPA and every other walk of Professional Pilot.

The reason they have looked into Licensing is because - Transport Canada has made it known that they want out of it.

So, the concern is who takes it over? Frankly, I am all for the College handling Licensing.
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
Dust Devil
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 4027
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 10:55 am
Location: Riderville

Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Dust Devil »

carholme wrote:There seems to be a lot of confusion whether this is going to be a college, union, association or whatever.

What intrigues me is that this corporation came into effect on April 20/09, eight months ago. Presumably,the directors on the board at incorporation are the "Interim Directors" to get the show up and running and then
with an established membership, to offer elections for the board positions. That does not appear to have happened. People have mentioned the possibility that they are waiting approval from TC for handling of the Licensing process, other affiliations with TC, etc., etc.

Whatever the reason for eight months passing with nil information provided publicly, I must ask if any of you have received requests from the organization asking for your opinions on anything? After all, if it is going to beyour "college", one would surmise that the “Interim Directors” may want to hear your opinions about how to proceed.

Widow says that she knows some of the people involved and offers to put you in touch with them. What good is that going to do? Those involved people are the ones who should be updating you, the pilot community with some information about what is happening or going to happen, regarding your futures.

Then again, if it is already happening without your input, maybe you should be careful about what you ask for, your future may already be in place.

Then again, I am just a mechanic. What am I doing in such an exalted place as this?

carholme
Union or not this is a tactic often seen by unions. They often want to keep as many people in the dark as possible. Being from Saskatchewan we see this all the time.

I see this as something worse than a union. This is a union seeking to also be the regulator. I can't think of a union that actually has regulatory power.

I'm sure there is as much misinformation about this organization as there is truth about it in this thread. The best thing they could do for itself is provide some information about themselves. However after 8 months and nothing has been released yet makes this very suspicions.
---------- ADS -----------
 
//=S=//


A parent's only as good as their dumbest kid. If one wins a Nobel Prize but the other gets robbed by a hooker, you failed
Doc
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 9241
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 6:28 am

Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Doc »

So, just so I have this straight. You guys think it's a wonderful idea to have five or six guys, sitting in their mom's basement with laptops, unilaterally telling you what qualifications you need, who you can and can't work for with certain qualifications, how much money you can and can't make?
You think it's Okay to be, basically "controlled" by a small group of persons, unknown to you on all aspects of your chosen career? To be told what education you need? What exams you must write? What license you can/are qualified to hold?
To quote a line from Butch Cassidy and The Sundance Kid....."Who are those guys?"
Count me OUT.
---------- ADS -----------
 
ajet32
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 300
Joined: Sun Jan 09, 2005 6:57 pm
Location: YYC

Re: College of Pilots?

Post by ajet32 »

"DOC" I'm with you. Lets see who these guys are and what they really want. Are they a bunch of bitter I didn't get hired at so and so guys or are they actually some folks with a bit of real experience.

This is a "dog eat dog" "pilot stab pilot" " Kiss ass who do you know" business in Canada and anyone who doesn't realize that should perhaps think of a career change.

Oh and its worse in Europe where you pay to learn to fly then pay again for your type rating and or sign 5-7 year bonds for Airbus and Boeing jobs. They are lining up to work for the likes of Ryanair so go figure.
---------- ADS -----------
 
flyinthebug
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1684
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2004 8:36 am
Location: CYPA

Re: College of Pilots?

Post by flyinthebug »

Wait a min. Im really starting to think we are talking about two completely seperate issues here. I agree with the last two comments so if that is the goal of this new college, id have to be counted out as well. Somehow, I dont think thats whats occuring but I reserve comment until we see. Can anyone offer any new information on what this college is all about? The speculation is painful!
---------- ADS -----------
 
Widow
Rank Moderator
Rank Moderator
Posts: 4588
Joined: Sun Mar 26, 2006 12:57 pm
Location: Vancouver Island

Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Widow »

ajet32 wrote:The thing that scares me is talk of this group being responsible for licencing. Where in the ICAO Annex does it absolve the regulator of that, I am standing ready to be corrected.
TCCA has delegated oversight of business aviation to the CBAA. Under the Safety Partnership Program, the door is open to do the same for any sector of the industry (AMEs!!!). There is nothing to prevent TC from filing a difference with ICAO (although there is nothing that says they have to, either - they didn't bother doing so with respect to the fatigue directive in November).
carholme wrote:What intrigues me is that this corporation came into effect on April 20/09, eight months ago.
April 20 was the date the application for incorporation was received by Industry Canada, approval was not acquired until June 30th. The BOD has since grown, I can think of 11 people, including a treasurer and regional directors.

Either way, I don't know how you can call eight months a long time when there is so much bureaucracy involved. Although TC approval would have to take place, the Justice Department would have to be involved for drafting legislation. Consultations are ongoing with stakeholders, including various flight schools. None of this happens overnight, or even in eight months time.

Would it really be acceptable for the CPPC to make everything public when they themselves have not go everything sorted out yet? Perhaps they want to ensure that the majority will be happy about their objectives, that they've been perfected as much as possible, before going public.

I'm sure when they are ready, all the information desired will be readily available - and that will be before any legislation is tabled, which will likely take years. There will be plenty of chance to participate or object in the near future.

Everyone should take a deep breath.
---------- ADS -----------
 
"The world is not dangerous because of those who do harm but because of those who look at it without doing anything." - Albert Einstein
Johnny767
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 253
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2005 1:50 pm

Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Johnny767 »

Would you rather some kind of group of Employers control licensing, or a group of your peers?

Maybe Buffalo Joe can be Prez?

End of the day, TC has said they want out!

This is somewhat modeled after the Chartered Accountants. Pilots just can't get past petty envy and distrust of their fellow Aviators. This group is being spearheaded by some exceptional Pilots, making an effort to take (...what is left of this career) and make a difference.

It is hardly going to be run out of your Mothers basement!
---------- ADS -----------
 
armchair
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 154
Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2008 11:55 am

Re: College of Pilots?

Post by armchair »

Johnny767 wrote:The reason they have looked into Licensing is because - Transport Canada has made it known that they want out of it.
Johnny767 wrote:End of the day, TC has said they want out!

Can you provide evidence of this (verifiable and documented) that TC wants out of pilot licensing?
---------- ADS -----------
 
MrWings
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 990
Joined: Wed May 23, 2007 10:35 am

Re: College of Pilots?

Post by MrWings »

---------- ADS -----------
 
Doc
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 9241
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 6:28 am

Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Doc »

Widow wrote:
ajet32 wrote:The thing that scares me is talk of this group being responsible for licencing. Where in the ICAO Annex does it absolve the regulator of that, I am standing ready to be corrected.
TCCA has delegated oversight of business aviation to the CBAA.
carholme wrote:What intrigues me is that this corporation came into effect on April 20/09, eight months ago.
April 20 was the date the application for incorporation was received by Industry Canada, approval was not acquired until June 30th. The BOD has since grown, I can think of 11 people, including a treasurer and regional directors.
I'm sure when they are ready, all the information desired will be readily available -
I stand corrected, there are 11 people in their mom's basement with laptops. And, their are going to change the entire industry? Under who's authority? I don't remember "voting" anyone into office. Last time I looked, Canada was still a democracy. Perhaps, this has changed while I slept? They have "regional directors"? Of what exactly are these people "directors" of?
"When they are ready, all the information desired will be readily available......." Sounds like a "special interest group" to me. How do we know if ANY of our interests are being addressed? They will address only what THEY think are the issues. The rest of us will be stuck with it. Again, I'm OUT. Und zen ve vill follow ze orders of ze Fuhrer!!
---------- ADS -----------
 
ajet32
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 300
Joined: Sun Jan 09, 2005 6:57 pm
Location: YYC

Re: College of Pilots?

Post by ajet32 »

Canada has already failed an ICAO audit regarding safety and flight and duty times. We have some of the highest allowable duty rigs anywhere in the "First World" Taking regulation away from the regulator and giving it to a pilot group will just make us even more of a laughing stock overseas than we are becoming. Canadian pilots are very highly regarded internationally . I really hope this "College" doesn't diminish our reputation.
"Better get that FAA "ATPL" done in case I need it I suppose.

Just because TC wants out doesn't mean they will get out. They are already looking at the CBAA and how they are performing some audits and just how well those said audits are really going.

I guess before I get dumped on some more, question to "Widow" since you are such a supporter.

"WHY" What is the goal of this "College of Pilots"
---------- ADS -----------
 
Widow
Rank Moderator
Rank Moderator
Posts: 4588
Joined: Sun Mar 26, 2006 12:57 pm
Location: Vancouver Island

Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Widow »

Doc, with respect, you and several others are jumping to conclusions based on (a justified) cynicism. If there is even a tiny bit of you that thinks - if done the right way - this couldn't work, why not reserve judgement until all the facts are out? The folks on the Board are far from wannabes, and meetings have been live all over the country.

And yes, this is still a democracy. If you read the Safety Partnership Programs Framework, you will see there would have to be a majority of stakeholders in support for it to be a go.

Ajet32, I have seen a draft version of the Mission Statement, and I'm sure the final will be on the website when it goes live. As will the Code of Ethics. In the meantime, I can only refer you to my statement during the Round Table back in April.
I know there is a small group of pilots who, perhaps discouraged by the lack of regulatory initiative, are trying to form a professional college whose goals are to promote safety standards, training standards, technical issues and accredit Canadian pilots from the youngest commercial pilot to the Airline Transport Pilot near the end of his career. They are the aviation experts who wish to fill an obvious void - the void into which safety concerns fall due to the lack of filter, if you will, between Transport Canada and the owners and operators. Their goals, if adopted, will go a long way to ensuring Canada has the best trained pilots and a safer industry.
---------- ADS -----------
 
"The world is not dangerous because of those who do harm but because of those who look at it without doing anything." - Albert Einstein
ywgflyboy
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 440
Joined: Wed Mar 18, 2009 7:48 am

Re: College of Pilots?

Post by ywgflyboy »

Considering all their website consists of is a picture I think you are all being high immature and a little quick to jump to conclusions here. Screw your heads on right and wait until your accusations are backed up by solid information.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Doc
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 9241
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 6:28 am

Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Doc »

All you people see is "tangerine trees, and marmalade skies..."

This "college" is not the answer to your prayers. Kudos to the chaps who are giving it a try....BUT

The answer to your prayers is a simple one,

Grow a set of BALLS! Too simple for you? You expect a small group of people you don't even know, to swoop in on capes and save YOUR industry? And yet, you people don't have the Balls to say "NO" to handing over large sums of money to "buy" jobs with companies who could give a Royal Rat's Ass about YOU!
YOU allow these same companies to "pressure" you into unsafe conditions? YOU'RE the PROBLEM here. YOU always have been THE problem here. Stand up for YOURSELF. Don't wait for several years for somebody to waltz in and screw up, what could have been a great industry, if only YOU had a pair of BALLS!!!

But I guess it's just easier to have somebody else wipe your ass for you, isn't it. Bloody Jam Tarts!
---------- ADS -----------
 
Post Reply

Return to “General Comments”