Flight Security-threads merged

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ywgflyboy
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Re: Now it's really stupid - no cabin bags allowed

Post by ywgflyboy »

Reminds me of a funny morning talk show I heard on the radio prior to the 25th. They were poking fun at the fact it has taken people 5 years to learn they can not bring liquids on a plane (over 100ml or whatever) and the host was stuck in line behind some one arguing it is absurd they would make such a law and not tell anyone about it.

This new policy regarding carry on is a bit absurd, harsh, and sudden, but the biggest issue is in going to be with all these travelers with no idea! Maybe it is time everyone starts signing off on these regulations when booking their ticket so to ease the hassle at the airport?
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Re: Flight Security

Post by Flybaby »

My information is a little outdated but many years ago, domestic check bag only got searched if there was a concern. When I left being a ramp rat, well at a that airport, they started swabbing random bags for explosive residue. Trans border check bags had they own X-ray machine in a separate room, I believe they randomly picked US bags out of the system for scanning. Most if not all international check bags got x-rayed. Some airlines do it down stairs and some upstairs, not sure if any just didn't do it at all.
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Re: The Terrorist Have Won!

Post by Brewguy »

There is nothing wrong with having some security, but what's come in since 911 has been overkill, and this most recent lot is a total crock.

I'm a professional locksmith by trade, so happen to know a thing or two about security; and here is a little trade secret ... security is an illusion. You can never secure yourself against all threats.

The goal is to add sufficient layers / levels of security in order to deter your less determined 'bad guys'. There is an old saying, that doors have locks to keep the good people honest. Your determined bad guy will find a way around or through whatever level of security you put in place.

Example: a friend or neighbour has their house broken into and robbed, so you go out and hire a locksmith or security company to come put an overkill security system on your home. You've done this simply because of fear; but ultimately a determined crook could still get at you. Even if you turned your home into a bank vault ... because guess what, banks have been robbed too. And while you're sitting in your bank-vault-like home, feeling safe from burglars, what happens when you have a fire, or suffer a heart attack and the firefighters / paramedics can't get to you?

Security is largely an illusion. The idea behind physical security is to make it a pain in the ass for the determined bad guys to hit your target ... you want them to go find easier pickings somewhere else.

As some have pointed out, unless passengers fly naked, with every single one having gone through body cavity searches and full body x-rays, handcuffed to their seats with no baggage allowed on board at all; you'll not prevent a determined terrorist from getting explosives on board. And even then, they'd probably find some way.

Yes, the title of this thread is bang on the money ... they have won. Because they have caused governments to make knee jerk over-reactions, leading to the general public living in fear (or 'terror', if you will).

The whole damn thing has just become absolutely ridiculous.
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Re: The Terrorist Have Won!

Post by Wilbur »

There are no fool proof security systems or measures that can guarantee safety. Security systems involve buidling webs to gather information about developing threats and planned attacks, and putting in place barriers that make carrying out attacks more difficult; but not impossible. Those barriers, like security check points for example, can be used to redirect threats into areas that appear to be less secure but are not, others slow down or add steps to an attack that increase the chances of discovering the threat before the attack can be carried out.

Also consider that passenger screening is not just targeting terrorists, but also those cirminals that might seize an airplane for ransom.

So why the emphasis on airplanes over other modes of travel? Blowing up an international flight guarantees an international incident involving multiple national governments and something that will remain in the media for weeks or months. Blow up a bus in some city, it may or may not make international news, almost certainly involves only citizens of that country, will not cause friction between nations, etc. Airplanes are still seen by the travelling public as being a little different and riskier than other forms of transportation. Passengers in an airplane are completely at the mercy of circumstance, and the consequences of any mishap will likely be spectacular. By comparison, most passengers on a bus would see themselves as capable of driving the bus if they had to, able to jump off, having help immediately at hand, and any crash as entirely survivable. Blowing up airplanes evokes much more emmotion in the masses than does blowing up buses or trains. There are also no practicable alternatives to long distance air travel, but I can always take my car rather than a bus or train.
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Re: The Terrorist Have Won!

Post by North Shore »

Yes, the title of this thread is bang on the money ... they have won. Because they have caused governments to make knee jerk over-reactions, leading to the general public living in fear (or 'terror', if you will).
Does the general public live in fear? I'm not so sure about that. Personally, where I live, I'm more worried about a large earthquake while I am in one of the brick buildings downtown than I am about some crazy Jihadi bombing the WJ flight that I take to and from work every six months...as for the security theatre, like most, I just grin, bear it, and stick pins in CATSA dolls when I get home.
If Osama really wanted to attack our way of life, he'd be blowing up oil infrastructure in Saudi Arabia, but then that would be attacking his own, and probably wouldn't go over so well...
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Re: Now it's really stupid - no cabin bags allowed

Post by . ._ »

Now we'll have to start calling our european carry-alls "purses" to bring them on.

Image

OR we could get bigger wallets.

Image

-istp :roll:
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Re: Flight Security

Post by Redneck_pilot86 »

Flight security is a joke. On November 5, I went thru security at T1 at Pearson with 5 .22 shells in my coat pocket. I had no idea they were there, they were leftovers from bird hunting during my vacation. I took my coat off and sent it through the Xray, and got it back no questions asked. I got to Calgary and went to buy a coffee, when I found them.
I reported this to the CATSA manager in Calgary, who made a big deal of it. I told her exactly how easily I could cause a lot of troubles on an aircraft with this. I know first hand that a bic lighter is enough to set off the primer in a .22, so all I need is a pipe with a .22 caliber hole in it, and I have a gun. There are no laws agains taking a pipe on a plane, are there? And you are forced to carry a lighter on your person. I did everything I possibly could to ruin that security persons day, (the incompetent one in Toronto), and hopefully they were fired. How, with all the technology they have available to them, do they let a person thru with bullets?!?!
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Re: The Terrorist Have Won!

Post by Brewguy »

North Shore wrote:...Does the general public live in fear?...
Perhaps not on a day to day basis. And perhaps not your regular air travelers (i.e. commuters, and those who fly often) ... But many people I know who travel infrequently by air, have expressed more apprehension about flying now than they did in the past. And that fear may not necessarily be about being blown up, but of coming under undue scrutiny by some security nazi.

And I'm not talking about people who should have anything to fear (i.e. no criminals or anything like that). Just your average, law abiding citizen, going on that first vacation in 10 years, fresh passport in hand, worrying about getting strip searched or some such thing because they looked nervous or did something that's 'wrong' according to some rule they don't know about.
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Re: The Terrorist Have Won!

Post by Old fella »

What I have been hearing lately from the group I hang around is - travel within. Lots of interesting places to visit here in the home country. Spent time in Quebec City last summer, man what a spot, best food/drink we ever had, service was the best towards this unilingual duo. Those Quebecers are really nice, also had good times in UL and YZ - people great there as well. Your CDN $ is on par, Medicare card is valid in each Province, no domestic security hassle and of course hearing "please" "thank you" and "excuse me" is gratifying.

Next biggie for us is the VIA rail ride through the Rockies with stops at Lake Louise and Banff – that special hotel is noteworthy. Even hear the Westerners are a good bunch to be around, they don’t mind us Easterners at all.
Cheers everybody!!!
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boeingboy
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Re: Flight Security

Post by boeingboy »

I too don't like the size of some peoples carry on - but there are already size regulations in effect and have been for some time now.

The airlines are supposed to make you check it but none of the check-in agents do because they don't want to put up with the hassle of an argumentitive passenger.

As has been said -
I always carry a spare set of clothes in my bag in case my luggage is lost, and for a short trip - just a carry on so I don't wait an hour to claim my bag.
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MichaelP
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Re: Now it's really stupid - no cabin bags allowed

Post by MichaelP »

Do you remember the USSR?
How many of us would have bothered flying to Moscow while the Communists ruled Russia?

The Union of Soviet Americas is the same today.

We don't have to go there do we.

If the USA wants to be isolationist that is their right.
If the USA wants to create NAZI style organisations, that is their right too.

If we want to go there we'll have to go with their rules and it's not worth crying about it since none of us are voters in the USA and most Americans are in agreement that their security must be 180% assured.
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Re: Now it's really stupid - no cabin bags allowed

Post by Ag Driver »

godsrcrazy wrote:They are also saying you will have to remain in your seat for 1 hour prior to landing.
So you can walk around and attempt to blow up a plane during the flight but not when preparing for landing? Where is the logic in that one?

If it has come down to every passenger being considered a threat, when are pilots going to start receiving danger pay?
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Mike B
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Re: Now it's really stupid - no cabin bags allowed

Post by Mike B »

Is it only fights to the US...??

I'm going to Barbados in January, non-stop from YYZ, can we still bring a carry-on.
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godsrcrazy
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Re: Now it's really stupid - no cabin bags allowed

Post by godsrcrazy »

I agree the 1 hour prior to landing is insane. So just get things ready 1.5 hours prior to anding. The terrorists have won by making everyone chase their tale and spend tons of cash doing it. I must say carry on bags were getting crazy. As soon as my flight was called i would jump up and board so i could get my lap top in the overhead. Being 6'3" i don't like kicking it all through the flight.

The problem here is this has become big business for home land security and others. It is all a big joke. Go on most planes during the day when all the blinds are closed. You may not get through the cockpit door but look thru the holes to the cockpit thru the bathroom walls.

So i am going to make a prediction here. I don't know when i don't know how but trust me some terrorist will bring an airplane down in the next 10 years. With all this knowledge i should get a job with home land security as a consultant getting paid $100,000.00 plus a year.

There are some that believe in more security i think its a big joke. With enough imagination anyone can bring a plane down. It may not hit the target but it will come down. Like my brief case wit a laptop isn't as dangerous as a pocket knife.

As i said at the start the terrorists have won we are chasing are tail spending tons of money. We are taking away the freedom to travel and speak.
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Re: Flight Security

Post by swordfish »

Actually I agree with the original poster on this issue.

Carry-on baggage has gone berserk. While convenient for some people who don't want to go to battle with the rest of the madding crowd at the baggage carousels, is is a nightmare for people waiting to go through security screening, cabin attendants, and other passengers who have to put up with the irritating inconvenience of someone searching the overhead bins for a non-existent place to put some huge bag that never should have been allowed thru the door in the first place, and won't fit under the seat.

There has to be an end to that b/s. If you're not going to need or use it in flight, then it should be checked.

I'm actually referring mainly to domestic flights here; on International flights I can see that a passenger's needs may be a bit more "diverse". And as for the poor Peruvian-bound s.o.b., I always wonder why the baggage missed the flight. If it was improperly tagged, the pax himself has a certain amount of responsibility to check that himself also; and it would not surprise me to find out that late runners have the most problems in this regard.
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Re: Now it's really stupid - no cabin bags allowed

Post by Crobe »

Whats really bizarre is that these new security measures seem to only apply a/c bound TO the US, and not within it. I flew from YVR to LAX on the 27th and it was a gong show, extra screenings, warnings, full pat-downs for everyone, carry on limits, staying in seats for last hour and all that crap. BUT from LAX to KOA......nothing! No extra security, no carry on limits, no sitting restrictions, NOTHING. Nobody even seemed to acknowledge the previous days events. It was business as usual. It blows me away that they can react so strongly to such a narrow threat, then completely ignore everything else. Funny and sad at the same time. I think in the future i'll just drive to SeaTac and fly from there.
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Re: Now it's really stupid - no cabin bags allowed

Post by AuxBatOn »

Crobe wrote:Whats really bizarre is that these new security measures seem to only apply a/c bound TO the US, and not within it. I flew from YVR to LAX on the 27th and it was a gong show, extra screenings, warnings, full pat-downs for everyone, carry on limits, staying in seats for last hour and all that crap. BUT from LAX to KOA......nothing! No extra security, no carry on limits, no sitting restrictions, NOTHING. Nobody even seemed to acknowledge the previous days events. It was business as usual. It blows me away that they can react so strongly to such a narrow threat, then completely ignore everything else. Funny and sad at the same time. I think in the future i'll just drive to SeaTac and fly from there.
Personnal interpretation, but I think it's because they judge their security screening more adequate than those of other countries.
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Re: Flight Security-threads merged

Post by V1RotateV2 »

Crobe wrote:Whats really bizarre is that these new security measures seem to only apply a/c bound TO the US, and not within it.
Apparently they think that McDonalds rejects can do a better job than Tim Horton rejects. Smoke and mirrors again.
Somebody will make millions selling TSA the next screening machine.
In the mean time, check your bags paying the extra fee and allow enough time after your flight to file a lost or damaged baggage report.
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Re: Flight Security-threads merged

Post by flieger »

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Re: Flight Security-threads merged

Post by JakeYYZ »

You can tweak the passenger rules all you want, the bad guys will work around them and next time a plane will go down. The costs to the airlines are in the hundreds of millions, including not only the cost of the planes lost, the insurance claims from victims’ families, and other direct costs of the attack itself, but the lost revenue in the months afterward when many would-be passengers are too afraid to fly. It costs relatively little for terrorists to carry out their attacks: the price of the weapons used, an airline ticket or two, whatever housing and food went to train the terrorist bomber. On a cost analysis basis their return on investment is what? 1,000,000 %. For terrorism to stop, Muslims need to feel a financial smack down. They need to know, to a person, that when Muslims attack the West, that Muslims will lose the millions.
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Re: Flight Security-threads merged

Post by Carrier »

Quote: "What I have been hearing lately from the group I hang around is - travel within."

This is typical of the sort of comment from an unfortunately large and ignorant section of the population that thinks that the only people who travel are tourists and vacationers and that all travel is a discretionary pleasure!

This is supposed to be an aviation forum. Think of all the aircrew who commute to work. Think of all the aircrew and support staff who work on rotation for contract operators with aircraft based in other countries. On each journey these crew need to carry the tools of their trade and supporting documents. There is no way any intelligent pilot is going to have his headsets, GPS, handheld aviation radio, cell phone, calculator, logbook, licences, etc, going as checked baggage and subject to being lost or stolen. This lot should stay with you in your carry on baggage or else refuse to travel. The employer will have to make other arrangements to get you to and from your base.

Pilots, when they travel to get to and from work, are not the only non-discretionary travellers. The requirement to travel internationally is faced by many others such as miners, geologists, flight attendants, aircraft maintenance engineers, diplomats, government workers, politicians, aid workers, engineers, architects, the military, the merchant navy, medical doctors and specialists, nurses, TV and press reporters, professional sports players, missionaries, multi-national company managers, travel agents, couriers, marketing reps, contractors, artists, actors, emigrants, retirees, etc, apart from tourists. We live in an ever more inter-dependant world, with ever increasing movement between countries, and with ever more persons in expatriate situations. Many Canadians live permanently outside of Canada or travel internationally for employment and are far more likely to need emergency travel, particularly those in the Third World who might have to be medevaced to a country with decent medical facilities. All of these should be up in arms over the abuse being inflicted upon them.

Are there any effective passengers' rights organisations?
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Re: Flight Security-threads merged

Post by boeingboy »

Whats really bizarre is that these new security measures seem to only apply a/c bound TO the US, and not within it. I flew from YVR to LAX on the 27th and it was a gong show, extra screenings, warnings, full pat-downs for everyone, carry on limits, staying in seats for last hour and all that crap. BUT from LAX to KOA......nothing! No extra security, no carry on limits, no sitting restrictions, NOTHING. Nobody even seemed to acknowledge the previous days events. It was business as usual. It blows me away that they can react so strongly to such a narrow threat, then completely ignore everything else. Funny and sad at the same time. I think in the future i'll just drive to SeaTac and fly from there.

You know what else is unbelieveable?

On US domestic flights - the passenger/bag rule does not apply. I couldn't believe it at first, but if a passenger has checked in and then didn't get on the flight - their bag is not pulled! It just goes on it's merry way and that person picks it up later whenever they get in.

We are pulling bags everyday because someone either didn't or couldn't travel. The Lufthansa YVR - FRA flight earlier this week was delayed an hour and a half trying to find the 4 bags of this woman who lost her passport after check in. However - this is one rule I firmly believe in.

Guess there is no threat inside the good ol' USA. :roll:
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Re: Flight Security-threads merged

Post by godsrcrazy »

Your bag most travel with the passenger rule only applies if the airline doesn't loss it or redirect to another destination. Blows me away how airlines preach you and your bag have to be on the same flight unless they loss it or misdirect it. Then your bag can go on any flight with out you. On more then 1 occasion i have tried to get on an earlier connection to get home only to be told i can't because i have to travel with my luggage. Then i stand at the bag carousel waiting for a bag in some cases that went on the earlier flight and in others cases didn't make my flight.
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Re: Flight Security-threads merged

Post by Old fella »

"This is typical of the sort of comment from an unfortunately large and ignorant section of the population that thinks that the only people who travel are tourists and vacationers and that all travel is a discretionary pleasure!"

Question for ya!!

What is the purpose of the carriers such as CanJet, Sunwing, AT et al who's objective is to attract such customers(and do a good job of it, mind you). And..... how come the big two boys AC and WJ offer a "vacations" section in their business plans.

:roll: :roll:
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Re: Now it's really stupid - no cabin bags allowed

Post by Finn47 »

MichaelP wrote:Do you remember the USSR?
How many of us would have bothered flying to Moscow while the Communists ruled Russia?

The Union of Soviet Americas is the same today.
I did :D Actually, it was a lot of fun, watching their "system" as a westerner. Very orderly and safe, no hassles except for customs bureaucracy, and you could live like a king after selling a pair of blue jeans or two. Besides, you should have seen the amount of carry-on the Russkies brought on board. 30 kilos each, easily :lol:

.. so the situation really is not comparable.
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