Question - OC required??

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100LL81
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Question - OC required??

Post by 100LL81 »

So here is my question, I am having trouble deciphering the CAR's. I have a business selling entertainment things, concert tickets, sports event tickets etc. If I had a plane privately registered to the company or myself could I fly my customers who purchase things from my business to the events without being a commercial operator. Basically the company owns the plane and provides transportation to the events. The flight would not actually be charged for, just the price of the package which includes transportation. Kind of like when you buy a package deal to mexico for XXX dollars and the flight is included. Just looking for feedback. I know the CAR's has rules about business use of an aircraft but I cannot seem to find it, if anyone knows what section it is in would be a great help.
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Tango Romeo
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Re: Question??

Post by Tango Romeo »

These are the individuals who you would want to talk to.

www.cbaa.ca

Tango-
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_dwj_
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Re: Question??

Post by _dwj_ »

I strongly suspect you would need to have an OC to run this kind of operation because the 'package price' would be considered to be charging for a commercial air service. But as the previous poster suggested, you should definitely get advice from the experts rather than relying on anything said on this forum. I'd also suggest giving Transport Canada a call.
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Hedley
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Re: Question??

Post by Hedley »

Because you are operating a commercial air service - you are offering an aircraft and pilot together as a package, for hire - you're going to need an AOC.

Depending upon what type of aircraft you are thinking about, you're either going to need a CAR 703 AOC (max 9 pax, no jets allowed):

http://www.tc.gc.ca/civilaviation/regse ... htm#703_01

or perhaps a CAR 704 AOC (max 19 pax):

http://www.tc.gc.ca/civilaviation/regse ... htm#704_01

Both of the above are non-trivial.


I don't think you need to talk to the CBAA about CAR 604:

http://www.tc.gc.ca/civilaviation/regse ... htm#604_02

because you aren't simply transporting people (eg company employees) with a pressurized kerosene burner - that's what CBAA/CAR 604/POC is all about.
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ahramin
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Re: Question??

Post by ahramin »

How do these fishing lodges flying customers in with private aircraft get away with it?
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Prairie Chicken
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Re: Question??

Post by Prairie Chicken »

Abrahim, they're not supposed to get away with it.
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flyinthebug
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Re: Question??

Post by flyinthebug »

ahramin wrote:How do these fishing lodges flying customers in with private aircraft get away with it?
They keep their privately registered planes up north under the cloak that they will run "gear and supplies only". Then, when 4 guys are standing there waiting for the "chartered" aircraft..they find out its gonna be 5 hours late because the wx in YWG or YXE is crap.. so the owner decides it wont hurt to just "whip those boys up to the camp and no one will know"..The young pilots like it as it grows their logbook and the old ones usually just chaulk it up to the way business is done up there. Chisel charters are now and have always been a PAIN in the a$$ of honest operators. I can name 6 float ops that are in line with this way of thinking..as sad as that may be.

As for the topic question.. IMHO you will require an AOC to conduct this type of "flight included" pricing and marketing. As Hedley has pointed out above.
Fly safe all.
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Last edited by flyinthebug on Tue Jan 26, 2010 9:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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The Old Fogducker
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Re: Question??

Post by The Old Fogducker »

ahramin wrote:How do these fishing lodges flying customers in with private aircraft get away with it?
Most of those little "Ma & Pa Kettle" camps actually do have AOCs. A number of years ago, it was made as easy as possible to make them legal rather than falling into being "chisel charters."

That's not to say that there still aren't places like FTB has described, just not quite as many as before.

The word is out .... the lawsuit ramifications of plowing in an airplane full of US lawyers isn't a wise move.

OFD
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chesty
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Re: Question??

Post by chesty »

How about minnow pilots, why do they not have have to be commercial pilots. I guess they don't fly for hire or rewards! :mrgreen:
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Carrier
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Re: Question??

Post by Carrier »

It's no different from skydiving. Skydivers are at the drop zone to parachute, not to fly as pax. First time jumpers pay for their training and jumps, including the use of a parachute and other gear. Experienced skydivers have their own rigs but pay for their jumps. Effectively both beginners and the experienced skydivers are paying for air transport from the airfield to the height and spot where they leave the plane. Therefore the drop zone operator needs an AOC and the pilots need at least a CPL.
No matter how it is dressed up or included in a package if there is any element of a member of the public paying for air transport then an AOC and at least a CPL are both required.
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Hedley
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Re: Question??

Post by Hedley »

Calling an experienced skydiver (with his own rig) a "member of the public"
is a bit of a stretch, IMHO.

I know that in Canada it is illegal for a group of skydivers to form a private
club and jump with their own aircraft. Transport has repeatedly taken the
position in writing and at the Tribunal that any time any person jumps out
of an aircraft, a 702 AOC is required, but I must respectfully disagree,
because the experienced skydivers that formed the club in my example are
NOT unwashed members of the public.

It's like flight training. I can train my kid on my aircraft - he's not a member
of the unwashed public, who will require a 406 FTU OC for flight training. Some
flight training requires an OC - because it's commercial - and some doesn't.

Similarly, IMHO not all skydiving is a "commercial air service". If the unwashed
public is kept out, IMHO you don't need an AOC - but I know Transport disagrees
with me on this.
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iflyforpie
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Re: Question??

Post by iflyforpie »

How then do glider clubs who are performing aerial work (towing) and training for hire or reward get away with not having an AOC or having to use commercial pilots? :?
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Carrier
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Re: Question??

Post by Carrier »

They are not carrying paying pax!

Glider operators do not normally permit any passengers, paying or free, in their tow planes while towing. The only time a tow plane has more than one person in it while actually towing is when there is a new tow pilot being trained with an experienced tow pilot in the back seat or while each experienced tow pilot is receiving his annual check from a designated experienced check tow pilot. In several years of towing I can recall only one exception to this when a reporter was carried free in the back seat after first signing a blood chit to acknowledge that he was doing so entirely at his own risk.

Up until about thirty years ago in Canada a jump plane could be flown by a PPL without the operator having an AOC. Then Transport Canada decided that the jump planes were carrying paying passengers from the airfield to the point where they jumped out of the plane. They determined that this was the commercial transportation of paying passengers so all such operations would have to have an AOC and the pilots at least a CPL.

All of the soaring operations in Canada that I am familiar with are not for profit clubs or associations and do not do any training for hire or reward. You become a member and get your training for free. None of the glider instructors receive any remuneration for their instruction and I believe there is not even a commercial glider licence in Canada whereas such a permit does exist in the USA. (I am open to correction on this.) All of the drop zones I have been to have been for profit businesses. Hedley raised an interesting point. Should there be a distinction between a for profit operation carrying the general public and a mutually owned club that does not carry non-members? That's one you will have to argue out with TC.
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ahramin
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Re: Question??

Post by ahramin »

Carrier, I know of two for profit gliding operations in BC. Neither has any kind of TC oversight or OC. These are incorporated companies with paid tow pilots, glider instructors, and ground staff. They take people for glider rides for money.

In addition, there is a huge group of tow and glider pilots who get paid to give rides: Air Cadet CIC. While they are paid by DND, they are nonetheless paid to fly civilian registered aircraft with TC licences, not military wings.
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_dwj_
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Re: Question??

Post by _dwj_ »

ahramin wrote:Carrier, I know of two for profit gliding operations in BC. Neither has any kind of TC oversight or OC. These are incorporated companies with paid tow pilots, glider instructors, and ground staff. They take people for glider rides for money.

In addition, there is a huge group of tow and glider pilots who get paid to give rides: Air Cadet CIC. While they are paid by DND, they are nonetheless paid to fly civilian registered aircraft with TC licences, not military wings.
So perhaps we have just found a legal way to transport paying passengers without needing an OC. Simply build a massive glider to hold your passengers and tow it behind your Navajo!
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Widow
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Re: Question??

Post by Widow »

There's an article about this in the latest Safety Letter - scroll down to "Flying for Money": http://www.tc.gc.ca/civilaviation/publi ... ations.htm
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Adam Oke
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Re: Question??

Post by Adam Oke »

ahramin wrote:In addition, there is a huge group of tow and glider pilots who get paid to give rides: Air Cadet CIC. While they are paid by DND, they are nonetheless paid to fly civilian registered aircraft with TC licences, not military wings.
CIC Officers do not get paid to fly.
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iflyforpie
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Re: Question - OC required??

Post by iflyforpie »

ahramin wrote:Carrier, I know of two for profit gliding operations in BC. Neither has any kind of TC oversight or OC. These are incorporated companies with paid tow pilots, glider instructors, and ground staff. They take people for glider rides for money.
There is an operation on my field that does exactly that... except for the paying tow pilots bit.
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GoinNowhereFast
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Re: Question??

Post by GoinNowhereFast »

_dwj_ wrote:So perhaps we have just found a legal way to transport paying passengers without needing an OC. Simply build a massive glider to hold your passengers and tow it behind your Navajo!
All we need to do is build more C-47s and some Waco CG-4A gliders. :smt040
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sheephunter
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Re: Question - OC required??

Post by sheephunter »

AOC needed. That's not even close to a smoke screen, no mirrors... Nah, no ones buying in. You need the OC, commercially registered craft, CPL and the insurance to go with it. Although it would be nice to fly out of TO and see an NHL game in someplace like Nashville and be back by morning for less money than what a ticket to see the Leaf in TO would be... and not have to see the Leafs.
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ahramin
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Re: Question??

Post by ahramin »

Adam Oke wrote:
ahramin wrote:In addition, there is a huge group of tow and glider pilots who get paid to give rides: Air Cadet CIC. While they are paid by DND, they are nonetheless paid to fly civilian registered aircraft with TC licences, not military wings.
CIC Officers do not get paid to fly.
True, sort of. They get paid to show up, whether they fly or not. But if a CIC tow pilot loses his medical and can't fly anymore, someone else will have to show up to fly, and that person will get paid for that day. I'm not talking about all CIC officers, it's getting pretty rare to find any with a licence in my area. I'm talking about RGS CIC who's primary job description is to fly tow planes and gliders.
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