Ahhhh YYC sometimes you just have to laugh.

[yycflyguy]

Sorry - not impressed at all.

Child's play compared to what is done in dozens of places in the US every frikin' day.

Next...

Tough nut to crack, I guess. In the meantime, that's reinforced my 'clueless' comment. "Jeez, lookit all da room dey put between dem dots... What are dey, scared to run 'em tite? Dat's how dey do it down in da States."

It's child's play for them at JFK

http://liveatc-archive.s3.amazonaws.com ... roller.mp3

[burly]

Hey Cyeg66 (GW) don't feed the trolls on here.

[cyeg66]

Hey Burly (KR), even dim-witted trolls need to be fed from time to time... But you're right, I know lost causes when I see em'.

[MacStork]

I am laughing my ass off! You guys and gals just don't get it! This has nothing to do with safety or efficiency It is all about LIABILITY! This is just a part of the DUMBING of AVIATION .... and other industries ..... and it is going to get a lot worse.... so get used to it folks! Think about it.... if you screw up ....your career is over. Those controllers in YYC know that .... and they ain't going to screw up. so get used to being patient.....and F*%k the good folks who pay for all this madness!

[Randleman]

Last I checked Calgary had three runways work em.

They can work two of em, but what they REALLY need to do is double up 34/16.

[Turd Ferguson]

So Turdos sitting on the ramp in YLW, FO calls for the clearance and we get a flow time for YYC. So its SNAFU as usual in YYC. Next ground advises us that we will be held enroute even after waiting on the ramp for 45 minutes.
Now Turdos no brain surgeon but isn't the whole idea of a slot time supposed to eliminate the need for a hold. Why not just delay the departure and cancel the hold. Makes sense n'est ce pas? But no that can't be done. Thats crazy talk Uncle Turd,crazy!!
Now I know there have been many comparisons to the fellow tin pushers south of the border and as always our northern ATCers get their backs up and make a myriad of excuses. All I know is this wouldn't be tolerated at EWR, BOS, PHL, LGA, DEN, IAH, LAX or any of the many other US airports I have had the pleasure of flying out of.
Just take a deep breath, light some incense and go to your happy place cause it ain't gonna change anytime soon.
Turd

[Randleman]

I can't believe this. Is there ANYTHING we, as pilots, DONT complain about?! My good word. No kidding we aren't considered "professionals"

[Johnny#5]

If we all stopped bitching this wouldn't be much of a forum!

[cyeg66]

It seems it's what makes us Canadian. Never had the pleasure of having an American crew bitch on the freq as though it's their God given right. Even after holding, flying the STAR for 70 miles, then joining a 35 mile final @ 160 kts, they still "Thanks" and "Good day". Being less well paid leads to better manners. It's a crossing runway airport with traffic levels meant for parallel ops. It ain't gonna change soon as the big Turd pointed out. Au revoir, les teteux.

[Koizie1]

I'm laughing.

Today there is flow into YYC. Sky is clear wind 160/6, vis 40sm. I do not understand..........., please tell me it isnt because NavCanada is too cheap to staff the Tower/terminal properly. There must be a good solid reason. Must there not? Anyone? CYEG66? Burly?

[5dayer]

Its probably the software Navcanada uses, then again ,when they tell you when to take sick days and who will get the overtime,it all sounds pretty corrupt so who knows.

[NJ]

I'll tell you one thing, it isn't because they're too cheap to train people for twr and terminal. It's just that the training takes time.

I can guess that the flow has something to do with the extra olympic traffic. It doesn't sound like much, an extra 20-30 flights a day that have to clear CATSA security at Esso or Shell, then proceed to Vancouver, but say a CNK charter is going to take some passengers from Edmonton to Vancouver. The flight has to leave YYC for YEG, then return to YYC to clear CATSA security, then proceed to YVR. So one flight takes four movements in YYC to get the passengers to the olympics and the plane back. For an airport at or near its capacity most times it ends up delaying things for everyone down the line.

A parallel runway would fix most of the airborne capacity problems, but have fun taxiing from northeast of Park and Jet to Shell

[cyeg66]

I'm laughing.

Today there is flow into YYC. Sky is clear wind 160/6, vis 40sm. I do not understand..........., please tell me it isnt because NavCanada is too cheap to staff the Tower/terminal properly. There must be a good solid reason. Must there not? Anyone? CYEG66? Burly?

<sigh>.............

Blue sky isn't magic. It doesn't allow for disregarding separation. Flow into Calgary will be omnipresent every Tue, Wed, Thurs, for the next 4+ years. It will still be required many Mon and Fri nights. It ain't going anywhere. No, staffing not an issue. It is because of the following slightly unscientific example.

Familiar with flightaware? It doesn't account for 100% of air movements, but it can still give you an idea. Let's assume it misses the odd one from each of the following aerodromes:

Montreal 5:00 to 7:45 pm = 53 arrivals.
Vancouver 4:00 to 6:45 pm (most recent available time) = 67 arrivals
Calgary 5:00 to 7:45 pm = 78 arrivals

I'm no genius (very far from it, ) but it looks to me that even with flow control in effect, Calgary was the busier over those parallel equipped airports. I can only speculate as to why.... Without the flow, the demand may have been well over 100 planes for that same period. The others don't even require flow. That number of arrivals was the demand. It may differ throughout the day (YVR busier in the morning, for instance) but mid-afternoon to 9 pm will almost always be flowed mid week, regardless of weather, staff, Canadian controllers suck compared to American controller arguments, etc.

[Randleman]

I'm laughing.

Today there is flow into YYC. Sky is clear wind 160/6, vis 40sm. I do not understand..........., please tell me it isnt because NavCanada is too cheap to staff the Tower/terminal properly. There must be a good solid reason. Must there not? Anyone? CYEG66? Burly?

<sigh>.............

Blue sky isn't magic. It doesn't allow for disregarding separation. Flow into Calgary will be omnipresent every Tue, Wed, Thurs, for the next 4+ years. It will still be required many Mon and Fri nights. It ain't going anywhere. No, staffing not an issue. It is because of the following slightly unscientific example.

Familiar with flightaware? It doesn't account for 100% of air movements, but it can still give you an idea. Let's assume it misses the odd one from each of the following aerodromes:

Montreal 5:00 to 7:45 pm = 53 arrivals.
Vancouver 4:00 to 6:45 pm (most recent available time) = 67 arrivals
Calgary 5:00 to 7:45 pm = 78 arrivals

I'm no genius (very far from it, ) but it looks to me that even with flow control in effect, Calgary was the busier over those parallel equipped airports. I can only speculate as to why.... Without the flow, the demand may have been well over 100 planes for that same period. The others don't even require flow. That number of arrivals was the demand. It may differ throughout the day (YVR busier in the morning, for instance) but mid-afternoon to 9 pm will almost always be flowed mid week, regardless of weather, staff, Canadian controllers suck compared to American controller arguments, etc.

Nice post. Interesting to see those stats.

[Koizie1]

CYEG66, those numbers are interesting. I understand yyc is busy and needs another runway. I personally have been flying into yyc for a long time and its only in the past 3 months or so that flow has become an almost daily occurence. It would happen occasionally in the past but only when weather was real bad. Whats changed? No one is blaming the controllers, but something has changed recently and for some reason flow is almost daily regardless of weather.

[cyeg66]

CYEG66, those numbers are interesting. I understand yyc is busy and needs another runway. I personally have been flying into yyc for a long time and its only in the past 3 months or so that flow has become an almost daily occurence. It would happen occasionally in the past but only when weather was real bad. Whats changed? No one is blaming the controllers, but something has changed recently and for some reason flow is almost daily regardless of weather.

Yup, something's changed. It's called YVR TMU. Since late November, they're in charge of not overloading YYC. Historically, the standard practice was to allow planes to show up whenever they wanted to, first come, first serve. With that practice in place, there were nights when almost 1000 mins in holds (weather, staffing, menial issues, etc) were issued to a/c approaching the bedpost(s). Now, most of the waiting is happening on a tarmac somewhere, with engines turned off. Ultimately, delays still occur but at far less expense in terms of fuel, wear-and-tear, blah blah blah. Think of it in terms of helping the environment . Now, 'scuse me whilst I go back to delaying planes.

Sidenote:
....Go Canada!!!
----interesting incoming arrivals from Russia over the last 48 hours.

[burly]

Well said CYEG66. This isnt a Nav Canada issue ladies and gentlemen. This has to do with the Calgary Airport Authority. Call them if your pissed off about delays. The parallel was required 10 years ago. They have been dragging their ass on this issue for years.

Using a RWY 34/28 VFR wx cond mode we can do 33-37 arrivals an hour. If the tower has light departure demand we can do RWY 34/28/25 arrival mode. This plugs the airport and departures will back up fast, as ground controller has to taxi across two active runways to get someone into postion on Rwy 34. The arrival rate is about 42-45 an hour.

Like i have said on previous post, years ago we had an experience controller program to try to staff the TCU. We had controllers from Hong Kong, 2 from Sydney Aus, Frankfurt, Dubai, Abu Dhabi to name a few. They all say the same thing.... running this amount of traffic on Intersecting RWY ops is crazy. We had one controller make it and is still with us today. 13 years in Frankfurt terminal then to YYC.

Come by for a tour and see the operation. We'll be glad to explain it all. We have seen alot of Jazz Dash crews in lately. It has been good to get understanding out there. Kudos to the crews for coming in, alot of positive feedback from everyone.

Not much else to say on this issue. Make sure your well informed before you start assessing blame here. We're trying but unfortunately this airport is bursting at the seams.

Burly

YC Terminal

[IFRATC]

Am I missing something here??? All your points about SKC conditions and VFR at YYC have NO bearing on movements. If this is your reasoning then maybe you should tick the "other" box on the flightplan info marked VFR. I don't work in YYC but I do work in YYZ. I would estimate that at least 95% of the movements are IFR traffic in YYC. So why is everyone going to excruciating lengths to point out the weather at YYC terminal when flow is in effect.
All your other points about US controllers and their exceptional skills makes me laugh too. Why is it you think, that maybe you sit in the hold bay or at the de-ice pad waiting for departure for example here in YYZ when the weather as you guys point out is SKC when your destination is glorious KORD or JFK or KEWR or KBOS???? Its a FLOW TIME!!!!!!! Do you bitch about that too?? Do you bitch about being slowed to 250kts and getting at least one maybe three vectors of 60 degrees or more, 300 plus miles before KORD!! Its all flow control. This is a daily occurance. It happens all over North America. You guys don't have a clue as to how much flow control we work whether it is on the ground or airborne for our US brethern that you hold in such high regard.
The guys in YYC didn't design the airport layout. They work the increased amount of air traffic into an airport that is 50 plus years old with the same old configuration. They, like all of us, work damn hard at what they do, day in day out. Why not give the guy a thank you instead of a smeer? You can bet if you have a flow time your not the only one, and those guys pounding planes in and out with the added workload of flow rates are working very hard. Flow control only really works when ground delay programs are in effect. What you guys don't understand is that airborne flow times and rates make our workload go up exponentially and for longer durations of our shifts. You are dealing with your ONE aircraft delay. The controllers you are bitching about are handling 10-20 multiple flow times and delays at any given moment for dynamic periods. Seems to me you got nothing to bitch about. We controllers aren't. So please shut up so we can bear down and get to work. Your comments verge on the derogatory and insulting. Not to mention ignorant.

IFRATC

[whiteguy]

All time in the log book to me!!!!

[Koizie1]

I for one would rather be delayed on the ground than in the air. Since Vancouver took over the flow I still get crossing time restrictions and holds in the air after being delayed in the ground (although admittedly maybe a little less than before). The controllers in Terminal/Ctre airspace do a good job and handle a lot at once. No doubt.

But, when I come in to YYC at 'peak' periods I'm late a lot more than I used to be. Why this is, I have no idea.