Well done WestJet!

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FlowPack
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Re: Well done WestJet!

Post by FlowPack »

Couldn't they just go as WJA ### 'medevac' and voila, no paperwork...

I do have a real question about split duty days. Are you allowed to extend because of unforeseen delays (ones you already knew about at the START of your split, but not at the beginning of your actual duty day)? According to Donald Sherritt (first TC email posted), you could still blast off and push to an 18 hour day.
The question that follows is - In anticipation or in advance of what? At what point does an unforeseen circumstance become foreseen? Transport Canada has chosen the beginning of the flight crew's duty day as the reference point for determining if a circumstance was unforeseen.

If the air operator or flight crew member is aware of the circumstance before the flight duty period begins, then it is not an unforeseen operational circumstance - the maximum flight time or flight duty time cannot be exceeded.

If the air operator or flight crew member is not aware of the circumstance before the flight duty period begins, then it is an unforeseen operational circumstance - the maximum flight duty time can be extended in accordance with CAR 700.17.

What is an "unforeseen operational circumstance"?
A split wouldn't be considered two duty days, or it would cause a whole host of other problems..
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Tube Driver
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Re: Well done WestJet!

Post by Tube Driver »

Like I said in my earlier post, what was the filed destination? where can someone find this?
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double-j
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Re: Well done WestJet!

Post by double-j »

Your guys conspiracy theories do make me laugh!

jj
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Rotten Apple #1
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Re: Well done WestJet!

Post by Rotten Apple #1 »

No doubt the pilots would have used the Fatigue Matrix to determine their fitness to fly. No story here.
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Mustard
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Re: Well done WestJet!

Post by Mustard »

Busted. We have duty days for a reason.
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mattedfred
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Re: Well done WestJet!

Post by mattedfred »

jonny dangerous wrote:No doubt the pilots would have used the Fatigue Matrix to determine their fitness to fly. No story here.
what is a fatigue matrix and how does it work?
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loopa
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Re: Well done WestJet!

Post by loopa »

Beacon wrote:Here is another TC view....Maybe TC could publish something that would clear this topic up once and for all.

From: Rehm, Danielle
Sent: Monday, January 05, 2009 3:13 PM
To:
Subject: RE: Duty Times - Unforeseen Circumstances

Hi ,

If the pilot or the air operator is aware, prior to take-off, that a flight will put the crew over the max allowable duty day, it cannot be said to be unforeseen. As mentioned in my earlier email, there are very few situations that qualify as unforeseen circumstances - in any case it is always something that happens after the flight has departed. Delays due to deicing, maintenance etc, do not constitute unforeseen circumstances. The intent behind the exception to the regulations is to allow a crew to continue to destination in the event that something occurs enroute that could not have reasonably been foreseen.

As PIC, when you apply power for take-off, you must be reasonably certain that you will land within your legal duty day.
If you have other questions regarding duty times, crew scheduling etc, I suggest you contact the Principal Operations inspector for your company - you are also welcome to call me at any time to discuss..

Regards,

Danielle Rehm
Civil Aviation Inspector Commercial and Business Aviation
(604) 666-9773
Ok, so I'm going to throw the ball a different way. I may be wrong.

So TC considers it to be illegal to depart if the pilot knows that they're going to be surpassing the duty times. Let's go back to YVR, where the guys departed. This is the first flight of the day for this crew. When they depart, they know that they're going to be okay for duty times as it's a round robin flight for a total of maybe 11 hours. At this point, there is no mention of having a "sick" passenger on board. So as a result, if they end up with a medical emergency that requires a diversion, wouldn't this be seen as unforeseen? Cause it is a different story if the crew knew they had a sick passenger while departing YVR. But since they didn't, then having a medical emergency really is out of the company's control and should be seen as unforeseen.

So if suddenly having a medical emergency is seen as unforeseen, then this entire round robin flight that the crew was scheduled to do has now been delayed for unforeseen circumstances. With that in mind, wouldn't the 4 hour delay at the diverted airport also be seen as unforeseen? Wouldn't that 4 hour delay added to the overall round robin be seen as unforeseen?

Cause if all of those are viewed as unforeseen as a result of unforeseen as a result of unforeseen, then as long as they make it back and check out from their duty times within 17 hours, and receive their extended 6 hours of uninterrupted rest... this would all be legal...

What might be considered illegal is the following. I was on a KLM flight, shortly departing EHAM, as we were passing FL120, the flight attendants go on the PA and ask for a doctor. Remember, our foreseen flight was intended to be 9 hours and 45 minutes. At 20 minuets into the flight, we need a doctor. What was a question to me was that we ended up continuing to Vancouver and midway over greenland, we had to divert to Keflavik. We were delayed in Keflavik for 5 hours because the passenger refused to get off the plane as they were worried about their foreign visa requirements. KLM knew that this passenger could not land anywhere else but Canada or Netherlands because at check in, her international documents must of been verified. Still, KLM decided to continue to Vancouver and being forced to divert to Keflavik. They were past the 14 hour duty requirement regulation for a 9.8 block flight time.

I don't know of the CAA/JAA regulations, but under Canadian regulations, wouldn't continuing with a sick passenger who KLM is aware of not having proper international documents for a diversion been considered a foreseen circumstance? Replace KLM with ACA... would ACA get crap for it if such a thing was done by a carrier under Canadian Jurisdiction?

Your thoughts?
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Last edited by loopa on Sat Mar 06, 2010 1:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.

planemikey
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Re: Well done WestJet!

Post by planemikey »

Either way you cut it , if nothing happens when you know you will go over your your duty limit when leaing to your destination your a hero , your boss says way to go , TC boyz wink and say tisk tisk . But in the same circumstances , when crap does hit the Turbo Fan, ALL and I mean ALL frends disappear. The Captain knows this only too well. Never push the limits is the best practise and you'll hae friends too!
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Randleman
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Re: Well done WestJet!

Post by Randleman »

Okay people, Puerto Vallarta is NOT a westjet base!!
For goodness sake, these pilots know what they are doing.
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double-j
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Re: Well done WestJet!

Post by double-j »

Randleman, please do not argue with the omnipotent posters on this forum, because they are to school you on their navajo, kingair, blah, blah, experience and they know better than the operator sop's.

j
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Re: Well done WestJet!

Post by mattedfred »

Randleman wrote:Okay people, Puerto Vallarta is NOT a westjet base!!
For goodness sake, these pilots know what they are doing.
i didn't realize that one could only duty out at a location that one's own airline has a base

perhpas i was wrong the last time i dutied out in YXU which is not a base for my employer?
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Re: Well done WestJet!

Post by Doc »

Randleman wrote:Okay people, Puerto Vallarta is NOT a westjet base!!
For goodness sake, these pilots know what they are doing.
Got to agree with you on that comment. Can't believe this just keeps going on and on.
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Jastapilot
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Re: Well done WestJet!

Post by Jastapilot »

Explanations blah blah blah. I could give a crap what one of Transport's minions "THINKS" what the wording of the CARS is supposed to mean. The fact is it's written in such a way that it's difficult to interpret because of it's ambiguity. To top it all off, I'm sure it's no accident that it's so vague.

Fact: there is nothing about being at a company base in the limits. Nothing about prior to a flight

cut'n paste:
Unforeseen Operational Circumstances

604.30 Flight duty time may be extended beyond the maximum flight duty times referred to in subsections 604.27(1) and 604.28(1) if

(a) the pilot-in-command, after consultation with the other flight crew members, considers it safe to do so;

(b) the flight duty time is extended as a result of unforeseen operational circumstances; and

(c) the private operator and the pilot-in-command comply with the Private Operator Passenger Transportation Standards.


and:
624.30 Unforeseen Operational Circumstances

The standards for compliance with this section are:

(1) Flight duty time may be extended by up to 3 consecutive hours provided that:

(a) the subsequent minimum rest period shall be increased by an amount at least equal to the extension to the flight duty time;

(b) the pilot-in-command shall notify the air operator, in accordance with procedures outlined in the company operations manual, of the length of and the reason for the extension; and

(c) the air operator shall retain the notifications until the completion of the next Department of Transport audit.

(2) Flights shall be planned to be completed within the maximum flight duty time taking into account the time necessary for pre-flight and post-flight duties, the flight or series of flights, forecast weather, turn-around times and the nature of the operation.


and:

"unforeseen operational circumstance" - means an event, such as unforecast adverse weather, or an equipment malfunction or air traffic control delay, that is beyond the control of an air operator or private operator; (circonstance opérationnelle imprévue)


Bottom line, unless it says different somewhere else in the CARS, I don't see anything regarding any of the wishful thinking that I see in this thread.

Some of us operate in a manner that holds 'completing the mission' as the objective of the CARs; others use it as an excuse not to fly. The above quote directly from CARs is the only rule I have to determine whether to extend my duty day, and that's it. Yes, it needs to be better written, but it won't ever be. If you're not fit to fly, don't fly. If 'something' occurs during your duty day that wasn't part of the plan, then as far as I'm concerned, you can extend.
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Re: Well done WestJet!

Post by Doc »

mattedfred wrote:
perhpas i was wrong the last time i dutied out in YXU which is not a base for my employer?
You called it a day in London? What's that, 40 minutes from Toronto? I'm not in any way saying you were wrong. You were totally correct to do so, if the clock called for it, but I'll bet you got some heat over it? Some calls are harder to make than others. But, I guess, if you carried on, only to skid off the end of the runway.....
At least London has a Keg. I'd have a hard time calling it a day in a town without a Keg....
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Re: Well done WestJet!

Post by Randleman »

mattedfred wrote:
Randleman wrote:Okay people, Puerto Vallarta is NOT a westjet base!!
For goodness sake, these pilots know what they are doing.
i didn't realize that one could only duty out at a location that one's own airline has a base

perhpas i was wrong the last time i dutied out in YXU which is not a base for my employer?
Well that's a discussion for another thread. It's not pointless, but it's WAYYY off topic for this thread.
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Re: Well done WestJet!

Post by Doc »

Saw a stray cat on the way to work this morning. Sorry, silly me. Thought this was the ADHD thread.... :smt040 :smt040
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Re: Well done WestJet!

Post by Pratt X 3 »

Jastapilot wrote:cut'n paste:
604.30 Flight duty time may be extended beyond the maximum flight duty times referred to in subsections 604.27(1) and 604.28(1)
Could you post a link to those CARS references? I didn't realize there were max duty times for private flights. I can't find it anywhere in the CARS.
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Randleman
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Re: Well done WestJet!

Post by Randleman »

Pratt X 3 wrote:
Jastapilot wrote:cut'n paste:
604.30 Flight duty time may be extended beyond the maximum flight duty times referred to in subsections 604.27(1) and 604.28(1)
Could you post a link to those CARS references? I didn't realize there were max duty times for private flights. I can't find it anywhere in the CARS.
Can you not discuss this in another thread?
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Re: Well done WestJet!

Post by Pratt X 3 »

Randleman wrote:
Pratt X 3 wrote:
Jastapilot wrote:cut'n paste:
604.30 Flight duty time may be extended beyond the maximum flight duty times referred to in subsections 604.27(1) and 604.28(1)
Could you post a link to those CARS references? I didn't realize there were max duty times for private flights. I can't find it anywhere in the CARS.
Can you not discuss this in another thread?
:evil: Aw, no. No, I will not start another thread just to ask a question about a post in this thread. That wouldn't seem prudent. Just because you were the originator of this thread doesn't mean you get to control it. You may have started it but then it brought about the discussion on duty days and extending due to unforeseen circumstances. And that happened on the second post of the thread. But you have the balls to single me out, when I ask another person who posted on your precious thread a question? Seriously? Isn't that the point of the forum; to discuss topics relating to aviation? And what exactly was the point of your original post? You flew on WestJet and they had an IROP and they handled it. What did you think would happen? WestJet would read this and offer you a job because you praised them on the internet? Is this a lame attempt at sucking up to them so you can have a better chance at a job with them in the future? Are you going to attach your original post to your resume? Is that why you are getting all ruffled under the collar when others pointed out the possible CARS infraction? And if that wasn't your intent and you didn't want all the attention and the discussion, why did you post this in the General Comments section of the board when the WestJet section is available? Seriously dude.

Now, back to the topic at hand. Can anyone post a link to the CARS reference above? I'm thinking Jastapilot might have quoted his companies ops manual where they took the 700 series CARS for duty times and changed them to reflect their 604 operation but by coincidence they are in the 6th section of said ops manual. I'm just interested in seeing where they came from. Thanks.
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Randleman
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Re: Well done WestJet!

Post by Randleman »

Pratt X 3 wrote:
Randleman wrote:
Can you not discuss this in another thread?
:evil: Aw, no. No, I will not start another thread just to ask a question about a post in this thread. That wouldn't seem prudent. Just because you were the originator of this thread doesn't mean you get to control it. You may have started it but then it brought about the discussion on duty days and extending due to unforeseen circumstances. And that happened on the second post of the thread. But you have the balls to single me out, when I ask another person who posted on your precious thread a question? Seriously? Isn't that the point of the forum; to discuss topics relating to aviation? And what exactly was the point of your original post? You flew on WestJet and they had an IROP and they handled it. What did you think would happen? WestJet would read this and offer you a job because you praised them on the internet? Is this a lame attempt at sucking up to them so you can have a better chance at a job with them in the future? Are you going to attach your original post to your resume? Is that why you are getting all ruffled under the collar when others pointed out the possible CARS infraction? And if that wasn't your intent and you didn't want all the attention and the discussion, why did you post this in the General Comments section of the board when the WestJet section is available? Seriously dude.

Now, back to the topic at hand. Can anyone post a link to the CARS reference above? I'm thinking Jastapilot might have quoted his companies ops manual where they took the 700 series CARS for duty times and changed them to reflect their 604 operation but by coincidence they are in the 6th section of said ops manual. I'm just interested in seeing where they came from. Thanks.
Oh yeah, you are a genious! Let's go out there and expose my identity so everyone can know who I am! Brilliant!! :roll: I seriously LOLd at your idea of sucking up.

No, the topic at hand was "Thank you westjet" not "oh I think they wont over your duty time." Use your brain.

Mods, pls remove this thread
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Re: Well done WestJet!

Post by Doc »

This is the thread that never ends
it just goes on and on my friend,
some people started posting here, not knowing what it was,
and they continue posting on it
just because,
this is the thread that never ends
it just goes on........
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Re: Well done WestJet!

Post by iflyforpie »

I heard a Dash 8 went off the end of the runway at North Bay... :D
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Rotten Apple #1
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Re: Well done WestJet!

Post by Rotten Apple #1 »

When do I get to talk about WestJet's Fatigue Matrix?
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Re: Well done WestJet!

Post by Pratt X 3 »

Randleman wrote:Oh yeah, you are a genious! Let's go out there and expose my identity so everyone can know who I am! Brilliant!! :roll: I seriously LOLd at your idea of sucking up.
No, the topic at hand was "Thank you westjet" not "oh I think they wont over your duty time." Use your brain.
So what was the response you expected when you posted your first post in this thread? It was your post that brought out the duty time discussion and since you don't seem to have any expert opinion to add to it, why are you getting all bent out of shape? You seem to be taking it personally gauging by your poorly worded response. Relax, buddy. Besides, WestJet has already flagged all the passengers on that return flight so that if their name ever applies for a job, they will give you an extra star during the hiring process for publicly praising them. :wink:
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Re: Well done WestJet!

Post by Doc »

jonny dangerous wrote:When do I get to talk about WestJet's Fatigue Matrix?
WYF IS a Fatigue Matrix??

Like a circle, never ending, like a wheel within a wheel....
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