Well done WestJet!

[Randleman]

So I was on westjet flight 2153 from Puerto Vallarta to Vancouver today, I get to the airport for the departure time, only to find out after I get to my gate that the flight has been delayed by almost four hours. It turns out, the flight to Puerto Vallarta was diverted due to a medical emergency. Understandable, and obviously when health gets involved, making sure the patient is safe is top priority. The delay added almost 4 hours into the flight, so by the time the crew got to PVO and were turned around, they had been on duty for almost 11 hours, with at least 5 hours to go back to Vancouver. Needless to say, paperwork would have to be done if they did not cancel the flight, which they did not. But wouldn't you know it, less then one hour into the flight the flight attendant comes on the PA and asks "Pardon the interruption passengers, but is anyone on here a Doctor or Medical personnel?" Yup, another medical issue. Fortunately this one turned out to be not as serious, and a diversion was not required.

I have to say, the crew handled it very well! I hope when I get there and am put in that situation, I handle it as professionally, level headed, calm, and collected as this crew did. If any of the crew members from this flight reads this, a BIG thank you to getting us home!
Cheers

[Mustard]

16hr duty day? Ouch.

[Doc]

16hr duty day? Ouch.

Extenuating circumstances. No big. They'll get a couple of days off to recoup. They sit in a comfy cockpit, while a guy named "Auto" (a German guy, I'm told) does all the flying. The tea or coffee is delivered by an attractive (in most cases) young "trolley dolly". I could do a 16 hour day like that standing on my head. Trick is, don't make it a habit. And, they don't.

[Mustard]

Is that even legal though?

[Rockie]

I could do a 16 hour day like that standing on my head.

Most people could (well, maybe not standing on their head...16 hours is still a mighty long time). A 16 hour night is a different matter though, and Transport Canada doesn't make any distinction between night and day.

[Doc]

I could do a 16 hour day like that standing on my head.

Most people could. A 16 hour night is a different matter though, and Transport Canada doesn't make any distinction between night and day.

I'm just trying to imagine the logistics of calling it a day in PV? What a level "A" PITA that would have been. I'd bite the bullet and head her home, as well. It IS close though. Where would we draw the "line"? I can see 16 hours, but 18? Probably not. It's not like you're making the call in YVR, you're going to have 130 or more pax holed up in Mexico with no accommodations. A crew that will take several hours to even find a bed, plus the 8 hours of rest they require to reset the clock......chew that over. You would, realistically be looking at a 10-12 hour lay over....yikes. This has to go under the heading, "Shit Happens"

[Rockie]

The absolute legal maximum with extenuating circumstances and two pilots is 17 hours. Anything beyond that and your life had better hang in the balance.

I'm usually loathe to call duty time as well. But if it needs to be done because you're too tired to extend then so be it. Safety trumps convenience, and I've done it in places equally as inconvenient where people had to be put in a hotel. Cost of doing business.

[balfour]

16hr duty day? Ouch.

Extenuating circumstances. No big. They'll get a couple of days off to recoup. They sit in a comfy cockpit, while a guy named "Auto" (a German guy, I'm told) does all the flying. The tea or coffee is delivered by an attractive (in most cases) young "trolley dolly". I could do a 16 hour day like that standing on my head. Trick is, don't make it a habit. And, they don't.

Yes you're right, it's no big deal for the pilots. The poor flight attendants on the other hand would have had a VERY tough day. They are also part of the crew. Well done by all.

[Doc]

The absolute legal maximum with extenuating circumstances and two pilots is 17 hours. Anything beyond that and your life had better hang in the balance.

I'm usually loathe to call duty time as well. But if it needs to be done because you're too tired to extend then so be it. Safety trumps convenience, and I've done it in places equally as inconvenient where people had to be put in a hotel. Cost of doing business.

Funny thing is.....safe does not always equal legal. Legal does not always equal safe.

I've had days where I'm a sack of shit after 6 hours, yet I've had days where I'm bright eyed and bushy tailed after 15 hours. I know you have been there as well.

[double-j]

And just to expand on this WJ would not dispatch an aircraft if it is to land after 16 hrs. In no case can you fly beyond 17, instead you would have to divert.

jj

[trey kule]

Funny thing is.....safe does not always equal legal. Legal does not always equal safe.

Are you sure Doc? Because that is pretty much exactly how TC sees it.

I understand clearly what you mean. Ever think of calling it quits when you are scheduled for 7 hrs duty and bushed after 5? Not a chance. We push ourselves the extra hours..It is simply what we do... Seriously, the whole duty day thing is necessary as if it did not exist there would be some companies that would expect pilots to fly 22 hours a day..and wash the planes in the extra two hours... So it really is necessary to have limits. Up to the flight crew to decide if they are unable to work to those limits on a certain day, though I think few actually do make it an issue.
It really is one of those things that the regulator needs to get involved in.

[yycflyguy]

To quote a famous AvCanada poster:

The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no

Let's look at the flip side. After their 16 hour day they hypothetically go off the end of a slippery runway. Now the whole world finds out about their decision to fly back to YVR after a long day and the operating crew gets to be scrutinized for electing to go when they were clearly fatigued (lawyer spin). How impressed would everyone be then?

I am curious to hear what their previous 7 days were like and if they did them standing on their heads in a comfy seat.

[mattedfred]

i'm not commenting on this case but departing when you know that your duty day will be more than 14 hours is illegal regardless of why your departure was delayed

prior duty time plus forecast departure time and enroute time and checkout time equals your total duty day

[tailgunner]

Mattedfred is right. Unforseen does not apply when a crew is sitting in the cockpit, doing their pre-flight, knowing that when they apply take-off power they will be over their duty day.

[Invertago]

Funny thing is.....safe does not always equal legal. Legal does not always equal safe.

Care to back that up in the CARs?

[4blue]

Actually... Unforeseen circumstances, in the eyes of TC, is anything that occurs after CHECK IN. It has NOTHING to do with whether or not you're on the ground, or already airborne. I know this because my company told me this and I said "HA, YEAH RIGHT!" I then followed up with TC, and that is the case.

HOWEVER, you can only go "unforeseen" for very limited reasons:

1) Maintenance
2) ATC Delay
3) Weather

I'm not sure where this "medical issue" would fall.

I do know for a fact that late passengers are NOT an acceptable (in the eyes of TC) reason to go unforeseen.
I also know that late cargo is NOT an acceptable reason.
Late crew / a/c from a previous trip is NOT an acceptable reason. i.e. You show at X but your airplane isn't there because the previous crew was delayed.

The way TC explained it to me is that anything the company can "control" is not acceptable. If the passengers are late, well technically you _could_ leave. That's why it's not acceptable.

I think that a medical diversion could really go either way, and that there would surely be compassion for it AS LONG AS NOTHING ELSE HAPPENED.

The problem with extending your day for "unforeseen" reasons is that if something TOTALLY UNRELATED happens, you'll still be seen as a cause factor. "Well, if so-and-so hadn't done a 16 hour day, they may have reacted faster to X (birds, other a/c, etc.)" Something to think about next time you say "well, I just want to get home tonight."

[FICU]

You cannot depart a company base of operations knowing you will be extending past 14 hours. If you are not at a base then it's allowed if the unforeseen circumstance is applicable.

Why a base? Because if your company knows you will be going over 14 hours they can easily replace the crew from the pilots at the base.

[flyincanuck]

FICU, well said.

[quote="4blue"]
...Unforeseen circumstances, in the eyes of TC, is anything that occurs after CHECK IN.
[/quote="4blue"]

Did you get the CARs reference stating exactly this? The thing about TC is that you can talk to 5 inspectors, and get 5 different answers. Neither one of them will back you up at the tribunal.

[Doc]

Funny thing is.....safe does not always equal legal. Legal does not always equal safe.

Care to back that up in the CARs?

So, you're saying that if something is legal, it's always safe? I'd give that some thought if I were you.
You need to look no further than "legal" flight duty limits to find many examples of "legal" NOT being safe. Look them up. I don't need to.

[Tiny Tyke]

FROM TC:

From: Sherritt, Donald [SHERRID@tc.gc.ca]
Sent: August 14, 2008 08:34
To: --
Cc: CAIRS / SSQAC_National, Webster, Ralph
Subject: Response - Civil Aviation Issues Reporting System file number JH-xxxx.

Dear Mr. --:

As you are aware, the recent concerns you expressed in your submission of August 6, 2008 were entered into the Civil Aviation Issues Reporting System and were assigned file number JH-xxxx. As a result of my review of the above referenced file, I would like to take this opportunity to provide you with the following information:

The paragraph below provides the short answer to your question. I have included additional information to provide you with a thorough explanation of Transport Canada's position on the issue of unforeseen operational circumstances.

* Transport Canada has chosen the beginning of the flight crew's duty day as the reference point for determining if a circumstance was unforeseen. The other option would be the beginning of the flight in question . The beginning of the flight option is felt to be too restrictive because only in the rarest of circumstances would an operational circumstance be unforeseen.

The maximum flight time limitations for the 365, 90, 30, and 7 days periods may be extended by up to 3 consecutive hours provided that the flight is extended as a result of unforeseen operational circumstances.

The maximum flight duty time of 14 consecutive hours in any 24 consecutive hours may be extended by up to 3 consecutive hours provided that the flight is extended as a result of unforeseen operational circumstances.

Flights shall be planned to be completed within the maximum allowable flight time and flight duty time taking into account the time necessary for pre-flight and post-flight duties, the flight or series of flights, forecast weather, turn-around times, and the nature of the operation.

Planning is considered to be unrealistic if the maximum flight time or flight duty time on a particular route is exceeded on more than 10% of occasions where 10 or more flights follow that route in a calendar year. The air operator shall take appropriate action to ensure that the planning is realistic and the flight or series of flights is completed within the maximum allowable flight time and flight duty time. Flights on routes of less frequency than 10 per year should be dealt with on a case-to-case basis.

The basic principle:
It must be remembered that the definition of "unforeseen operational circumstances" contains two elements:
* It is unforeseen, and,
* It is an operational circumstance.
From CAR 101.01:

"Unforeseen operational circumstance" means an event, such as unforecast adverse weather, or an equipment malfunction or air traffic control delay, that is beyond the control of an air operator or private operator,

From the Canadian Oxford Dictionary:

foreseen - be aware of beforehand.
beforehand - in anticipation, in advance

The question that follows is - In anticipation or in advance of what? At what point does an unforeseen circumstance become foreseen? Transport Canada has chosen the beginning of the flight crew's duty day as the reference point for determining if a circumstance was unforeseen.

If the air operator or flight crew member is aware of the circumstance before the flight duty period begins, then it is not an unforeseen operational circumstance - the maximum flight time or flight duty time cannot be exceeded.

If the air operator or flight crew member is not aware of the circumstance before the flight duty period begins, then it is an unforeseen operational circumstance - the maximum flight duty time can be extended in accordance with CAR 700.17.

What is an "unforeseen operational circumstance"?

Unforeseen operational circumstances relate solely to operational circumstances, which result in delays to a planned schedule. In other words, these circumstances must be crew, weather, aircraft mechanical, ATC or emergency related and must directly affect the operation of the aircraft. Delaying the departure of a flight to wait for a delayed passenger may have an operational effect on the schedule, but it is not unforeseen operational circumstance. Unforecast adverse weather - not forecast prior to the beginning of the flight duty time period in question. The winds at altitude turn out to be stronger than forecast, resulting in an en route delay. Those stronger than forecast winds may thus lead to an "unforeseen operational circumstance".

An equipment malfunction - the aircraft becomes unserviceable resulting in a delay. Assuming that this occurs after the flight duty time period begins then it is unforeseen. The same would apply for an air traffic control delay that was not foreseen.

An unforeseen operational circumstance cannot cascade from one flight crew's flight duty time period to another flight crew's. Example: Flight crew Alpha, flying from Vancouver to Toronto, is delayed for two hours because of a mechanical problem discovered before pushback in Vancouver. This is an unforeseen operational circumstance. The same aircraft is scheduled for a flight originating from Toronto, crewed by flight crew Bravo. The two hours Vancouver delay will result in a delay for flight crew Bravo. Can flight crew Bravo extend their flight duty time because of the Vancouver delay? No. The air operator is obviously aware of the Vancouver delay before flight crew Bravo begins their flight duty time period. For flight crew Bravo the circumstance is not unforeseen.

What is not an unforeseen operational circumstance?

Delaying an aircraft to wait for connecting passengers. An unforeseen operational circumstance may have been the cause of the delay for the flight of the connecting passengers, but the decision to delay another aircraft for connecting passengers is not an unforeseen operational circumstance. It is a decision made by the air operator.
Adding an additional flight / leg to the day's schedule - i.e. an unscheduled charter opportunity presents itself or the client decides to add an additional destination to the schedule. These types of events may be unforeseen but they are not operational circumstances. Extensions to the flight time or flight duty time limits are not permitted in these circumstances.

Flight Time Limitation Extension

CAR 700.15 states: "The maximum flight time...may be exceeded if the flight is extended... as a result of unforeseen operational circumstances..."

This means that the extension to the flight time limitations, due to unforeseen operational circumstances, may be applied to the last flight or last day's flights of the period in question. The intent here is to allow a flight to continue to destination rather than diverting to another airport if an unforeseen operational circumstance is encountered. As an example, a flight scheduled to be completed within the flight time limits encounters unforecast headwinds enroute. The additional flight time will cause one of the flight crew members to exceed the maximum weekly flight time. The flight can continue to destination, however, for audit purposes a report should be filed with the company and Transport Canada according to the unforeseen operational circumstances section of the Commercial Air Service Standards

I would like to take this opportunity to thank you for sharing your views, as all comments we receive are appreciated.

Should you have any further questions, please feel free to contact Ralph Webster at <613> 990-1080 or via e-mail at webster@tc.gc.ca.

Sincerely,

Don Sherritt
Director, Standards/Directeur, Normes
<613> 952-4371 | facsimile / télécopieur <613>952-3298
sherrid@tc.gc.ca
Transport Canada | Tower C Place de Ville, Ottawa, Ontario K1A 0N8
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