TSB introduces Watchlist

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Widow
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TSB introduces Watchlist

Post by Widow »

http://www.bst-tsb.gc.ca/eng/surveillance-watchlist/
AVIATION
Problem
There is ongoing risk that aircraft may collide with vehicles or other aircraft on the ground at Canadian airports.

Solution
Improved procedures and the adoption of enhanced collision warning systems are required at Canada's airports.

Problem
Fatalities continue to occur when planes collide with land and water while under crew control.

Solution
Wider use of technology is needed to help pilots assess their proximity to terrain.

Problem
Landing accidents and runway overruns continue to occur at Canadian airports.

Solution
In bad weather, pilots need to receive timely information about runway surface conditions.

Airports need to lengthen the safety areas at the end of runways or install other engineered systems and structures to safely stop planes that overrun.

MULTI-MODAL
Problem
Implemented properly, safety management systems (SMS) allow transportation companies to identify hazards, manage risks, and develop and follow effective safety processes.

However, TC does not always provide effective oversight of transportation companies transitioning to SMS, while some companies are not even required to have one.

Solution
Air: The integration of SMS practices into day-to-day operations must be closely monitored by TC to ensure that industry, as a whole, makes a smooth transition to an SMS environment.

Problem
Data critical to understanding how and why transportation accidents happen are frequently lost, damaged or not required to be collected.

Solution
Air: Global efforts are required to build better recorders, to enhance the quality and duration of their recordings, and to ensure they keep recording when the power supply fails.
Forgive my cynicism, but ... WTF??

Compare to the NTSB's "Most Wanted" list @ http://www.ntsb.gov/recs/mostwanted/aviation_issues.htm
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Dust Devil
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Re: TSB introduces Watchlist

Post by Dust Devil »

What are you objecting too?
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Re: TSB introduces Watchlist

Post by RVgrin »

Widow wrote:http://www.bst-tsb.gc.ca/eng/surveillance-watchlist/
Problem
Data critical to understanding how and why transportation accidents happen are frequently lost, damaged or not required to be collected.

Solution
Air: Global efforts are required to build better recorders, to enhance the quality and duration of their recordings, and to ensure they keep recording when the power supply fails.
That is all well and good, but I'd suggest moving towards also broadcasting the data in real time to satellites.
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Re: TSB introduces Watchlist

Post by C-FABH »

Dust Devil wrote:What are you objecting to?
Perhaps that the TSB "Recommendations" are presented (at least on this webpage) in a rather vague and simple manner. The presentation and layout of the NTSB page (such as the action summaries and formal recommendations) provide a much more in-depth and valuable resource.
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Re: TSB introduces Watchlist

Post by cyeg66 »

Re: Short runways in need of extended safety areas: Since airports have now been putting plenty o' cash in gov't coffers (and being asked to put progressively greater sums in...), how about if the feds relieve the various affected airport authorities and pay for EMAS or pay to extend those same runways? It's nice to make a recommendation and all but I don't necessarily think that will light a fire under airport authorities that are already operating under slim margins or losing ca$h. I wonder which runways , including the aforementioned YYZ 06R/24L, are under scrutiny? I would imagine Calgary's 10/28 qualifies, perhaps YUL's 10/28 also. Hmmm. :smt017
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Dust Devil
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Re: TSB introduces Watchlist

Post by Dust Devil »

C-FABH wrote:
Dust Devil wrote:What are you objecting to?
Perhaps that the TSB "Recommendations" are presented (at least on this webpage) in a rather vague and simple manner. The presentation and layout of the NTSB page (such as the action summaries and formal recommendations) provide a much more in-depth and valuable resource.
Possibly that is the objection. I have no idea.
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Re: TSB introduces Watchlist

Post by Dust Devil »

So Widow I'm curious are you upset with the content or the way it is presented?
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Widow
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Re: TSB introduces Watchlist

Post by Widow »

First Dust Devil, I didn't say I "objected", I made mention of my "cynicism" ... a little different, don't you think?

How much time and money do you think they spent on creating this list? Considering that the NTSB created its "Most Wanted" list way back in 1990, and that, for instance, runway incursions and human fatigue were on their list then and both are STILL on the list (fatigue is still red lighted!), just how much difference has having the list made?

Especially in light of the C-TSB including SMS on their "Watchlist", it is my humble opinion that the safety agenda would be better served if the TSB provided accessible information through a searchable database that includes findings on ALL accidents and incidents that were required to be reported, whatever the class of investigation.
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Re: TSB introduces Watchlist

Post by Panama Jack »

Top it off with very weak, docile wording. I was expecting by "surveillance" I was going to find something impressionable akin to the EU's Blacklist of Airlines. After clicking the site, I even lost interest in checking any of the links. Perhaps an "English as a second language" issue?

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Re: TSB introduces Watchlist

Post by Dust Devil »

Widow wrote:First Dust Devil, I didn't say I "objected", I made mention of my "cynicism" ... a little different, don't you think?

How much time and money do you think they spent on creating this list? Considering that the NTSB created its "Most Wanted" list way back in 1990, and that, for instance, runway incursions and human fatigue were on their list then and both are STILL on the list (fatigue is still red lighted!), just how much difference has having the list made?

Especially in light of the C-TSB including SMS on their "Watchlist", it is my humble opinion that the safety agenda would be better served if the TSB provided accessible information through a searchable database that includes findings on ALL accidents and incidents that were required to be reported, whatever the class of investigation.
Didn't mean to offend you Widow. It's just when someone posts a link and simply says WTF and asks to have the two sites compared I was just curious what you were getting at.

I'll refrain from posting in anymore of your threads. I obviously rub you the wrong way.
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Widow
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Re: TSB introduces Watchlist

Post by Widow »

I don't offend that easily Dust Devil ... and, AFAIK, you've never rubbed me any which way at all ;)

P.S. Did my answer satisfy you?
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Re: TSB introduces Watchlist

Post by Tube Driver »

Runway 28 in CYYC is one that should be looked at as it essentially a "Buffalo Jump" at the end ont Deerfoot Trail. I have seen many wide body aircraft use this runway with zero overrun available. Not to mention the fact that many of the large cargo company aircraft land long so that it is a shorter taxi to their facilities. This runway is an accident waiting to happen.
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Re: TSB introduces Watchlist

Post by RampGurl »

Tube Driver wrote:Runway 28 in CYYC is one that should be looked at as it essentially a "Buffalo Jump" at the end ont Deerfoot Trail. I have seen many wide body aircraft use this runway with zero overrun available. Not to mention the fact that many of the large cargo company aircraft land long so that it is a shorter taxi to their facilities. This runway is an accident waiting to happen.
So Airports and/or taxes should pay to extend a runway so cargo aircraft don't have to taxi so far?
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Re: TSB introduces Watchlist

Post by corytrevor »

Tube Driver wrote:Runway 28 in CYYC is one that should be looked at as it essentially a "Buffalo Jump" at the end ont Deerfoot Trail. I have seen many wide body aircraft use this runway with zero overrun available. Not to mention the fact that many of the large cargo company aircraft land long so that it is a shorter taxi to their facilities. This runway is an accident waiting to happen.
The cargo companies land long on 28 for a shorter taxi?! Are you for real??? You really believe that professional airline pilots do this?

This kind of comment makes me wonder about the average IQ posting here.
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Re: TSB introduces Watchlist

Post by Localizer »

AVIATION
Problem
There is ongoing risk that aircraft may collide with vehicles or other aircraft on the ground at Canadian airports.

Solution
Improved procedures and the adoption of enhanced collision warning systems are required at Canada's airports.
Most of the vehicles hit PARKED airplanes!
Problem
Fatalities continue to occur when planes collide with land and water while under crew control.

Solution
Wider use of technology is needed to help pilots assess their proximity to terrain.
Are they referring to airlines or remote operators?? I can't remember the last CFIT accident since advanced TAWS was introduced?

Problem
Landing accidents and runway overruns continue to occur at Canadian airports.

Solution
In bad weather, pilots need to receive timely information about runway surface conditions.
Air France landed halfway down the runway .. an accurate RSC wouldn't have made a difference in the end result.

SMS is a broken system that allows companies to avoid action on safety issues, in favour of a paper trail that says they new about it and planned to do something about it.

Its always the same .. avoid the real problems and put bullsh*t like this in print to make the general public feel like the system is working.
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Re: TSB introduces Watchlist

Post by Tim »

corytrevor wrote:
Tube Driver wrote:Runway 28 in CYYC is one that should be looked at as it essentially a "Buffalo Jump" at the end ont Deerfoot Trail. I have seen many wide body aircraft use this runway with zero overrun available. Not to mention the fact that many of the large cargo company aircraft land long so that it is a shorter taxi to their facilities. This runway is an accident waiting to happen.
The cargo companies land long on 28 for a shorter taxi?! Are you for real??? You really believe that professional airline pilots do this?

This kind of comment makes me wonder about the average IQ posting here.
you really believe nobody lands long??!?!!? i read through some of your old posts...it seems you get off on making asshole-ish comments, as you seem to have difficulty posting without insulting someone. it also seems you're forte is providing critisism as opposed to points which contribute to a discussion.

back to the topic at hand. it seems these 'solutions' that are provided aren't very helpful. very generic, without substantial information. they seem to be along the lines of 'make the bad stuff better'
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Re: TSB introduces Watchlist

Post by cyeg66 »

RampGurl wrote:
So Airports and/or taxes should pay to extend a runway so cargo aircraft don't have to taxi so far?
Interpreting others' comments in a purely literal sense, then it would appear to be the case. However, it's my belief that some of the exorbitant (and unfairly/insanely levied) sums of moolah handed to the big GoC in Ottawa should actually go back into airports sometimes. I know, a novel idea, completely new age.... Rather than paying for each MP to have 5 or 6 assistants doing lord knows what and/or re-surfacing Sparks St with gold bricks.... :evil: And whether they choose to land long or not, they'll have to come to a stop in a relatively quick fashion (unless they want to do an Eddie the Eagle impression over the ravine and onto Deerfoot...:)
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Re: TSB introduces Watchlist

Post by Cat Driver »

The solutions that come out of some of these press releases from our guardians in Ottawa or where ever never cease to astound me in their simplicity, here is my favorite from this last offering.

Solution
In bad weather, pilots need to receive timely information about runway surface conditions.
Therefore it would stand to reason that the crews who are licensed and deemed to be competent in these airplanes are to stupid to figure out a wet or icy runway might be slippery.

Unless they just arrived at the approach to said runway from a time warp from another galaxy. :drinkers: :drinkers: :drinkers: :drinkers: :drinkers: :drinkers: :drinkers:
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Re: TSB introduces Watchlist

Post by c170b53 »

Was some time ago but it was a classic
On approach to YUL " AH...Montreal tower can you give us the runway condition"
Yul Tower " We will pass on the runway conditions from the Air Canada landing ahead of you"
and in about 5 seconds
" Ah tower this is Air Canada, we would like that report too..., before we land"
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Re: TSB introduces Watchlist

Post by Lost Lake »

Unless they just arrived at the approach to said runway from a time warp from another galaxy.
Acch, Captain Kirk, the warp engines are nay shuttin doon!! I canna help it!!! :smt017 :smt017
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Re: TSB introduces Watchlist

Post by double-j »

corytrevor wrote:
Tube Driver wrote:Runway 28 in CYYC is one that should be looked at as it essentially a "Buffalo Jump" at the end ont Deerfoot Trail. I have seen many wide body aircraft use this runway with zero overrun available. Not to mention the fact that many of the large cargo company aircraft land long so that it is a shorter taxi to their facilities. This runway is an accident waiting to happen.
The cargo companies land long on 28 for a shorter taxi?! Are you for real??? You really believe that professional airline pilots do this?

This kind of comment makes me wonder about the average IQ posting here.
I would agree with this poster with the exception that no large turbojet operators intentionally land long on 28 for the sake of taxi time, especially in adverse conditions.

But I'm sure you guys know better so..
Flame away gents....
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Re: TSB introduces Watchlist

Post by Tube Driver »

corytrevor, how long have you been the business? have you ever flown cargo? Do you know any cargo pilots? A number of years ago I saw a KFC 727 land on 25 in yyc and make Charlie. You do the math. This was before they relocated the cargo ramp after which many touched down just prior to the 16/34 intersection to "expedite" for tower. Expediting in yyc is common as to the traffic and intersecting runways. Again you can do the math seeing as you are such an obvious pro airline pilot. I am not saying it is right or safe, all I am doing is letting you know what I have seen.
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Re: TSB introduces Watchlist

Post by Meatservo »

Problem: Bad things happen sometimes

Solution: An omniscient, omnipotent, caring being in the sky who can protect all of us from bad things. With lasers.
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Re: TSB introduces Watchlist

Post by crankedup »

corytrevor wrote:
Tube Driver wrote:
Runway 28 in CYYC is one that should be looked at as it essentially a "Buffalo Jump" at the end ont Deerfoot Trail. I have seen many wide body aircraft use this runway with zero overrun available. Not to mention the fact that many of the large cargo company aircraft land long so that it is a shorter taxi to their facilities. This runway is an accident waiting to happen.


The cargo companies land long on 28 for a shorter taxi?! Are you for real??? You really believe that professional airline pilots do this?

This kind of comment makes me wonder about the average IQ posting here.


you really believe nobody lands long??!?!!? i read through some of your old posts...it seems you get off on making asshole-ish comments, as you seem to have difficulty posting without insulting someone. it also seems you're forte is providing critisism as opposed to points which contribute to a discussion.

back to the topic at hand. it seems these 'solutions' that are provided aren't very helpful. very generic, without substantial information. they seem to be along the lines of 'make the bad stuff better'

Tim, your comments are out of line.

Tube Driver, you are either very naive to post what you did about wide-bodied aircraft landing long to save a long taxi or, dare I say it, stupid.
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Re: TSB introduces Watchlist

Post by Tube Driver »

Call me what you will, all I am doing is relating what I have seen and heard. No agenda or slagging on these guys, It is what it is. You can can me naive or stupid, but I am not blind or deaf.
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