Greetings!
As I understand it FAA laws don't permit a turban and beard for pilots in the cockpit..I'm assuming it's safety issues..(ie. oxygen mask) is this true for Canada as well?
Wearing a Turban/Beard in the cockpit..
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Hmm .. have you never seen a turban?
As for the beard, I am friends with a British Airways 777 Capt. who has flown for 15 years with a turban and beard, so surely the idea of the O2 mask not providing a proper seal should not be an issue?? When I say beard I don't mean one that's down to the chest
Is it a Canadian aviation law not to have a beard and turban in the cockpit, or is that at the discretion of airlines to permit it? The beard and turban is a religious requirement in the Sikh faith, would that have any influence?
As for the beard, I am friends with a British Airways 777 Capt. who has flown for 15 years with a turban and beard, so surely the idea of the O2 mask not providing a proper seal should not be an issue?? When I say beard I don't mean one that's down to the chest
Is it a Canadian aviation law not to have a beard and turban in the cockpit, or is that at the discretion of airlines to permit it? The beard and turban is a religious requirement in the Sikh faith, would that have any influence?
There is no law I've seen regarding either a turban or a beard. I've seen many pilots from airlines outside this country wearing both. I've flown with guys with beards....I'm pretty sure Paddy Doyle at First Air has a beard? Like to see anybody give him a hard time on that score. An airline not allowing a turban(while they're not really my style, you understand)would be leaving themselves open to a law suit! The RCMP allows turbans.....I cant see an airline getting away with discriminating against them.....now that slick little dagger...a kirpan?...now that's a different matter.
I don't know about the turban issue.
But as for the beard, it is ok in Canada, I know First Air pilots who have had/do have beards. It was an issue at one point, I believe that was when they brought the 727's online. But they proved that it all worked fine so it was allowed. I have no idea if it is addressed in the CAR's or not.
But as for the beard, it is ok in Canada, I know First Air pilots who have had/do have beards. It was an issue at one point, I believe that was when they brought the 727's online. But they proved that it all worked fine so it was allowed. I have no idea if it is addressed in the CAR's or not.
I think it's more company policy than government regulation.
From what I understand, British Airways is one of the more liberal airlines (imagine that!) with regard to facial hair. Air Canada does not allow anything more than a mustache. And it is because of the oxygen masks.
Don't know anything about the turbans.
From what I understand, British Airways is one of the more liberal airlines (imagine that!) with regard to facial hair. Air Canada does not allow anything more than a mustache. And it is because of the oxygen masks.
Don't know anything about the turbans.
02 masks that are free flow dont need much of a seal. Or is that seel? Okay, which one is that fish eating thing that balances balls on it's nose?
And if they are not free flow, smoke can get inside the mask. That's the whole idea. Havent seen a demand reg for a while. I even set my scuba reg for a very slight free flow.
And if they are not free flow, smoke can get inside the mask. That's the whole idea. Havent seen a demand reg for a while. I even set my scuba reg for a very slight free flow.
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mental vomit
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From the companies I have had the honour to be employed with, the wearing of a beard or turban in the cockpit is completely allowed as it does not interfere with your overall ability to act safetly and professional. I think our company has it in our human resources guide giving "freedom of respectful religious expression" So if you were employed under my colours, I would cetainly honour your cultural heritage.
Now I personally ran into some trouble early in my career, when an unnamed carrier demanded closer attention to my facial hygiene. I have an impending lawsuit with David Clark over a tangling incident, boy was my face red when the fire trucks rolled up to the gate. Under incident, TC now has a boxed marked "other" because of me
Now I personally ran into some trouble early in my career, when an unnamed carrier demanded closer attention to my facial hygiene. I have an impending lawsuit with David Clark over a tangling incident, boy was my face red when the fire trucks rolled up to the gate. Under incident, TC now has a boxed marked "other" because of me
I like airplanes.
Is that not infringing on one's right for freedom of religion? It appears most outfits in Canada and internationally allow the pugree and the beard, so the O2 mask issue should not be of much concern with Air Canada? (I'm not talking as if I'm going to be hired within the near future, probably never but just curious)gelbisch wrote:Air Canada does not allow anything more than a mustache.
Doc, you mentioned the kirpan (ceremonial dagger) which is required to be worn by all Sikhs. Glad you brought that up. Would that be allowed in the cockpit?
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The People's Pilot
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being sikh myself...
i know the kirpan is not allowed on board the aircraft without question.
and i respect the safety concerns that would arise by having one on an aircraft let alone the cockpit. all the sikhs i know (who travel) have no major problems in complying with the safety regs. so i believe if the sikh pax cannot wear the kirpans on the aircraft then the flight crew should not be able to either.
i know the kirpan is not allowed on board the aircraft without question.
and i respect the safety concerns that would arise by having one on an aircraft let alone the cockpit. all the sikhs i know (who travel) have no major problems in complying with the safety regs. so i believe if the sikh pax cannot wear the kirpans on the aircraft then the flight crew should not be able to either.
Prior to 9/11 and the security checks, the kirpan was unofficialy allowed for aircrew, as long as it was small enough not to hinder emergency egress and it must have been worn under ones uniform and out of sight. Now, no one stands a chance of getting it through security screening. One is still allowed to wear the kara.
Hmmm,
One is hired with the understanding of compliance with company ops procedures and policies. While it is not ones intention to discriminate against anyone, dress codes, the non-carriage of sharp instruments, and trimmed facial hair could be contrary to someones religious beliefs.
Since 9/11 it's safety first no exceptions, so no knives, kirpans, gerbers, or leathermans.
Recognized holidays are an issue too. The days recognized in Canada through labour code do not include the likes of Ramadan. You may practise alternate holidays if you like at your convenience. Just don't expect your employer to rewrite your schedule to accomodate you at the inconvenience of everyone else.
If a company requires all its pilots to be clean shaven, is that discriminatory? All are treated equally within the company. Whether we like it or not masks must seal to provide a barrier against smoke inhalation. Certification of the equipment on the aircraft we fly be it through the CAA, FAA, or TC has certain stipulations in many cases too. Certification is based on safety of operation, not religious freedoms.
It comes down to 'how badly do you want the job and are you prepared to show a little flexibility on your religious beliefs to get the job done?'
Food for thought.
....and yes I've had to surrender the leatherman to the security types after absent mindedly showing up with it clipped to my pocket!
One is hired with the understanding of compliance with company ops procedures and policies. While it is not ones intention to discriminate against anyone, dress codes, the non-carriage of sharp instruments, and trimmed facial hair could be contrary to someones religious beliefs.
Since 9/11 it's safety first no exceptions, so no knives, kirpans, gerbers, or leathermans.
Recognized holidays are an issue too. The days recognized in Canada through labour code do not include the likes of Ramadan. You may practise alternate holidays if you like at your convenience. Just don't expect your employer to rewrite your schedule to accomodate you at the inconvenience of everyone else.
If a company requires all its pilots to be clean shaven, is that discriminatory? All are treated equally within the company. Whether we like it or not masks must seal to provide a barrier against smoke inhalation. Certification of the equipment on the aircraft we fly be it through the CAA, FAA, or TC has certain stipulations in many cases too. Certification is based on safety of operation, not religious freedoms.
It comes down to 'how badly do you want the job and are you prepared to show a little flexibility on your religious beliefs to get the job done?'
Food for thought.
....and yes I've had to surrender the leatherman to the security types after absent mindedly showing up with it clipped to my pocket!
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Panama Jack
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The FAA has no regulations on the books regarding facial hair.
In the Middle East you have some pilots who have beards (these are generally who closely follow Islamic teachings in their daily lives). Nevertheless, there are also companies in the same part of the world who have a "no beards" policy for their pilots.
How does this work out in the end? You don't want to shave, you don't get the job (I specifically know of one case)!
In the Middle East you have some pilots who have beards (these are generally who closely follow Islamic teachings in their daily lives). Nevertheless, there are also companies in the same part of the world who have a "no beards" policy for their pilots.
How does this work out in the end? You don't want to shave, you don't get the job (I specifically know of one case)!
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Doesn't look like there is an aviation regulation relating to this in Canada... There is an AC though:
CBAAC 0185 - The Effect of Beards or Long Hair on the Efficiency of Demand Type, Continuous Flow Oxygen Masks, or Smoke Hoods
Here's the FAA AC:
AC 120-43: The Influence of Beards on Oxygen Mask Efficiency
CBAAC 0185 - The Effect of Beards or Long Hair on the Efficiency of Demand Type, Continuous Flow Oxygen Masks, or Smoke Hoods
Here's the FAA AC:
AC 120-43: The Influence of Beards on Oxygen Mask Efficiency
Love this subject and it always gets a chuckle from me because "I've been here before" eons ago and the subject then was the dreaded one....."I'm allowed to wear long hair if I want and not allowing me is infringing on my Rights". In the days when it was all the fashion and positively rampant all over the place, the company I worked for had "an issue" with an FO who was unrelenting in his demands to keep wearing his long hair. It didn't come down his back, but was below his collar line. He sued the company and he won in fact. Six months later I have the pleasure of his company as FO and I couldn't have cared less what length his hair was myself. We're commited to take-off one day and he reached down quickly between us to grab something (and I can't remember now what it was) and proceeds to get his hair in the channels for the throttles. I had to keep doin' "my thing" and could hear him screaming, but there was no help for him. We get to the assigned altitude and at that point I discover that he's now missing large chunk of hair out of his scalp and his scalp is bleeding. If God had struck me dead at that point I couldn't have wiped the smirk off my face. Saw him two days later and he had a hair cut like the poster-boy for CALPA or AC . I know that he sure didn't look like any "flower child" from then on.
As a reult of the above, I'm afraid that I have to basically agree with what nite_owl has stated. Other than that, another persons Rights of religion, fashion or safety END where my RIGHTS begin...........other than that do whatever "turns-you-on".
As a reult of the above, I'm afraid that I have to basically agree with what nite_owl has stated. Other than that, another persons Rights of religion, fashion or safety END where my RIGHTS begin...........other than that do whatever "turns-you-on".
