CBC Does Pilot Fatigue: March 24- 26

[Mr. North]

Epic post Eric.

In the future you may want to check for spelling and grammar before you put your name on it or expect a reply.

[Intentional Left Bank]

I was somewhat disappointed that Part 2 was rewritten into a reaction story to the airing of Part 1 rather than continuing with the planned content for Part 2, then airing total reaction the special on Friday night's "The National."

I've sent an enquiry to the CBC, but doubt I'll get a timely reply ... if at all.

I think that Part 2 is airing tomorrow, Friday the 26th. The segment you are referring to I think was as you say "a reaction story" to Part 1, not part of the documentary.

[Caracrane]

ben Mr.North si j'ai fais des fautes en englais, "je suis désolé", comme le dirait la chanson de Madonna, mais en attendant, viens pas m'faire chier. Bye (by the way can work in both languages)

[Widow]

Quite right ILB ... part two of fatigue airs tomorrow.

[Caracrane]

old fog, yes cause the plane is not injeopardy probably U would nver do that. had the chance to have 2 NAV LIGHTS each sides! couldn't burn same time I guess. Eric

[Meatservo]

Someone said that if companies are forced to shorten their duty limits they will cut our pay. I disagree with that, because we should be standing together, and not allowing that! If we do, then you can't blame the company or TC for it.

Of course, you're absolutely right, but this is what I see happening anyway. I'm feeling a bit pessimistic I guess. Maybe people won't get their pay cut right away, maybe the raises and cost-of-living adjustments (what's that? ) will become fewer and farther between than they already are. Maybe your benefits will get dialed back without your being aware at the time. Who knows. They'll get you somehow. There's no way anyone is going to get more pay for an hour's worth of the same work than they did before, and if you have to work fewer hours, then you'll get paid less. That's how I see it panning out. I hope you're right and I'm wrong, believe me.

[The Old Fogducker]

old fog, yes cause the plane is not in jeopardy probably U would never do that. had the chance to have 2 NAV LIGHTS each sides! couldn't burn same time I guess. Eric

You're lucky I guess ... none of the ones I flew had two per side.

[xsbank]

You guys who are quick to condemn Mr Gagne, did you not hear that despite working 2 jobs he still made only 28,000? Eating is a reasonable motivation for rule-breaking, don't you think?

I see there was a job posted in Calgary that was offering 14 days on 4 off... Sign me up! Why is this even allowed? The Federal rules are toothless and totally unconcerned with the well-being of it's citizens. No worker under provincial rules would be subjected to that - there would be minimum wage and overtime to deal with for one.

In fact, why are we not just asking for the same wage rules that any worker in a Starbucks gets? If operators had to pay overtime on all duty time, double time or doubletime and a half with an extra day off, operators would quickly change their tunes.

[Buzz Lightyear]

What really matters here is that the problems this industry is facing are finally being exposed to the public. However I must agree that nothing will change unless there's some kind of follow-up.

I really think that Radio Canada and the media in general will, from now on, pay way more attention to any changes that we, as a professional group, try to bring to the industry. With the creation of a College on its way we should not neglect the power of the media to relay our ideas or bring any abuse or safety issues into light.

We now have more amunitions, let's use them!

B.

[Janszoon]

You guys who are quick to condemn Mr Gagne, did you not hear that despite working 2 jobs he still made only 28,000? Eating is a reasonable motivation for rule-breaking, don't you think?

I don't consider breaking rules, in place in an attempt to keep pilots and passengers safe (duty time/flight time limits), as being justification to get more money for sustenance. Would you tell your passengers that you're going to be flying for 18 hours straight, 4 hours above the allowed limit, because you have to make more money?

"Well folks, this is the captain speaking. Seeing as how I don't make enough money, I'm now working my second job and flying over my allowed duty time, and I'm also way over my allowed flight time for the month. I know I'm breaking the rules and I do feel very tired, but I'm going to keep pushing the limits because TC hasn't come by to stop me. That's just the way it is in this business if you want to get more hours and make more money. Oh well, have a nice flight."

You're not stealing a loaf of bread to feed your family, you have peoples' lives in your hands. On every flight, you should be able to look your passengers in the eyes and tell them that you are abiding by air law and that safety is your top priority. If you can't do that, why are you putting their lives and your life at risk? I'm not saying you ground a plane for a faulty light, but when you knowingly are exceeding limits in place to keep you and your passengers safe, is it worth it?

I think it's ridiculous what Gagne was making. That is another issue in itself. What I was pointing out is the fact that Gagne was complaining about the system being lax while at the same time knowingly breaking the rules.

An analogy: if I drive 160 km/h on a Canadian highway, I know I am breaking the law. If a cop happens to be there, I may be caught, but if nobody is around, then I may get away with it. Is it safe? Probably not, but as long as I get away with it and everything is fine, what's the problem? Now say I get in an accident attributed to my excessive speed. Say somebody dies as a result. Now say I start complaining that something needs to change because there is an unsafe culture of highway driving that didn't stop me from speeding.

I'm sure Mr. Gange feels very badly for what happened that day, considering the captain was fatally injured, and that is quite the punishment in and of itself. I'm not trying to rake him over the coals, I'm criticizing this report that uses a very poor example of pilot fatigue where the pilot knowingly went far above the allowed limits that are in place.

His story exposes the problem of pilots breaking the rules and thinking it's fine to do that. His story also exposes the problem of TC not being able to monitor situations like his, but TC can't be looking over our shoulders at all times. We must abide by the rules in place if we expect to call for changes. The only thing I got from that story was: don't succumb to the pressures you put on yourself to advance your career by breaking the rules.

I want to hear the stories of companies trying to fudge the numbers, of pilots feeling forced to break the law, of employers threatening their employees to work above duty limits.

The only pressures on Mr. Gagne were his own; to get more hours and make a better living. You can blame the industry for its low pay, but succumbing to personal pressures of finance is no justification for breaking the rules that the travelling public expect their pilots to be abiding by. Let's get to the REAL stories here.

[North Shore]

Janszoon, I think that you are missing the point. Sure Gagne knowingly busted the rules (and, FWIW, changing the rules isn't going to fix anything - if people broke them before, then they will do so in the future) And while nobody put a gun to his head, the threat of eviction/loss of credit rating/harassing creditors etc, because of low pay is a pretty strong motivator to work two jobs, and thereby break the rules..

[Gino Under]

Flying tired is nothing new to flying.
Whining over strong, weak or just plain stupid regulation is and has always been a total waste of time. They haven't gotten it right yet and you'll likely be old and retired by the time regulation even approaches sensibility.

Self regulate, I say. Simply because it works.

Step 1 - Are you tired? Yes.
Should you go flying tired? No.
Step 2 - Call in tired. Hang up the phone. Go and get some rest.
Step 3 - The boss calls and says you're fired. (his loss, not yours)
Step 4 - Thank him/her for the wonderful opportunity to build some flying time and experience then wish him/her good luck in court.
Step 5 - Contact a reasonable Labour Lawyer and sue the bastard for Wrongful Dismissal.
Step 6 - Open a cold one and checkout the CBC drivel on Pilot Fatigue.

Not accepting a flight when I am medically unfit is MY responsibility. Being tired or over tired is medically unfit. That sounds pretty simple to me. It's not about what's legal under TC regulation. It's about ME accepting responsibility when I know I shouldn't fly.

Neither side should try to hide behind regulation. It rarely works.

(like North Shore says in his signature: Ass, Licence, Job. In that order)

[Janszoon]

Janszoon, I think that you are missing the point. Sure Gagne knowingly busted the rules (and, FWIW, changing the rules isn't going to fix anything - if people broke them before, then they will do so in the future) And while nobody put a gun to his head, the threat of eviction/loss of credit rating/harassing creditors etc, because of low pay is a pretty strong motivator to work two jobs, and thereby break the rules..

Very valid point. In many cases, this industry does not provide a workplace where an employee feels secure, or has adequate finances and the means to provide for a family, and that's a problem that needs to be addressed most definitely.

[Widow]

How many pilots do you know who have had a successful outcome for a wrongful dismissal suit? Without committing career suicide or ending up financially/emotionally bankrupt?

[Gino Under]

I think that's the point.
Not many have had the b-alls to try a wrongful dismissal lawsuit out of fear of losing their job. So what does that tell us? Not much.
Why should you fear losing a $24,000 a year job? There is only one way to find out and one way to see who's to blame. Isn't it easier to complain over the backyard fence than confront the issue in a legitimate forum??? If exercising what is required of you under regulation is career suicide, then costing you a $20-45K job, isn't much of a loss.

So, you're right in a way. Not many have.
Last year, one did. Albeit for another reason but it was still a wrongful dismissal. He won 3 million and now doesn't have to worry about flying for peanuts or figuring out how to climb that career ladder.

I know what I've done in the past. So shame on me.
I also know how to deal with it in the future (and on alot more than $45K)

[.......]

Epic post Eric.

In the future you may want to check for spelling and grammar before you put your name on it or expect a reply.

I don't see you even trying to post in the french forum... give the guy a break!

[Mr. North]

Janszoon, my thoughts exactly!!

With all due respect, propping up Mr. Gangé and using his example will lead people to believe that this is merely an enforcement issue.

We all know that it isn't!




Oh and SkyLounger, how was I supposed to know he's French and not just another drunk AvCanada blow hard? Give ME a break!

[BTD]

Flying tired is nothing new to flying.
Whining over strong, weak or just plain stupid regulation is and has always been a total waste of time. They haven't gotten it right yet and you'll likely be old and retired by the time regulation even approaches sensibility.

Self regulate, I say. Simply because it works.

Step 1 - Are you tired? Yes.
Should you go flying tired? No.
Step 2 - Call in tired. Hang up the phone. Go and get some rest.
Step 3 - The boss calls and says you're fired. (his loss, not yours)
Step 4 - Thank him/her for the wonderful opportunity to build some flying time and experience then wish him/her good luck in court.
Step 5 - Contact a reasonable Labour Lawyer and sue the bastard for Wrongful Dismissal.
Step 6 - Open a cold one and checkout the CBC drivel on Pilot Fatigue.

Not accepting a flight when I am medically unfit is MY responsibility. Being tired or over tired is medically unfit. That sounds pretty simple to me. It's not about what's legal under TC regulation. It's about ME accepting responsibility when I know I shouldn't fly.

Neither side should try to hide behind regulation. It rarely works.

(like North Shore says in his signature: Ass, Licence, Job. In that order)

While I agree that you should not fly if you consider yourself unfit (tired), I don't think that means regulation has no place. As it stands right now, companies can stay within the law and schedule you to be perpetually tired. Min rest to Min Rest to Min Rest, flying on the backside of the clock.

Why even allow it, if there is a way to improve.

Its similar to a bad curve on a road with no barrier. You could always take another route, to prevent going over the edge. But why not put up a barrier to allow yourself to take this route and prevent others that are going to take it anyway from going over. (I suppose this is a little bit of a lowest common denominator arguement )

There is also the protection that some regulation affords the public.

IE: Company can schedule pilot to minimum rest repeatedly, and work many legs for X days in a row. This pilot doesn't have the balls to stand up and say I'm tired. Passengers board airplane, pilot crashes due to fatigue, everyone dies. Now your innocent passengers are dead through no fault of their own, and the company moves on with its scheduling practices.

Prevent the company from being able to do this in the first place, you minimize the risk, and this accident likely doesn't happen.

This is something the industry is crying for (pilot group). I doubt most would consider a new regulation in this area to be over regulation, unlike other issues.

If the system is less than ideal, then fix the system. Don't just ignore it and operate around it.

BTD

*spelling

[Zatopec]

How many pilots do you know who have had a successful outcome for a wrongful dismissal suit? Without committing career suicide or ending up financially/emotionally bankrupt?

I think that's the point.
Not many have had the b-alls to try a wrongful dismissal lawsuit out of fear of losing their job. So what does that tell us? Not much.
Why should you fear losing a $24,000 a year job? There is only one way to find out and one way to see who's to blame. Isn't it easier to complain over the backyard fence than confront the issue in a legitimate forum??? If exercising what is required of you under regulation is career suicide, then costing you a $20-45K job, isn't much of a loss.

So, you're right in a way. Not many have.

I have. But I know of no other.

Self regulate, I say. Simply because it works.

Step 1 - Are you tired? Yes.
Should you go flying tired? No.
Step 2 - Call in tired. Hang up the phone. Go and get some rest.
Step 3 - The boss calls and says you're fired. (his loss, not yours)
Step 4 - Thank him/her for the wonderful opportunity to build some flying time and experience then wish him/her good luck in court.
Step 5 - Contact a reasonable Labour Lawyer and sue the bastard for Wrongful Dismissal.
Step 6 - Open a cold one and checkout the CBC drivel on Pilot Fatigue.

Precisely in that order, you could not have said it better. Step 6 came in seven years later.

To this day I would still make that decision. Did it prove to be career suicide? No. I eventually ended up finding a job with an excellent airline. Has it been financially/emotionaly hard? Very! Long story short, in 2004 I decided I had had enough of dealing with all the crap that comes with moving up the ladder to get that elusive dream airline job. I had nothing but debts and wasn't ready to put that strain on my family anymore and decided it was time to move on. I now work on the other side of the frequency and it's all so much better!

So yes, that event pushed me out. But I was not forced out. I myself decided to get out, for good.

By the way, I won my case at the labour board.

As for the two guys who fired me, I saw just a couple weeks ago that after ending up in senior management positions, they managed the compnany so badly that it went bankrupt. Too bad.

[xsbank]

Some excellent comments here - so what exactly is the problem? "Pilot fatigue" is just the obvious manifestation of a simpler issue, the fact that most 'low time' pilots work for virtually nothing. If you are underpaid, have massive debts from school, feel pressed to take an extra job so you can eat or help support your debt, the pressures are enormous to ignore the rules in a system that pays you by the hour or by the mile. If we tossed out the federal component and regulated the whole aviation industry based on provincial guidelines, the financial impact on these cheesy operators would lead the change. If a pilot were expected to work an 8 hour shift, then go home or to a hotel, there would be employment for more pilots, they would be paid 'more' fairly and fatigue would amount to that experienced by a 'normal' worker. The least you could earn would be minimum wage. Long flights? Better use another crew like many companies already do over longer legs, or you pay your crews overtime. Don't want days off because you are living in Bugcity, NWO? Then you get overtime for day 6 and day 7 but you get (I have to say this) a 'double double' for every hour over 8. You would need 2 days rest to reset the clock until you get back to 'normal' pay.

I don't think regulations will do anything to make change, especially as there aren't enough inspectors and TC still seems unwilling to regulate. The owner's pocketbook will be the only instrument of change.

"A union in every pot."