Saying No
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GoinNowhereFast
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Saying No
So you've been working the ramp at ABC Aviation for the past year and you finally moved right seat on the King Air 100. Your loading up the airplane and doing the weight and balance when you notice your going to be 500lbs over MTOW. You mention it to the Captain and he says "don't worry about it, just say there's 200lbs of bags instead of 700lbs". What do you do?
Sarcasm is the body's natural defense against stupidity
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Cat Driver
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Re: Saying No
Just say no and go home.
Do not say anything to TC or anyone else as it may only make things worse for you.
Do not say anything to TC or anyone else as it may only make things worse for you.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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GoinNowhereFast
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Re: Saying No
Somebody is going to want answers as to why you left. When the CP calls to ask why you walked away, what do you say then?
Sarcasm is the body's natural defense against stupidity
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Cat Driver
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Re: Saying No
Good question.
When you refuse to fly you will be asked why, the simple answer is tell the CP the truth.
The CP will then decide what he/she will do.
It is very rare for a F.O. to win in a case such as that, generally the F.O. is the loser.
You by now should have a good grasp how the company works with regard to over loads if you have worked there that long.
If it is common for pilots to carry overloads you are not likely to win in refusing to falsify the Log book.
Let me know how it goes if you decide to start your career with the correct attitude and tell them to stuff their King Air where the sun don't shine.
When you refuse to fly you will be asked why, the simple answer is tell the CP the truth.
The CP will then decide what he/she will do.
It is very rare for a F.O. to win in a case such as that, generally the F.O. is the loser.
You by now should have a good grasp how the company works with regard to over loads if you have worked there that long.
If it is common for pilots to carry overloads you are not likely to win in refusing to falsify the Log book.
Let me know how it goes if you decide to start your career with the correct attitude and tell them to stuff their King Air where the sun don't shine.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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crazy_aviator
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Re: Saying No
Perhaps Kirsten should weigh-in on this one ,,,,,Your damned if you do and damned if you dont ,, for 2 reasons ,,,1 , many small operators go a little or a lot overweight,,,its an unwritten law 2 , You WONT find the proper support with government etc if you say NO ! ( Look at the recent Cascade thread )
My resume reads like a road map,,,testament to the fact ive said NO ( mostly as an AME)
My resume reads like a road map,,,testament to the fact ive said NO ( mostly as an AME)
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freakonature
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Re: Saying No
Would this not be a situation that you would look to the College of Pilots for some help?
ie; Professional conduct?
ie; Professional conduct?
Re: Saying No
Definitely a tough situation for an F/O. Remember if you were to be in an accident and someone dies, you will be held criminally responsible knowing you were out of W/B and could end up doing a lot of jail time. Not really worth it.
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mattedfred
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Re: Saying No
only you can decide whether you are willing to knowingly operate an aircraft in contradiction to it's AFM. only you can decide whether you are willing to operate this aircraft illegally and unsafely according to the AFM.
the question you need to ask yourself is...is it worth it?
the question you need to ask yourself is...is it worth it?
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GoinNowhereFast
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Re: Saying No
I don't think it is ever worth blatent disregard of safety. This sort of situation hasn't happened to me, but I have seen it happens to others. I am looking for advice on what to do if it ever should.mattedfred wrote:only you can decide whether you are willing to knowingly operate an aircraft in contradiction to it's AFM. only you can decide whether you are willing to operate this aircraft illegally and unsafely according to the AFM.
the question you need to ask yourself is...is it worth it?
Here's another senario.
Your in the right seat of the King Air [appropriately loaded this time]. Your flying through some bad weather on the NDB A [GNSS] approach, the MDA is 1000' and the latest report is overcast 700' [lets say aerodrome elevation is 300']. The captain is flying the approach, and when you see him at 950', you remind him of the MDA. In response he says "I've been here a thousand times on clear days there's nothing to hit down there, I'm comfortable at 600'". What do you do?
Sarcasm is the body's natural defense against stupidity
Re: Saying No
The long and short of it is How does one explain why they left a job due to corner cutting when most companies do it?
Re: Saying No
Quote: “Pilots Stay Safe: Know Your Rights”
What rights? Who is backing them? Below is the third paragraph of the first post on this thread: viewtopic.php?f=54&t=63140
"Other posters have often said that the Captain is responsible and must always refuse to engage in doubtful practices. This is fine in theory but it does not work in the real world. Remember the old saying: "He who pays the piper calls the tune." A pilot has to dance to the employer's tune or lose his job/income. EI does not make up for this and I suspect few of those posters who are so vocal about the PIC being responsible are prepared to financially help a pilot who has been fired because he would not engage in unsafe practices. In many cases there is only one aviation employer in town so if a pilot loses his job it is a serious blow. He has the cost of trying to find work in another town or province, then the cost of moving there, lease break costs or real estate sales costs, plus the cost of a spouse giving up a job and hoping to find another in the new town. Meanwhile landlords, banks, municipalities and supermarkets still want money for rent, food, utilities, vehicle costs, loan repayments, etc. A pilot is a long way down the company totem pole and is in a position of financial weakness so it's rather stupid to say that the full responsibility stops with a lowly employee. Those who always say that the PIC is responsible and should refuse to fly are out of touch with reality. They are presumably independently wealthy and can afford not to work. It's easy for such wealthy people to be able to refuse to work but they should show some sort of consideration and compassion for those who are less well off and who have to work to survive."
Add to the above the blacklist threat. Aviation is a small world and those shady operators who have had a pilot "stand up for his rights" and lawful responsibilities pass the word along to ensure that such ethical pilots will have a hard time finding further employment in this unscrupulous industry. Radical change in the legal and practical responsibilities is needed, which is what this thread is about: viewtopic.php?f=54&t=63140
What rights? Who is backing them? Below is the third paragraph of the first post on this thread: viewtopic.php?f=54&t=63140
"Other posters have often said that the Captain is responsible and must always refuse to engage in doubtful practices. This is fine in theory but it does not work in the real world. Remember the old saying: "He who pays the piper calls the tune." A pilot has to dance to the employer's tune or lose his job/income. EI does not make up for this and I suspect few of those posters who are so vocal about the PIC being responsible are prepared to financially help a pilot who has been fired because he would not engage in unsafe practices. In many cases there is only one aviation employer in town so if a pilot loses his job it is a serious blow. He has the cost of trying to find work in another town or province, then the cost of moving there, lease break costs or real estate sales costs, plus the cost of a spouse giving up a job and hoping to find another in the new town. Meanwhile landlords, banks, municipalities and supermarkets still want money for rent, food, utilities, vehicle costs, loan repayments, etc. A pilot is a long way down the company totem pole and is in a position of financial weakness so it's rather stupid to say that the full responsibility stops with a lowly employee. Those who always say that the PIC is responsible and should refuse to fly are out of touch with reality. They are presumably independently wealthy and can afford not to work. It's easy for such wealthy people to be able to refuse to work but they should show some sort of consideration and compassion for those who are less well off and who have to work to survive."
Add to the above the blacklist threat. Aviation is a small world and those shady operators who have had a pilot "stand up for his rights" and lawful responsibilities pass the word along to ensure that such ethical pilots will have a hard time finding further employment in this unscrupulous industry. Radical change in the legal and practical responsibilities is needed, which is what this thread is about: viewtopic.php?f=54&t=63140
Last edited by Carrier on Fri Mar 19, 2010 4:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Re: Saying No
The rights are there, but the "gods" don't care.Carrier wrote:What rights? Who is backing them?
Former Advocate for Floatplane Safety
Re: Saying No
I sure hope that MOST companies aren't operating 500 lbs over gross (in an 11500 lb airplane...) Not to mention in the scenario given, how many of your passengers were actually Standard weight individuals?Tanker299 wrote:The long and short of it is How does one explain why they left a job due to corner cutting when most companies do it?
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GoinNowhereFast
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Re: Saying No
How would you say no in this situation? It's not as easy as just saying no and going home.GoinNowhereFast wrote: Your in the right seat of the King Air [appropriately loaded this time]. Your flying through some bad weather on the NDB A [GNSS] approach, the MDA is 1000' and the latest report is overcast 700' [lets say aerodrome elevation is 300']. The captain is flying the approach, and when you see him at 950', you remind him of the MDA. In response he says "I've been here a thousand times on clear days there's nothing to hit down there, I'm comfortable at 600'". What do you do?
Sarcasm is the body's natural defense against stupidity
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Cat Driver
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Re: Saying No
There are only two choices when it comes to flying in contravention of the rules, you either have a policy of always following the rules or you have a policy of not following them.
Most pilots get away with breaking the rules such as over loading, going below published minimums, flying airplanes with poor maintenance etc.
But when you do that one flight where something really goes wrong and there is either an accident or a violation and conviction the price you may pay may really ruin your career.
If this poster is facing the decision he has outlined and there is a systemic breaking of the rules by a pilot or pilots in that company now is the time to decide what type of pilot he will become, sure it will hurt if he loses his job and the frustration of having worked a year on the ramp only to lose his chance at flying will be difficult.
But in the long run it will be the best decision.
What makes me sick with disgust is there is really no one for him to go to for help.
Oh, another thought, if said company wants him to falsify the log book you can bet other F.O.'s are in the same boat wouldn't it be nice to see a trial in a real court where these people can be called to answer questions about these issues under oath?
Most pilots get away with breaking the rules such as over loading, going below published minimums, flying airplanes with poor maintenance etc.
But when you do that one flight where something really goes wrong and there is either an accident or a violation and conviction the price you may pay may really ruin your career.
If this poster is facing the decision he has outlined and there is a systemic breaking of the rules by a pilot or pilots in that company now is the time to decide what type of pilot he will become, sure it will hurt if he loses his job and the frustration of having worked a year on the ramp only to lose his chance at flying will be difficult.
But in the long run it will be the best decision.
What makes me sick with disgust is there is really no one for him to go to for help.
Oh, another thought, if said company wants him to falsify the log book you can bet other F.O.'s are in the same boat wouldn't it be nice to see a trial in a real court where these people can be called to answer questions about these issues under oath?
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Re: Saying No
Remember, there is always a safe way to complete the flight.
It might require offloading fuel or leaving some crap behind... or refusing to fly.
It might require offloading fuel or leaving some crap behind... or refusing to fly.
Get on the radio "Crash-Air 101 in the missed." It will look bad if the dude lands nowGoinNowhereFast wrote:Your in the right seat of the King Air [appropriately loaded this time]. Your flying through some bad weather on the NDB A [GNSS] approach, the MDA is 1000' and the latest report is overcast 700' [lets say aerodrome elevation is 300']. The captain is flying the approach, and when you see him at 950', you remind him of the MDA. In response he says "I've been here a thousand times on clear days there's nothing to hit down there, I'm comfortable at 600'". What do you do?
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angry inch
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Re: Saying No
703 airplanes fly overweight all the time. Any operator who uses standard weights & loads the airplane to gross is very often flying outside the "legal envelope"... Not to mention fuel....
Goingnowherefast.... Good Luck with your decision making!
Goingnowherefast.... Good Luck with your decision making!
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Cat Driver
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Re: Saying No
Yes using standard weights in some cases can result in being over the legal gross weight.
But you are still over legal gross weight and still in contravention of the rules.
If there is an accident you will be held responsible if they can prove you were over gross.
But you are still over legal gross weight and still in contravention of the rules.
If there is an accident you will be held responsible if they can prove you were over gross.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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angry inch
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Re: Saying No
I've always been very particular about weight and have tried to be as precise as possible in my calculations whenever possible. When hauling fishermen who each had a flat or more of beer, in addition to all their gear, this caused me the most problems. The passengers gave me a hard time, the lodge owner gave me a hard time, but ultimately I refused to fly overweight. I was regularly told something to the effect that "last year we just filled her up to the rafters and went!" I refused to be so careless, however. Often this meant leaving several flats of beer, or even a passenger behind to bring up on another less packed flight. Thankfully the ops man always backed me up so I never had to worry about any retribution from my own bosses.
Re: Saying No
Just remember, saying no gets easier the more you do it. The trick now is to make sure you live long enough for it to get easy.
Re: Saying No
hmm...
Been there done that.
If you do walk expect to have your name trashed .. ROYALLY. The aviation rumor mill will twist the story around 180 degrees... and you will come out looking like the bad apple.
Expect ZERO backing from your peers, other CP's etc. The first question when you phone up a new company will be " why did you leave X,Y,Z" They will not like your answer...
I am not condoning the way it is... just telling you the sad truth.
Been there done that.
If you do walk expect to have your name trashed .. ROYALLY. The aviation rumor mill will twist the story around 180 degrees... and you will come out looking like the bad apple.
Expect ZERO backing from your peers, other CP's etc. The first question when you phone up a new company will be " why did you leave X,Y,Z" They will not like your answer...
I am not condoning the way it is... just telling you the sad truth.
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angry inch
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Re: Saying No
Oh Dear!
I hope that's not true... Otherwise I might as well finish filling out my application to the "College of Library Sciences"...
I hope that's not true... Otherwise I might as well finish filling out my application to the "College of Library Sciences"...
