Edmonton City Centre Airport
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Re: Edmonton City Centre Airport
What I find disheartening is that on an aviation website there would be proponents for reducing the aviation infrastructure in such a dramatic way as closing a medium sized airport.
Certainly life will go on should CYXD be closed. It always does. You lose a leg, life will go on - but is it something you would choose? The claim that other cities deal with a distant airport isn't logical as they didn't choose to close one down in favor of the other.
But that's not even the point - it shouldn't be a case of having to choose one over the other. With proper management the two airport scenario in Edmonton would be hugely complimentary. CYXD serves a very different purpose and business profile than CYEG and if both were promoted to their strengths the whole region would benefit.
Unfortunately we have a situation at the moment where the two groups that have direct control are single-mindedly focused on closing CYXD. One group that doesn't want to be bothered dealing with it on an operational basis and one group that has delusions of grandeur and/or other benefits to having it closed.
So when the two groups conspire to reverse a decision to keep City Centre open (that was twice supported by the population) it's highly laudable that enough people had the energy to follow through on the last recourse in our democracy - a petition to force a plebiscite.
Good for Envision Edmonton and good for Edmonton.
Certainly life will go on should CYXD be closed. It always does. You lose a leg, life will go on - but is it something you would choose? The claim that other cities deal with a distant airport isn't logical as they didn't choose to close one down in favor of the other.
But that's not even the point - it shouldn't be a case of having to choose one over the other. With proper management the two airport scenario in Edmonton would be hugely complimentary. CYXD serves a very different purpose and business profile than CYEG and if both were promoted to their strengths the whole region would benefit.
Unfortunately we have a situation at the moment where the two groups that have direct control are single-mindedly focused on closing CYXD. One group that doesn't want to be bothered dealing with it on an operational basis and one group that has delusions of grandeur and/or other benefits to having it closed.
So when the two groups conspire to reverse a decision to keep City Centre open (that was twice supported by the population) it's highly laudable that enough people had the energy to follow through on the last recourse in our democracy - a petition to force a plebiscite.
Good for Envision Edmonton and good for Edmonton.
Being stupid around airplanes is a capital offence and nature is a hanging judge!
“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.”
Mark Twain
“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.”
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Re: Edmonton City Centre Airport
http://m.edmontonsun.com/News/Edmonton/15106751.1
looks like we'll all have a say this fall.A group behind a petition to force a plebiscite on the fate of the City Centre Airport in the fall civic election says it now has enough signatures after a weekend-long blitz.
But Envision Edmonton, which needed at least 78,000 signatures before this Friday, says it's now aiming for 90,000 to offset any errors the massive petition may have before this week's deadline.
Panama Jack wrote:I'm afraid I will have to agree with aviator2010
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Today's Globe and Mail Editorial
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/opi ... le1686677/
Note that the commentary is strongly pro closure -- Mandel's buddies are onto this one.
Proponents of ECCA are advised to submit their comments and letters to the editor.
We are seeing the usual contest between the property industry, always well represented on municipal councils, and airports where there's lots of land for developers to make money on. As a pilot, I have found that International airports are hostile environments for everything but airlines, especially post 9/11.
Something less grandiose is needed for the smaller operators who make a valuable contribution to the local economy in many ways. That local regional airport also needs to be far enough away from the International airport that air traffic is not forced to thread its way through narrow corridors dictated by airspace restrictions around the International airport.
Restricting scheduled passenger service to ECCA has made it quicker to drive to/from Calgary for business meetings. Yes, companies and individuals with their own planes can still use ECCA. But if ECCA is completely closed, businesses in Calgary will be rethinking the viability of maintaining an office in Edmonton.
Businesses contemplating locating in Alberta will be more inclined to choose Calgary over Edmonton, even if their customer base is located North of Edmonton. In fact, that is exactly what has been happening.
Note that the commentary is strongly pro closure -- Mandel's buddies are onto this one.
Proponents of ECCA are advised to submit their comments and letters to the editor.
We are seeing the usual contest between the property industry, always well represented on municipal councils, and airports where there's lots of land for developers to make money on. As a pilot, I have found that International airports are hostile environments for everything but airlines, especially post 9/11.
Something less grandiose is needed for the smaller operators who make a valuable contribution to the local economy in many ways. That local regional airport also needs to be far enough away from the International airport that air traffic is not forced to thread its way through narrow corridors dictated by airspace restrictions around the International airport.
Restricting scheduled passenger service to ECCA has made it quicker to drive to/from Calgary for business meetings. Yes, companies and individuals with their own planes can still use ECCA. But if ECCA is completely closed, businesses in Calgary will be rethinking the viability of maintaining an office in Edmonton.
Businesses contemplating locating in Alberta will be more inclined to choose Calgary over Edmonton, even if their customer base is located North of Edmonton. In fact, that is exactly what has been happening.
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Re: Edmonton City Centre Airport
I have to disagree with the previous post when the discussion turns to business relocating to Calgary and not maintaining an Edmonton office. There is a solution to every problem if you think long and hard about it. This is what is happening now. Executive Express www.executiveexpresscanada.ca has come up with a solution for the business community. Essentially if you cannot get there faster, make the time spent getting there more productive.
I have many fond memories of CYXD but they are just that, memories. If closure does not happen this time, it will be debated again and with yet more restricted service. XD will never regain the glory it once had and perhaps like a horse with a broken leg it is time to put it out of its misery.
I have many fond memories of CYXD but they are just that, memories. If closure does not happen this time, it will be debated again and with yet more restricted service. XD will never regain the glory it once had and perhaps like a horse with a broken leg it is time to put it out of its misery.
Re: Edmonton City Centre Airport
No, not good for EE, or more importantly, Edmonton. Reversing a decision rendered by a democratically-elected political body by self-serving folks with deep pockets and Falcon 900's is not commendable, nor laudable. Though I was not initially in favour of closing the airport, aspirations held by certain individuals in positions of authority have accelerated the need to do away with the issue altogether. Essentially, it was to return scheduled services to XD with larger (>10 seats) airplanes and thus (the way I see it), the unsustainable return of splitting fare-paying pax between 2 airports, and reigniting the debate for many more generations to come. I think people are tired of paying for all the votes, referendums, plebiscites, petitions, blah blah blah that have taken place over the last few decades with little in the way of really, finally settling the debate. Why not just close 16/34, and keep 12/30 open to G.A. a/c only? Medevac services will relocate to YEG with not the slightest hiccup to those specialized services. Everything else can make do with current infrastructure at XD. Airco, join all others at YEG flying North (and enjoy the option of flying South) and play on the same field as them, perhaps you can actually compete (pardon me for harbouring a little bit of skepticism). Don't worry, Westjet isn't gonna start flying to Athabasca or Redwater anytime soon . And for Calgary-based execs who like the convenience of traveling "downtown to downtown", YYC isn't exactly situated in downtown Calgary. If you wanna do so by air, then you can fuggedabahdit! I do like that Executive Express model....5x5 wrote: So when the two groups conspire to reverse a decision to keep City Centre open (that was twice supported by the population) it's highly laudable that enough people had the energy to follow through on the last recourse in our democracy - a petition to force a plebiscite.
Good for Envision Edmonton and good for Edmonton.
Turn right/left heading XXX, vectors for the hell of it.
Re: Edmonton City Centre Airport
The first time they voted on the fate of the muni the city admitted it was generating $5000,000 a year revenue for the city. After selling it for a dollar to the airport authority, who quickly made rules that gutted any money making flights, they turned around and said it is not making any money. Everyone behind the closure is involved in realestate.
Mandel had a hissy fit when Stelmack made it a law that municipal politicians have to disclose their campain funding. Gee I wonder why? This is Mandel's last shot. The muni is the the big payoff.
Mandel had a hissy fit when Stelmack made it a law that municipal politicians have to disclose their campain funding. Gee I wonder why? This is Mandel's last shot. The muni is the the big payoff.
Re: Edmonton City Centre Airport
So far there has been no reversal of the City Council decision. The petition that has been submitted supports a plebiscite on that decision. The question will be included on the ballot this October.
Anyone who uses the term democratic when referring to Council's decision needs to think a little more fully. That decision did in fact reverse two previous decisions made by the Edmonton voting public, in 1992 and 1995, to keep CCA open.
Obviously, a city council, a provincial or a federal government is elected to make decisions on behalf of its constituents. And they are held accountable at regular election intervals. However, there is also the right for people to challenge any particular decision between the elections that they feel is counter to public desire. This right to challenge is not easily enacted as in Alberta under the Municipality act you must collect signatures totaling 10% of the entire jurisdiction's population - in Edmonton roughly 78,000. Those 78,000 can only be eligible voters however. So in actuality you need to collect close to 20% of all voters. And it all has to be done in 60 days. Not exactly an easy task and certainly not accomplished by a few rich people with their own Falcon 900s. It was done by a fantastic group of dedicated volunteers and supported by an extremely large group of Edmonton voters.
So council's decision was certainly within their democratic rights. It was also within the democratic rights of Envision Edmonton to challenge that specific decision.
So I stand by my opinion - good for Envision Edmonton and good for Edmonton.
Anyone who uses the term democratic when referring to Council's decision needs to think a little more fully. That decision did in fact reverse two previous decisions made by the Edmonton voting public, in 1992 and 1995, to keep CCA open.
Obviously, a city council, a provincial or a federal government is elected to make decisions on behalf of its constituents. And they are held accountable at regular election intervals. However, there is also the right for people to challenge any particular decision between the elections that they feel is counter to public desire. This right to challenge is not easily enacted as in Alberta under the Municipality act you must collect signatures totaling 10% of the entire jurisdiction's population - in Edmonton roughly 78,000. Those 78,000 can only be eligible voters however. So in actuality you need to collect close to 20% of all voters. And it all has to be done in 60 days. Not exactly an easy task and certainly not accomplished by a few rich people with their own Falcon 900s. It was done by a fantastic group of dedicated volunteers and supported by an extremely large group of Edmonton voters.
So council's decision was certainly within their democratic rights. It was also within the democratic rights of Envision Edmonton to challenge that specific decision.
So I stand by my opinion - good for Envision Edmonton and good for Edmonton.
Being stupid around airplanes is a capital offence and nature is a hanging judge!
“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.”
Mark Twain
“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.”
Mark Twain
- oldncold
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Re: Edmonton City Centre Airport
Open letter to the city council of Edmonton Alberta/ for those in the know please forward!!
I learned to fly commercial at cyxd in 1973 the Pacific western Airlines 737 took me and our family north to norman wells to visit my dad who was on a extented rotation for okanagan helicopters.
In 1989 I got my commercial license from a flying school there /that school employed 7 instructors several mgt staff and all the ancillary support /fuel maintenance etc. In spring of 1994 the city of edmonton city center airport had 1,000,000 passengers go through the facility in the previous year. I took one of the last 737 flights out of there to my new job as a rookie pilot. I now have 11000 hrs and a wonderful life that started there
so what have you really done:
1/driven literally all economic aviation development to leduc/ nisku and residents who's income rely on the airport to devon etc. lost the tax base of well paid jobs and had to jack up the mil rate to cover the loss to those who's incomes may not be as affluent.
2/ discourged any long term investment > contrary to over 20yrs of pleading to companies to set up shop n the city (proper)of edmonton.
3/ blamed every other special interests group for your monumental screwup
4/ instead of a viable strong kingsway /district neighbourhood with well paying jopb of pilots engineers etc you have low paying service jobs and a neighbourhood overrun with gangs / drug runners way to go good long term planning! you now want to close the airport and drive all thats left of the higher skill jobs out of the innercore of the city to sell condo 's and more burger king (no disrespect to the company) they do not pay 50-80 +k yr on average the wages
There is an opportunity for those to see the errors of their ways and/past set the city on a path to growth
the solution is So Simple anything under 50,000 lbs max take-off weight is allowed to conduct regulary scheduled flights into the city center airport 7days a week between 7:00am and 10:30 pm those over 50,000lbs max take- off weight must use another facillity. the hotels the restaurants taxis the support services will boom again and the beleaguered tax payer will have a ray of hope that his/her mill rate is not go through the roof.
i remind all city councilors your job is to make sure the sustainability and both within your electoral mandate and beyond and replacing 50-80k jobs with 25-30k jobs does not cut the mustard.
if any one is out there please also forward to the edmonton journal
I learned to fly commercial at cyxd in 1973 the Pacific western Airlines 737 took me and our family north to norman wells to visit my dad who was on a extented rotation for okanagan helicopters.
In 1989 I got my commercial license from a flying school there /that school employed 7 instructors several mgt staff and all the ancillary support /fuel maintenance etc. In spring of 1994 the city of edmonton city center airport had 1,000,000 passengers go through the facility in the previous year. I took one of the last 737 flights out of there to my new job as a rookie pilot. I now have 11000 hrs and a wonderful life that started there
so what have you really done:
1/driven literally all economic aviation development to leduc/ nisku and residents who's income rely on the airport to devon etc. lost the tax base of well paid jobs and had to jack up the mil rate to cover the loss to those who's incomes may not be as affluent.
2/ discourged any long term investment > contrary to over 20yrs of pleading to companies to set up shop n the city (proper)of edmonton.
3/ blamed every other special interests group for your monumental screwup
4/ instead of a viable strong kingsway /district neighbourhood with well paying jopb of pilots engineers etc you have low paying service jobs and a neighbourhood overrun with gangs / drug runners way to go good long term planning! you now want to close the airport and drive all thats left of the higher skill jobs out of the innercore of the city to sell condo 's and more burger king (no disrespect to the company) they do not pay 50-80 +k yr on average the wages
There is an opportunity for those to see the errors of their ways and/past set the city on a path to growth
the solution is So Simple anything under 50,000 lbs max take-off weight is allowed to conduct regulary scheduled flights into the city center airport 7days a week between 7:00am and 10:30 pm those over 50,000lbs max take- off weight must use another facillity. the hotels the restaurants taxis the support services will boom again and the beleaguered tax payer will have a ray of hope that his/her mill rate is not go through the roof.
i remind all city councilors your job is to make sure the sustainability and both within your electoral mandate and beyond and replacing 50-80k jobs with 25-30k jobs does not cut the mustard.
if any one is out there please also forward to the edmonton journal
Re: Edmonton City Centre Airport
oldncold wrote:Open letter to the city council of Edmonton Alberta/ for those in the know please forward!!
I learned to fly commercial at cyxd in 1973 the Pacific western Airlines 737 took me and our family north to norman wells to visit my dad who was on a extented rotation for okanagan helicopters.
In 1989 I got my commercial license from a flying school there /that school employed 7 instructors several mgt staff and all the ancillary support /fuel maintenance etc. In spring of 1994 the city of edmonton city center airport had 1,000,000 passengers go through the facility in the previous year. I took one of the last 737 flights out of there to my new job as a rookie pilot. I now have 11000 hrs and a wonderful life that started there
so what have you really done:
1/driven literally all economic aviation development to leduc/ nisku and residents who's income rely on the airport to devon etc. lost the tax base of well paid jobs and had to jack up the mil rate to cover the loss to those who's incomes may not be as affluent.
2/ discourged any long term investment > contrary to over 20yrs of pleading to companies to set up shop n the city (proper)of edmonton.
3/ blamed every other special interests group for your monumental screwup
4/ instead of a viable strong kingsway /district neighbourhood with well paying jopb of pilots engineers etc you have low paying service jobs and a neighbourhood overrun with gangs / drug runners way to go good long term planning! you now want to close the airport and drive all thats left of the higher skill jobs out of the innercore of the city to sell condo 's and more burger king (no disrespect to the company) they do not pay 50-80 +k yr on average the wages
There is an opportunity for those to see the errors of their ways and/past set the city on a path to growth
the solution is So Simple anything under 50,000 lbs max take-off weight is allowed to conduct regulary scheduled flights into the city center airport 7days a week between 7:00am and 10:30 pm those over 50,000lbs max take- off weight must use another facillity. the hotels the restaurants taxis the support services will boom again and the beleaguered tax payer will have a ray of hope that his/her mill rate is not go through the roof.
i remind all city councilors your job is to make sure the sustainability and both within your electoral mandate and beyond and replacing 50-80k jobs with 25-30k jobs does not cut the mustard.
if any one is out there please also forward to the edmonton journal
Re: Edmonton City Centre Airport
Too many inaccuracies, too many bleeding heart, legacy-style aspirations and contentious issues to speak of. You're right 5 X 5, I was incorrect in stating that a decision had been overturned, but if you don't believe that that's the general intent of this bunch, then I've got oceanfront property I'd like to sell you. Fact is, City Centre is not the airport it once was, and it got that way through many poor and tortured decisions taken over time, likely with the intent of closing it down much sooner than has transpired. The problem is, this isn't something that could be reversed quickly, nor would it be to the greater benefit of greater Edmonton to do so in the year 2010 and beyond. Just because something was once great doesn't mean that it could or should return to that former glory. I started to type a very long post for this particular issue, but when it got to 10 loooong paragraphs, I decided 2 things: I'm very long-winded and most readers would've fallen asleep before getting to the end , and secondly, no matter how well written a post may be, you could never change a person's position on such a contentious issue when their personal feelings are so well entrenched. It's unfortunate that Blatchford's legacy will be a bad one rather than the one it should've had. Just can't please everyone...
Turn right/left heading XXX, vectors for the hell of it.
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Re: Edmonton City Centre Airport
so what if I want to fly from grand prarie to London heathrow?the solution is So Simple anything under 50,000 lbs max take-off weight is allowed to conduct regulary scheduled flights into the city center airport 7days a week between 7:00am and 10:30 pm those over 50,000lbs max take- off weight must use another facillity.
Panama Jack wrote:I'm afraid I will have to agree with aviator2010
Re: Edmonton City Centre Airport
Shouldn't be a problem now, Grand Prarie Tx has had flights going direct to London for years. Now if you were talking about Grande Prairie AB that's a differant problem, fly AC and you'd go Jazz direct to CYYC then direct to London from there. Easy you wouldnt even have to suffer a stop over in Edmonton.aviator2010 wrote:so what if I want to fly from grand prarie to London heathrow?the solution is So Simple anything under 50,000 lbs max take-off weight is allowed to conduct regulary scheduled flights into the city center airport 7days a week between 7:00am and 10:30 pm those over 50,000lbs max take- off weight must use another facillity.
Lurch
Take my love
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I don't care
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Take my land
Take me where I cannot stand
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Re: Edmonton City Centre Airport
and once again Edmonton helps CYYC grow while being cut out completly. Maybe Edmonton could start an airline CYXD dir CYYC and close the international. it's a sure winnerShouldn't be a problem now, Grand Prarie Tx has had flights going direct to London for years. Now if you were talking about Grande Prairie AB that's a differant problem, fly AC and you'd go Jazz direct to CYYC then direct to London from there. Easy you wouldnt even have to suffer a stop over in Edmonton.
Lurch
Panama Jack wrote:I'm afraid I will have to agree with aviator2010
Re: Edmonton City Centre Airport
That's the smartest thing you've posted on this thread to date, Once Edmonton stops trying to be like Calgary maybe they'll be able to move on.aviator2010 wrote:Maybe Edmonton could start an airline CYXD dir CYYC and close the international. it's a sure winner
Lurch
Take my love
Take my land
Take me where I cannot stand
I don't care
I'm still free
You cannot take the sky from me
Take my land
Take me where I cannot stand
I don't care
I'm still free
You cannot take the sky from me
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Re: Edmonton City Centre Airport
I'm curious to know what (if any) long term plans have been thought of given the soon to be surge of GA traffic at YEG.
Regardless of the YYC vs. YEG argument, YEG has seemingly increased it's commercial traffic dramatically over the last few years.
YEG wants to be so much like YYC yet when it comes to GA traffic - they're doing the opposite. For the last few years now, YYC has been funneling as much GA traffic as possible (including all flight schools) to either Springbank or High River to relieve commercial congestion at the International - and that's with 3 runways (eventually 4) - not 2!
I always like YEG simply for the fact if I was departing off 12 or 02 I'd be airborne within minutes of push from the gate. I'd start getting irritated if I was #6 for takeoff along with a bunch of other jet's, waiting for a line of guys from EFC or Centennial wanting to do some touch & go's and practice for their solo (no disrespect, just fact).
I hope someone (although, presumably not) is thinking even 5 years down the road here to how this will affect operations at YEG.
In the meantime, I will continue to support Envision Edmonton and hope Mandel's plot to shutter this viable economic engine meets ultimate failure!
Regardless of the YYC vs. YEG argument, YEG has seemingly increased it's commercial traffic dramatically over the last few years.
YEG wants to be so much like YYC yet when it comes to GA traffic - they're doing the opposite. For the last few years now, YYC has been funneling as much GA traffic as possible (including all flight schools) to either Springbank or High River to relieve commercial congestion at the International - and that's with 3 runways (eventually 4) - not 2!
I always like YEG simply for the fact if I was departing off 12 or 02 I'd be airborne within minutes of push from the gate. I'd start getting irritated if I was #6 for takeoff along with a bunch of other jet's, waiting for a line of guys from EFC or Centennial wanting to do some touch & go's and practice for their solo (no disrespect, just fact).
I hope someone (although, presumably not) is thinking even 5 years down the road here to how this will affect operations at YEG.
In the meantime, I will continue to support Envision Edmonton and hope Mandel's plot to shutter this viable economic engine meets ultimate failure!
Re: Edmonton City Centre Airport
Perhaps, but if push comes to shove, those 2 YEG runways can accomodate as much, and more, traffic than YYC's current shitty config allows... They've got plans for a parallel at YEG in the longer term (probably be commissioned b4 YYC's parallel ) if things get too busy (which they won't). Flight schools are best served at satellite airports, in any event.canuckjetsetter wrote: For the last few years now, YYC has been funneling as much GA traffic as possible (including all flight schools) to either Springbank or High River to relieve commercial congestion at the International - and that's with 3 runways (eventually 4) - not 2!
Turn right/left heading XXX, vectors for the hell of it.
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Re: Edmonton City Centre Airport
Did they close Villeneuve (ZVL)?canuckjetsetter wrote: waiting for a line of guys from EFC or Centennial wanting to do some touch & go's and practice for their solo (no disrespect, just fact).
I don't think so.
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Re: Edmonton City Centre Airport
Dosen't ZVL make more sense for flight schools anyway, closer to WPA means more value for each doller spent because the students won't have to add 15 min each way to get too and from the practice area.I always like YEG simply for the fact if I was departing off 12 or 02 I'd be airborne within minutes of push from the gate. I'd start getting irritated if I was #6 for takeoff along with a bunch of other jet's, waiting for a line of guys from EFC or Centennial wanting to do some touch & go's and practice for their solo (no disrespect, just fact).
Panama Jack wrote:I'm afraid I will have to agree with aviator2010
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Re: Edmonton City Centre Airport
Did they close Villeneuve (ZVL)?
I don't think so.
Ok, I'm going to pretend to blame my ignorance on the fact I haven't lived in the YEG area for +4 years. Nonetheless I didn't even give ZVL any thought!
That being said, has it been confirmed that any businesses and/or flight schools will be transitioning to Villeneuve?
Re: Edmonton City Centre Airport
Does the city have the mineral rights ?
Maybe it is not about condos and corrupt realtors relatives ,maybe they are sitting on a giant oil deposit or a diamond mine
Maybe it is not about condos and corrupt realtors relatives ,maybe they are sitting on a giant oil deposit or a diamond mine