ACPA to fight Jazz's 757 acquisition

[yycflyguy]

I think we got a bit off track here...

Did we? Or is it all part of a bigger picture?

[Localizer]

I think we got a bit off track here...

No we didn't .. you wanted to talk about "industry standard" and how Jazz is the sole company that is bringing it down. Well .. you opened the door .. we're just walking thru.

I think Mbav8r expanded enough for me on my WJ thoughts.

[HavaJava]

Where was your concern for the industry when WestJet lowered the standard for this profession?? ..

Where was your concern for the industry when CanJet lowered the standard for this profession?? ..

Industry standard is more than just pay ... its also benefits, penison, working conditions ... these 2 companies have brought that standard down, but nobody seems to be leaning on them?? ... That makes it look like you have more of a problem with Jazz than "industry standard".

Just a little food for thought.

If you search my posts you will find that I have a great concern for Canjet lowering the standard of the pilot profession. I am appalled at the low wages, especially the Captain rates. What upsets me the most about Canjet is their use of foreign pilots without any reciprocal agreement in place. They were able to undercut the competition because they could avoid training the necessary Canadian pilots and instead just hire foreigners.

This has been discussed ad naseum and I hope that the College of Pilots can do something to put a stop to crooked business practices and continuing decline in WAWCONs.

Just to be clear, I am not trying to keep any group of pilots from doing any particular work or saying that certain flying is only for certain airlines. I am just trying to make sure that those pilots get reimbursed a fair and equitable wage for doing it. You may say it's none of my business, but when my contract negotiations come around and my company says, "well, ABC pilots will do the same work for half the rate", it suddenly becomes very much my business.

[teacher]

When WJ arrived advertising "cheap travel" and offering "discount fares" they did more damage to this profession than Jazz could ever do by perpetuating the Walmart mentality that is plaguing our industry today. Cheap Cheap Cheap is all people are looking for and WJ made it front and centre in their advertising campaigns. It was easy than when they paid crap and everyone was on first year pay scales but things have changed and now they're no longer a discount carrier, thank God but the damage has been done.

Bringing standards down? Seriously? We'll see what the new pay scale is in the new contract than we'll talk.

[Rudy]

Hey, at least they Care-antee!

'Yeah, well, Westjet and Canjet screwed things up too' ???

Come on!

[Localizer]

Hey, at least they Care-antee!

'Yeah, well, Westjet and Canjet screwed things up too' ???

Come on!

The question was ... where was your concern for the "industry standard" when these 2 companies were "lowering the bar"?.

We haven't finished negotiations and the labels are already being applied. So again .. it seems like there is more of an issue with Jazz breaking its mold of regional carrier into something more, than this "industry standard" crap. We're fighting for a career contract ...

[KAG]

and don't forget the lack of a professional uniform....its pretty lame when the F/A's are wearing suits and the pilots look like airport security guards in cheap leather jackets

but the cleaning airplanes thing is pretty big for me, its disgusting to watch the poor blokes picking up garbage in front of the passengers ...that has got to change before I would ever consider working there

Our "cheap" leather jackets are custom made locally in YYC and cost around $800.
And no worries about the grooming, it takes 3 minutes and is not a big deal. It won't change so don't bother applying.

[JohnnyHotRocks]

You guys realize that we are all in this together and we ALL need professional help! I'm not talking psychiatrists either...I'm talking college, or Canada wide union, or whatever it takes to stop the "race to the bottom"....

[YO_MAMMA]

couldn't agree with you more

[KAG]

When WJ arrived advertising "cheap travel" and offering "discount fares" they did more damage to this profession than Jazz could ever do by perpetuating the Walmart mentality that is plaguing our industry today. Cheap Cheap Cheap is all people are looking for and WJ made it front and centre in their advertising campaigns. It was easy than when they paid crap and everyone was on first year pay scales but things have changed and now they're no longer a discount carrier, thank God but the damage has been done.

Bringing standards down? Seriously? We'll see what the new pay scale is in the new contract than we'll talk.

Please explain what damage has been done? Oh you mean flying being affordable to the general public? That was going to happen one way or another, Westjet or not. The train was once only for the rich and famous...get where I'm going with this?
What is wrong with a company flying people from A to B and actually turning profit? That profit isn't being taken from my pay or that that of my peers.
Our grooming saves the company millions, finances the next NG coming online. I get paid very well, but I'm not beyond cleaning a plane, and down the road making 200K+ I will still be there picking up trash because it helps my company save money, and to be honest I'm not too full of myself to lend a hand.

[Troubleshot]

When WJ arrived advertising "cheap travel" and offering "discount fares" they did more damage to this profession than Jazz could ever do by perpetuating the Walmart mentality that is plaguing our industry today. Cheap Cheap Cheap is all people are looking for and WJ made it front and centre in their advertising campaigns. It was easy than when they paid crap and everyone was on first year pay scales but things have changed and now they're no longer a discount carrier, thank God but the damage has been done.

Bringing standards down? Seriously? We'll see what the new pay scale is in the new contract than we'll talk.

Please explain what damage has been done? Oh you mean flying being affordable to the general public? That was going to happen one way or another, Westjet or not. The train was once only for the rich and famous...get where I'm going with this?
What is wrong with a company flying people from A to B and actually turning profit? That profit isn't being taken from my pay or that that of my peers.
Our grooming saves the company millions, finances the next NG coming online. I get paid very well, but I'm not beyond cleaning a plane, and down the road making 200K+ I will still be there picking up trash because it helps my company save money, and to be honest I'm not too full of myself to lend a hand.

I gotta agree with KAG on this one. I would disagree if WestJet wasn't making any money but we all know this isn't the case. They have a formula that works for the company and the passengers (guests I mean). If another company cannot compete in the market place it either has to re-invent itself or fall by the wayside.

[yycflyguy]

Before you all get a sore hand from patting yourselves on the back, I would like to point out that historically Westjet was lucky to be in the position they were in back in 1999-2000. The forced CAIL/AC merger left a huge void that allowed them to grow into their domestic/leisure niche. Yeah, I get that the pilots grooming the plane saves on groomers but don't be fooled that their "unique" business model was what allowed them to grow to where they are today. It was taking advantage of the market at the appropriate time... not some genius business plan.

[tailgunner]

This is an interesting read. I do find it ironic though. The WJ backers are now tooting the horn of free market forces, of the policy of adapt or " fall by the wayside". Someone even suggested that the other airlines had plenty of time to prepare for Wj's arrival. Yet they convieniently forget that when WJ started, they, WJ, creid foul, and sought protection from the very same market forces that they now trumpet. Thay fought against the big bad existing airlines that were forcing capacity into the market that poor Clive was trying to get a foothold on. Thay complained about artificial conditions that were being created by others. They complained that AC and Canadian were unfairly targeting WJ in the west by using their resources from their eastern operations....Just an observation.

[KAG]

This was before my time, but wasn't ZIP created to battle WJ in the West?

[rudder]

This was before my time, but wasn't ZIP created to battle WJ in the West?

Yes. And that went really well, didn't it

[Localizer]

This was before my time, but wasn't ZIP created to battle WJ in the West?

Yes. And that went really well, didn't it

Its pretty safe to say Zip was failed before it began. It was too late .... had it been started sooner it may have had a chance.

Kag .. its nice you enjoy the Westjet life and that you think flying should be made affordable .. But personally, I believe an airline should charge a fair rate for their flying .. for themselves, employees, and the customer. 2 days ago the Globe and Mail had an advertisement for Westjet .. $49 dollars in Canada .. Thats cheaper then Greyhound .. and again cheapens us all .. Whats next?? Jetsgo 1 cent return fare?

Happy grooming!

[Big Pistons Forever]

WestJet is consistantly profitable and pays its narrow body jet pilots more than any other Canadian airline. To me this would imply that they are charging the "right" amount for each seat. The bottom line is long term airline success is entirely predicated on competant management....not aircrew wage levels. No North Amercain airline has cut its way to stable profitability yet.......

[JohnnyHotRocks]

I was waiting to hear that name....."Jetsgo".....talk about lowering the bar....bunch of Georgian pilots paying $30grand to get some jet time so they could end up in China....

[KAG]

This was before my time, but wasn't ZIP created to battle WJ in the West?

Yes. And that went really well, didn't it

Its pretty safe to say Zip was failed before it began. It was too late .... had it been started sooner it may have had a chance.

Kag .. its nice you enjoy the Westjet life and that you think flying should be made affordable .. But personally, I believe an airline should charge a fair rate for their flying .. for themselves, employees, and the customer. 2 days ago the Globe and Mail had an advertisement for Westjet .. $49 dollars in Canada .. Thats cheaper then Greyhound .. and again cheapens us all .. Whats next?? Jetsgo 1 cent return fare?

Happy grooming!

Loc, market stimulation aside (every company does it, both seasonally and in new markets) isn't that what've been doing -Charging what’s fair for the company, employees and customers while turning a good profit? I mean were in the black and paid well, what are people bitching about.
Oh no I have to pick up some used news papers and cross a few seatbelts, life is rough here at Westjet.
3 years ago I was told in my initial that our grooming saves the company 9 million annually; that was then, we’ve grown. If I have to do a few extra duties to keep my company healthy and in the black (and me gainfully employed), then so be it.

[Localizer]

If I have to do a few extra duties to keep my company healthy and in the black (and me gainfully employed), then so be it.

Thats really funny ... this line makes it sound like you're willing to "lower the bar" in order to keep your job ... if you have to of course ...