Should the government be funding flight training at all?

[McJagger]

All this elitist talk of restricting CPL training to certain government chosen institutions got me thinking...

as an FTU kinda guy, why should I have to pay for my flight training, and somebody elses? I mean, I work hard to pay personally for every penny of my flight training, it isn't easy, it is very hard work requiring a TON of personal sacrafice (1 relationship to date, missing my dog growing old, not being able to afford 'fun' things etc). I feel kinda ripped off that while I am towing the line my tax dollars are going to fund other peoples flight training.. Not only this but the nature of a tax base subsidized system is such that the FTU is also paying to give their competition an artificially low bottom line.

Not to mention, I find it highly insulting that after gifting these guys a subsidized rate they come and rail against my ability to compete in the market place.

Will these guys ever be able to tow the line themselves or has their work ethic and personal integrity been eroded to the point where they expect everything to be done for them?

I pay for my training and I don't bitch about it. I have the salt to take it to the next level and I don't need some fake degree in aviation to make me a viable employee. I'll bust hump and make more sacrafices if I need to and if tht means working for a shit wage well that is life.. Ive walked a ladder from the bottom up and never =sold myself short.

I am sick of all these 'kids' who think that the ladder starts at the top and goes up from there.

The best solution to flight training isn't to make it more exclusive, it is to make it more expensive.. people will do what they have to to get a job to a point but somewhere the econmics of the situation dictate that they can't work for what they can't afford to live on. As hedley says water does not flow up hill and only those who are living a subsidized life can afford to sell our industry out. It is time to end this cycle, and you don't do it by giving people more free stuff and manipulating the pool, you do it by making sure tht a broke pilot will only take what he can afford to survie on.

Why do those who already have a hand up keep coming back for more hand outs?

Welfare pilots will always be welfare pilots, the FTU guys (Im sure there are a lot of them) should be railing against this ridiculous inpropriety before the way we did it no longer exists.

[bushhopper]

The first answer you will receive. Your welcome to apply to any subsidized program or the military where you will even receive pay you while you train! No structured program kids ever start any higher then FTU guys. I never heard a case of special treatment. EVER! Aviation industry is still mostly based on who you know. You could also receive a diploma or degree at private flying school!

The truth is, pretty much any community college or university are subsidized by the government in ALL SUBJECTS! Most if not all university research is funded by the government or private donations.

Edited due lack of Organization:

Our country is trying to keep an educated population by subsidizing all community colleges or Universities.

Even if you decide to return back to school, you can gain access to subsidized program in my different subjects. There are online courses you can do, night school, part time, full time, summer only, self study. Your more than welcome to get a diploma or degree. Why not take advantage of the opportunity? Many world wide would dream of such possibility. Foreign students pay 2-3 and even 4 times more than Canadian citizens for the same education. ( end of the edit )

Our nation strives to up the standard, even if you're on the right track, you'll get run over if you shit there, whats the point of going backwards to stone age? Our nation is trying to stay competitive on the world market. We have some serious competition, like USA, China, Europe, Russia, and India in many industrialized sectors. The only way our nation can progress with a ever more complicated infrastructure and more complex industry is with education. The purpose of profession specialization is to keep it less complicated and more specific.

What would you like our nation to spend money on? More war at the price of life? G20 summit cost over 2 billion dollars? Gun registry 2 billion dollars wasted? War in Afghanistan estimated to cost 17 billion plus 7 billion afterward? All pilots in Canada could of been compensated for their training 10 fold!

Just to clarify something, getting accepted into the Canadian Air force WITH out a Degree is IMPOSSIBLE! SOMETIMES very few lucky pilots manage to get in with a diploma under the continued education program, and they must earn a degree within 9 years of joining. Many citizens from subsidized university programs join the air force. There is another path you could take. You can earn a degree through the military, all expenses paid! thereafter apply to the air force.

You should be proud our nation which offers free health care, free education up to high school, and offers subsidized post secondary education programs. Thousands of teenagers are able to earn a diploma or degree and put it to good use in Canada and world wide. Our post secondary education system is highly recognized world wide. This is exactly where I want my tax money to be spend on. No thanks to paying $800 dollars for health insurance each month like some do in the states! I rather pay tax. Equalize living standards nation wide, not just to the lucky few.

Competition is getting tough in all spectrum's of professions. The only way to stay competitive is by education, weather it is earning a diploma, degree, new rating, new license, certifications or learning another language. Education never stops in most professions. Not only white collar careers but also skilled labor. Some of the new technologies require lots of new certifications and hours of education.

[Av_Av]

McJagger, I'm inclined to agree with you. But the removal of funding for the subsidized programs would have to be done in parallel with raising the bar with regard to the licensing standard. The fact is that there are plenty of private FTU's that provide half-assed training. It's a shame that they get away with it, since it just makes the whole industry look bad.

"Raising the bar", however, does not mean increasing hours, as some seem to think. More hours does not equal better training. The improvement needs to come in the form of demonstrations of knowledge and skill -- meaning written exams and flight tests. Further improvement needs to come in the form of higher quality instruction -- which means raising the bar even higher for flight instructor candidates and finding a way to reduce turnover in the flight training industry.

Needless to say, there is plenty more to be said along these lines, but I'll move on into my response to bushhopper...

Your welcome to apply to any subsidized program or the military where you will even pay you while you train!

True. But upon being rejected from a subsidized program, your taxes are then used to support those accepted. This may be a necessary evil for the military programs, but it is outrageous for civilian operators.

No structured program kids ever start any higher then FTU guys.

Don't kid yourself. A lack of (or reduction in) student-loan debt is a very tangible, taxpayer supported head-start. So is the benefit you can receive from starting younger when others had to slow their training in order to pay for it.

I never heard a case of special treatment. EVER!

Well, clearly, if you've never heard of it, it's never happened.

You could also receive a diploma or degree at private flying school!

Diploma maybe. Degree no. Degrees come from accredited, authorized (usually by legislation), degree granting institutions.

The truth is, pretty much any community college or university is subsidized by the government in ALL SUBJECTS!

Umm... No. Provincial colleges and universities usually are. Private colleges (of which there are MANY) are generally not.

Most if not all university research is funded by the government or private donations.

Private donations are a separate issue and entirely at the discretion of the donor. Government funding of universities is for research, not education (their best efforts at PR notwithstanding).

Our country is trying to keep an educated population. Even if you decide to return back to school, you can gain access to subsidized program in my different subjects. There are online courses you can do, night school, part time, full time, summer only, self study. Your more than welcome to get a diploma or degree. We should instead of lowering the standard we should strive to make it higher, whats the point of going backwards? Only way our nation can progress with a ever more complicated infrastructure is with education. The purpose of profession specialization is to keep it less complicated and more specific.

I'm not sure how this is relevant. I'm also not sure I follow it all. Perhaps you could reorganize your thoughts. Also, as your English instructor in college no doubt taught you, use a thesis statement. That'll help us non-aviation-college grads figure things out .

What would you like our nation to spend money on?

Tax cuts.

More war? G20 summit cost over 2 billion dollars? Gun registry 2 billion dollars wasted?

Even if we could, by some miracle, convince our politicians to eliminate waste, the savings would be better spent on tax cuts and/or paying down government debt.

War in Afghanistan estimated to cost 17 billion plus 7 billion afterward? All pilots in Canada could of been compensated for their training 10 fold!

Don't bet on it. Do you think we would've saved $24B if we didn't go to war in Afghanistan? Nope. That money would've been spent on training and upkeep (maybe even the occasional upgrade) instead of combat. Just because we're not at war doesn't mean we can stop spending money on our military. The real cost of the war would be the marginal cost over peacetime military upkeep. You can be sure that it's MUCH lower than your $24B. And again, the money that was saved would be better spent on tax cuts and paying down government debt. "Compensating" pilots for their training would be a ridiculous idea.

Just to clarify something, getting accepted into the Canadian Air force WITH out a Degree is IMPOSSIBLE!

No it isn't. Lots of non-coms in the Air Force don't have degrees. Perhaps you mean getting into the air Force as an Officer? In that case, the degree requirement is for the commission, not the pilot's seat. And make no mistake, Air Force pilots are officers first, and pilots a distant second.

Many citizens from subsidized university programs join the air force. There is another path you could take. You can earn a degree through the military, all expenses paid! thereafter apply to the air force.

All expenses paid, and then apply to the Air Force after? Please explain how this works.

You should be proud our nation offers free health care, free education up to high school, and offers subsidized post secondary education programs.

Free health care? Are you on crack? (Sorry, that seems rude, but really, free health care?) It amazes me the number of people in this country who think we have free health care. Even if we ignore the obvious huge cost in the form of taxation, our "health care" is neither free nor health care. As for the free education up to high school, well, sure, if you call that crap education (and once again ignore the taxation angle). My kids are being home schooled.

Many thousands of teenagers are able to earn a diploma or degree and put it to good use in Canada and world wide.

Yes. But I'm not sure how that statement supports your position.

Our post secondary education system is highly recognized world wide.

Have you traveled and/or lived worldwide? I have. There's nothing special about our post secondary education system. It's not bad, but it certainly isn't "highly" recognized.

[GTODD]

In my opinion no, the government should not be funding flight training at all. Most of these programs are a joke. They do not provide their graduates with the skills necessary to be of any use to most operators. They have a cookie cutter approach to flight training, and they close the flight line any time the weather is not perfect. They do this because they realise that their student pilots have not been trained well enough to fly in adverse weather.

I think a student pilot is much better off training at a traditional flight school, where they will be given the opportunity to learn in various types of weather, and environments more similar to the ones they will be expected to work in once they graduate.

For those of you who feel ripped off by your hard earned tax dollars going into these government funded programs perhaps you could try writing to your MLA’s or anyone else who might be in an influential position to put a stop to this practice.

[bushhopper]

In my opinion no, the government should not be funding flight training at all. Most of these programs are a joke. They do not provide their graduates with the skills necessary to be of any use to most operators. They have a cookie cutter approach to flight training, and they close the flight line any time the weather is not perfect. They do this because they realise that their student pilots have not been trained well enough to fly in adverse weather.
I think a student pilot is much better off training at a traditional flight school, where they will be given the opportunity to learn in various types of weather, and environments more similar to the ones they will be expected to work in once they graduate.
For those of you who feel ripped off by your hard earned tax dollars going into these government funded programs perhaps you could try writing to your MLA’s or anyone else who might be in an influential position to put a stop to this practice.

If you put a stop to subsiding flight programs, you will have to put a stop to all subsidized programs. You can't just choose and pick.

The fact that you said: They have a cookie cutter approach to flight training, and they close the flight line any time the weather is not perfect. They do this because they realize that their student pilots have not been trained well enough to fly in adverse weather. is absolutely wrong, many here can personally attest to it. Most flight training is top notch. I can also provide you with simple evidence that training is much more consistent. Any subsidized program would be able to dispute your claims within in minutes with proper evidence, which you lack. I do agree with you most subsidized programs will DO everything in their power to prevent the cowboy attitude many receive through a private FTU. Cowboy attitude is responsible for countless accidents. TC highly recognizes the cowboy attitude to be an issue in our industry.

You have to know when to say no to your boss. You have to know your limit. Safety first! You are better off saying no and living to fly another day, then risking your life and the life of your passengers for profit and carelessness. While you progress in your career you become more comfortable with many situations. It is a much better approach to training then making you over confident from the start.

Not all, but most, Instructors who educate at structured programs are highly recognized individuals in the industry with YEARS of experience and the know how on how to properly design a curriculum to match the demands of the industry.

[bushhopper]

Our post secondary education system is highly recognized world wide.

Have you traveled and/or lived worldwide? I have. There's nothing special about our post secondary education system. It's not bad, but it certainly isn't "highly" recognized.

While you home school your children you still have to obey the minimum education standards. Your children still have to write all the same exams. I do agree with you that you can achieve a much higher standard through home schooling. Precisely what I am planing on doing when I have a family. Therefor, gaining access to any community College or University should be a piece of cake. I am sure your children would have no trouble graduating at the top of their class.

Most parents can`t afford the time or resources to home school their children. You obviously know the reasons why.

YES, I have lived worldwide for many years.

[Av_Av]

While you home school your children you still have to obey the minimum education standards. Your children still have to write all the same exams.

Standards which will be easy to meet and greatly exceed, and exams that will be a breeze, when the kids haven't been guinea pigs for some bureaucrat's latest "new teaching method" fad -- not to mention spending their days in overcrowded classrooms with teachers who are forced to teach to the "average" (whatever that means) using a mediocre syllabus and an almost complete absence of good training aids.

The minimum standards don't mean anything to me. And nor should they to anybody in this industry. There's far to much emphasis on the minimum, and not nearly enough emphasis on striving (never reaching, but striving nonetheless) for perfection. That might be ok if the minimum was actually high enough, but it clearly isn't.

[bushhopper]

While you home school your children you still have to obey the minimum education standards. Your children still have to write all the same exams.

Standards which will be easy to meet and greatly exceed, and exams that will be a breeze, when the kids haven't been guinea pigs for some bureaucrat's latest "new teaching method" fad -- not to mention spending their days in overcrowded classrooms with teachers who are forced to teach to the "average" (whatever that means) using a mediocre syllabus and an almost complete absence of good training aids.

The minimum standards don't mean anything to me. And nor should they to anybody in this industry. There's far to much emphasis on the minimum, and not nearly enough emphasis on striving (never reaching, but striving nonetheless) for perfection. That might be ok if the minimum was actually high enough, but it clearly isn't.

Well you just said it! Earning good grades in high school should be a breeze for most pilots! Many education professionals agree that high school standards are to low! I totally support revamping the system to emphasize reaching for perfection. What do you make of those pilots who struggle with High School and are forced to peruse flight training privately? Don`t you think for that very reason those who support raising the standards for a CPL are legitimate?

[Morav]

They have a cookie cutter approach to flight training

As opposed to the alternative "lets get this done as cheap as possible" approach....

[GTODD]

Of course the people who run these government funded programs would dispute that they don’t allow their students to fly in adverse weather conditions, and that their training does not prepare their students to be of any use to a potential employer. It is in their best interest to deny it. But if this is not true then why are there operators in northern Ontario who have policies of not hiring graduates from these government funded programs?

Bushhopper, obviously I disagree with the opinions you have been expressing in the last few days, but please keep posting. Most of your comments have been so far off base they are actually hurting your cause. At the very least they provide a good laugh.

[modi13]

Precisely what I am planing on doing when I have a family.
Therefor

Please, don't. Let your subsidized programs ensure that your children receive the same level of quality education as you did.
In all of your rants about the necessity of subsidized college programs, across a variety of threads, you've never actually explained how a diploma makes you a better pilot. How does it make you better able to fly than your compatriots with the same flight training but no diploma?

The fact that you said: They have a cookie cutter approach to flight training, and they close the flight line any time the weather is not perfect. They do this because they realize that their student pilots have not been trained well enough to fly in adverse weather. is absolutely wrong

In another thread you said that you wouldn't fly cross-country if the ceiling is below 3000 feet. That sounds like precisely what GTODD was referring to. So were you provided with high-quality flight training which included flying in marginal conditions, but you're not comfortable flying in conditions that are less than ideal despite that?

[bushhopper]

Precisely what I am planing on doing when I have a family.
Therefor

Please, don't. Let your subsidized programs ensure that your children receive the same level of quality education as you did.
In all of your rants about the necessity of subsidized college programs, across a variety of threads, you've never actually explained how a diploma makes you a better pilot. How does it make you better able to fly than your compatriots with the same flight training but no diploma?

The fact that you said: They have a cookie cutter approach to flight training, and they close the flight line any time the weather is not perfect. They do this because they realize that their student pilots have not been trained well enough to fly in adverse weather. is absolutely wrong

In another thread you said that you wouldn't fly cross-country if the ceiling is below 3000 feet. That sounds like precisely what GTODD was referring to. So were you provided with high-quality flight training which included flying in marginal conditions, but you're not comfortable flying in conditions that are less than ideal despite that?

Buddy. I have limits on what is acceptable to say about personal experiences on public forums during my education. Some stuff just stays in the airplane. You should know that. There is nothing to brag about when you made you self scared while flying. Unless your a Cowboy. I fail to see how it is of any benefit allowing a CPL student flying in poor piss conditions below TC standards beneficial! Your not setting an example. Your being foolish! It also shows lack of responsibility on the side of the instructor. What if the student gets caught in such weather conditions he cant handle? Are you willing to have his sole on your conscience? I wonder the rates your FTU would pay to pay for insurance, or maybe your FTU would just lose their license, if anything bad would happen! When your going solo, you need to get signed out. Instructor would be risking their own license. In a structured program they teach you to follow Cars regulations. No float operator will hire you as your first job and let you fly right away! You need to get checked out, and meet minimum insurance hours. Float flying compared to wheels is two different ball games. Most float flying is done in uncontrolled airspace, and I assume you would know different Cars regulations would apply. Therefor allowing for flight training to be conducted at much lower weather minimums.

I Highly suggest Modi13 you read again the thread. Your refusing to accept what I am trying to say. Education does not make you a better pilot. But it is a fair method of creating a bottle neck effect for future CPL`s, compared to raising the cost which would truly make it elitist! It is our common goal, whether you are a grade or a FTU guy.

[modi13]

Why would we want to create an artificial bottleneck? That's the point I've been trying to get across to you, but you've ignored every post I've made that challenges your ideology. Here's my main point: we can't know how good a pilot someone is until they've actually been given a chance to fly. Education and academics are no measure of how well someone can land a taildragger on a short grass strip in marginal VFR and strong winds. To limit flight training to college programs would be to essentially say that the only determinant of a good pilot is grades, and not the ability to actually fly the airplane or process the information necessary to use good pilot decision making.

[bushhopper]

Why would we want to create an artificial bottleneck? That's the point I've been trying to get across to you, but you've ignored every post I've made that challenges your ideology. Here's my main point: we can't know how good a pilot someone is until they've actually been given a chance to fly. Education and academics are no measure of how well someone can land a taildragger on a short grass strip in marginal VFR and strong winds. To limit flight training to college programs would be to essentially say that the only determinant of a good pilot is grades, and not the ability to actually fly the airplane or process the information necessary to use good pilot decision making.

Buddy, this has nothing to do with gauging the ability of potential pilots. Any pilot should be able to earn high enough grades to get accepted to structured programs. As stated before it is not hard at all! I already explained to you why bottle necking fresh CPL`s makes sense. The question is how do we do it fairly, SO EVERY one has equal opportunity of succession. lack of talent becomes VERY obvious during the flight training. Therefor, he or she would never get a recommend for a flight test. Obviously if a student can exceed flight test standards he is a good pilot. Whether he is a employable pilot will become quite apparent after his or hers first season. Kapish?

[McJagger]

The first answer you will receive. Your welcome to apply to any subsidized program or the military where you will even receive pay you while you train! No structured program kids ever start any higher then FTU guys. I never heard a case of special treatment. EVER! Aviation industry is still mostly based on who you know. You could also receive a diploma or degree at private flying school!

I know you felt this point was so good that you had to PRIVATE MESSAGE it to me (which I really did not appreciate) however I will answer you here as I would answer you there (note, note their, or they're)

IF = THEN
MORE=THAN
YOUR=BELONGS TO YOU
YOU'RE= YOU + ARE

wtf do they teach you at college anyways. I know I know you speak three languages... so do I... but the ICAO language is what? english.. perhaps you should focus on learning it.

My real response to your comment is, I could have easiy taken any route I wanted. My brain works well enough to get me into any institution for any career path I may or not choose to take. To be honest, the reason I decided to go the FTU route was two fold, one the training looked way better on paper, and turned out to be so in reality. The second reason would be I don't like guys like you and college programs is where you find them. (there's (note not theirs) one in every crowd and several in college aviation programs)

The truth is, pretty much any community college or university are subsidized by the government in ALL SUBJECTS! Most if not all university research is funded by the government or private donations.

Im not bagging on the guys working the college flight training gig. I know A LOT (note not alot) of them and they are awesome guys. What type of return on investment does the government get from flight training.. not a damned thing.. however in the high science fields they subsidize the research and walk away with a tangible benefit (potentially.)

Our country is trying to keep an educated population by subsidizing all community colleges or Universities.

Not working that well. Of my five high school friends who went to university exactly one of them is working in their degree field. The rest are making far less than I make and are in debt up to their ears (they took a real degree program, not some bs aviation degree) with no hope of ever using their degree. The timing has passed them by and they are fiding the truth is the only way to make 'easy' decent money is in the trades.

Even if you decide to return back to school, you can gain access to subsidized program in my different subjects. There are online courses you can do, night school, part time, full time, summer only, self study. Your more than welcome to get a diploma or degree. Why not take advantage of the opportunity? Many world wide would dream of such possibility. Foreign students pay 2-3 and even 4 times more than Canadian citizens for the same education. ( end of the edit )

Thanks tips but I remember all that from the recruiters that came to my highschool when I was young. Foreign students who come here because even at 3 - 4 times the price our schooling is still cheap in comparison to their home countries...

Our nation strives to up the standard, even if you're on the right track, you'll get run over if you shit there, whats the point of going backwards to stone age? Our nation is trying to stay competitive on the world market. We have some serious competition, like USA, China, Europe, Russia, and India in many industrialized sectors. The only way our nation can progress with a ever more complicated infrastructure and more complex industry is with education. The purpose of profession specialization is to keep it less complicated and more specific.

What imaginary standard are you talking about? There is no standard, the standard is survial and subsistence or great success.

What would you like our nation to spend money on? More war at the price of life? G20 summit cost over 2 billion dollars? Gun registry 2 billion dollars wasted? War in Afghanistan estimated to cost 17 billion plus 7 billion afterward? All pilots in Canada could of been compensated for their training 10 fold!

No offence but in that case @#$! the pilots, let's put the money into our eroding infrastructure wrt healt care, roadways, pretty much anything but pilots.

Just to clarify something, getting accepted into the Canadian Air force WITH out a Degree is IMPOSSIBLE! SOMETIMES very few lucky pilots manage to get in with a diploma under the continued education program, and they must earn a degree within 9 years of joining. Many citizens from subsidized university programs join the air force. There is another path you could take. You can earn a degree through the military, all expenses paid! thereafter apply to the air force.

You sir are now officialy talking out of your ass. I would have gone the mil route but my eyes washed me out. But, I would have done it for a reason other than a free ride n the back of the taxpayers. Some of us believe in something other than our own entitlements.

You should be proud our nation which offers free health care, free education up to high school, and offers subsidized post secondary education programs. Thousands of teenagers are able to earn a diploma or degree and put it to good use in Canada and world wide. Our post secondary education system is highly recognized world wide. This is exactly where I want my tax money to be spend on. No thanks to paying $800 dollars for health insurance each month like some do in the states! I rather pay tax. Equalize living standards nation wide, not just to the lucky few.

I will not accept your arrgoant proclamation of what I should or should not be proud of. Perhaps, once you make a contribution to the tax base your opinion might change (or be worth something) however as it sits now your lack of experience in that regard is tanking your argument.

Perhaps if you weren't so self absorbed in utopia you would realize that pretty much all across the country governments are running as fast and as far away as they can from universal state provided anything.. yet, as we privatize more and more we are not seeing a reduction in our taxes. In one of your arguments you seem to claim that the government can't get it right (g20, afghanistan, gun registry) yet you need these people to come in and save flight training.. give me a break.

Competition is getting tough in all spectrum's of professions. The only way to stay competitive is by education, weather it is earning a diploma, degree, new rating, new license, certifications or learning another language. Education never stops in most professions. Not only white collar careers but also skilled labor. Some of the new technologies require lots of new certifications and hours of education.

I am hardpressed to believe you are in a position to make such an outrageous claim. The only way to stay competitive is the same way staying competitive has always been accomplished, do it better, faster, for cheaper. Be more creative, do something new, revolutionize something. What has never worked is artificially dicking with a system to make it appear as if you are succeeding when in fact you are not. That is the route you want to take and that, my misguided colleague is the road to the stone age you fear so much.

[McJagger]

Buddy, this has nothing to do with gauging the ability of potential pilots. Any pilot should be able to earn high enough grades to get accepted to structured programs. As stated before it is not hard at all! I already explained to you why bottle necking fresh CPL`s makes sense. The question is how do we do it fairly, SO EVERY one has equal opportunity of succession. lack of talent becomes VERY obvious during the flight training. Therefor, he or she would never get a recommend for a flight test. Obviously if a student can exceed flight test standards he is a good pilot. Whether he is a employable pilot will become quite apparent after his or hers first season. Kapish?

WHHAAAA? So, you admit that it isn't about making good pilots.. then what the hell is your idiotic rant about? It's about making it easier for the weak to prosper. I could have easily taken your spot at confed but I didn't want it for the reasons outlined above. You are arguing for reducing the pool AND the quality of pilots at the same time. That has got to be the most ridiculous position in aviation.. and there have been some doozies.

buddy, the system as it exists today is as fair as it can be, you either make it or you don't based on what do, can, or won't. THAT is the bottleneck. It is quite clear that a guy like you needs an artificial bottleneck in order to succeed damned actual piloting skills or not. Knowing that an idiotic scheme like you propose might actually come to fruition is potentially the biggest hazard aviation have ever seen. (next to flammable paint on the hindenburg.. but still, even that was smart in comparsion to your plan)

[bushhopper]

According to what you said, ICAO standards are to low! Because I have achieved expert level. Thanks for concurring.

Another reason why we should raise the standards.

Buddy, no need to attack me personally, many pilots in our industry agree over saturation is a serious issue. You do not know jack all about me. Instead of trying to discredit my opinion by offending me personally and attacking my writing abilities, I would suggest you contribute a half decent reply which is not filled wit hatred but logic. Your better writing skills by no means make your opinion any more creditable. According to you, it has nothing to do with flying. You fail to understand my my point. I never said you have to agree, nor I am trying to win the argument. I am just trying to encouraging others to engage in a solution. Frankly, as you may think, I do not really care at all. I enjoy this topic. Nor I personally will ever be effected by over saturation in this industry. But many of your fellow pilots are.

[modi13]

Buddy, this has nothing to do with gauging the ability of potential pilots. Any pilot should be able to earn high enough grades to get accepted to structured programs. As stated before it is not hard at all! I already explained to you why bottle necking fresh CPL`s makes sense. The question is how do we do it fairly, SO EVERY one has equal opportunity of succession. lack of talent becomes VERY obvious during the flight training. Therefor, he or she would never get a recommend for a flight test. Obviously if a student can exceed flight test standards he is a good pilot. Whether he is a employable pilot will become quite apparent after his or hers first season. Kapish?

Really? Nothing? Then how do we determine who should be accepted into college programs? I used to be a flight instructor, so I know quite well that there is no correlation between good academics and the ability to fly a plane. If we only accept those who got good grades in high school, we would eliminate a huge number of "natural" pilots who have immense "stick and rudder" skills and brilliant PDM, but can't remember when the French Revolution took place or what an ion is. As I said in another thread, we do not all have equal opportunities to succeed in high school: some students have to work and don't have time to study, while others are provided private tutors by their parents. Basing acceptance into flight school on grades could limit aviation, or any other profession, to those from the wealthiest families.
And if we don't let people into flight training programs, HOW THE HELL DO WE DETERMINE IF THEY LACK TALENT OR IF THEY'RE CAPABLE OF EXCEEDING FLIGHT TEST STANDARDS?! How do we determine if someone is an employable pilot in their first season if they don't even get accepted into flight school? You don't seem to be understanding that restricting the number of CPLs does not guarantee the best pilots will be trained.

[bushhopper]

Buddy, this has nothing to do with gauging the ability of potential pilots. Any pilot should be able to earn high enough grades to get accepted to structured programs. As stated before it is not hard at all! I already explained to you why bottle necking fresh CPL`s makes sense. The question is how do we do it fairly, SO EVERY one has equal opportunity of succession. lack of talent becomes VERY obvious during the flight training. Therefor, he or she would never get a recommend for a flight test. Obviously if a student can exceed flight test standards he is a good pilot. Whether he is a employable pilot will become quite apparent after his or hers first season. Kapish?

Really? Nothing? Then how do we determine who should be accepted into college programs? I used to be a flight instructor, so I know quite well that there is no correlation between good academics and the ability to fly a plane. If we only accept those who got good grades in high school, we would eliminate a huge number of "natural" pilots who have immense "stick and rudder" skills and brilliant PDM, but can't remember when the French Revolution took place or what an ion is. As I said in another thread, we do not all have equal opportunities to succeed in high school: some students have to work and don't have time to study, while others are provided private tutors by their parents. Basing acceptance into flight school on grades could limit aviation, or any other profession, to those from the wealthiest families.
And if we don't let people into flight training programs, HOW THE HELL DO WE DETERMINE IF THEY LACK TALENT OR IF THEY'RE CAPABLE OF EXCEEDING FLIGHT TEST STANDARDS?! How do we determine if someone is an employable pilot in their first season if they don't even get accepted into flight school? You don't seem to be understanding that restricting the number of CPLs does not guarantee the best pilots will be trained.

There are many industry proven methods for testing natural pilots abilities. For example. Air Cadets and gliding, hand and eye coordination exam. Most structured programs accept 3 to 4 times the number of projected graduates, due to the simple fact not all are talented at flying. By raising minimum passing grade on a PPL or CPL flight test by 30-40 points, you will weed out the not so talented pilots. They still will receive a PPL license but wont continue to work towards a CPL at the structured flight training unit. They are more than welcome to continue privately at their own expense. Most of them would earn a CPL at a FTU, at a much lower standard. If we raised the minimum required passing grade for CPL, no matter if he is from structured or private, only talented pilots would pass.

Don`t worry about students getting a free ride towards a PPL. Before you get a chance to earn a PPL you need to meet high standards on the PPL written exam and other specific structured program exams. The student must first prove his or her work ethic in the class room before they have a chance to work towards a PPL. Preventing wasting resources on the wrong students. Sue, Seneca and Confed. apply this method with great success. Seneca takes it one more step. They offer a limited amount of spots, and let the 100 students duke it out in the class room with grades. Top what ever XXXXX goes on to PPL where they can prove their flying skills. Please correct me if I am wrong, but a passing grade for a PPL in any of those 3 programs is 99 points minimum. Anymore then a few 2, and your out.

Private FTU allows not so talented or natural pilots to earn a CPL because it is just to easy to reach a passing grade. The most disturbing issue with private FTU is the "lets get this done as cheap as possible" approach. The FTU has no direct quality control. They just offer aircraft rental and instructors. Quality control is the hands of the student, anyone with a CPL can claim high quality. If I understand correctly, many of you have suggested those type of pilots get washed out during the first few seasons of employment. Fair enough...

To earn your license through a structured program you, you need to exceed ALL requirements for a PPL or CPL on the written and practical. You need to meet educational and flying standards set at a much higher level. Everyone receives equal opportunity. The only way to ever make it through the program is with good work ethic! No one will ever hand you anything. Unless you got the work ethic you will fail educational classes. Lack of talent will prevent you from scoring the right passing grade on your flight test.

I do not understand how can a student be capable of memorizing pages of emergencies, procedures, SOPs and POH pages if he cant remember a few pages from history class! If your student is good at PDM, great! What about mental math, calculating fuel, time, wind correction with out a E6B? Those skills are essential. I do not see the different between studying the POH or Cars regulations, AIM, physics of flight or flight planning to be any different then preparing your self for history or math exam. Becoming a successful student, you need to have the ability to memorize, Analise, process information, and STUDY. If you can not make it through simple high school, how in the world are you able to memorize emergencies, POH, AIM, cars, and PDM? Obviously your not capable of following simple instructions given to you by your high school teacher. The only reason to ever refuse making it through high school with good grades is laziness and lack of work ethic, not lack of smarts. If it is because he does not posses the intelligence to succeed in high school, he will NEVER succeed as a pilot. Period.

Even doe, most students are smarts in class, and have talent to fly, not all have the motivation to continue in the aviation career. Again, they will wash out on the first or second season.

Its almost sunrise, I personally put to much effort into this thread, I should be sleeping, lol. I think I have explained the concept. Take it, leave it or Improve it. please direct any future questions to the general public, not me. Please don`t qoute me, I wont respond, lol. Please do not bitch at me, I tried to stay as cool as possible. I tried to respect and not offend anyone. Thread could use the opinion of others.

[Hedley]

Clearly we need higher taxes and bigger government, which is the solution to all of the problems facing our country right now.

After all, Canada is pretty much a government-owned and operated enterprise right now, we might as well make it official.