Buttonville Airport . . . CYKZ

[Truthteller]

Respond to this...why doesn't ckyz allow a standard left handed circuit flying out southbound smart ass. If your planes didn't make noise Markham would have no issue letting them fly over their residents. Instead Buttonville sends them the other way. Yeah, yeah we know TC handles this but when you go to the root of the issue you find Markham in cahoots with Buttonville on this and TC standing idly by...which is nothing new for them.

This is why Markham airport will never see a clear path to expansion. Their planes would fly over the mayor's and council members houses. Do you really think they want that? You don't have to think too hard to understand why council is blocking Markham airport. It would be sweet irony to have Markham built up to a busy airport and have those residents suffer.

If you think a highway makes more noise than the airport you have no clue dude.

Buttonville has been absolutely uncaring about noise. I can't wait until the bulldozers show up and level the place. I also can't wait to see the place implode on itself as the employees figure out how they've been boned. Well the smart ones at least. All the others will go down with the ship. Beeeeehhhh said the lamb.

[Truthteller]

I'm going to tell you one last time. I have no idea who the Markham person is. I just happen to agree with the opinions. Well everything except Markham development. Although it would be highly ironic to have it be expanded I know it's not going to happen. If it was expanded the Siftons would have no part in it and the Markham residents suffer. Ironic isn't it?

Having said all that I have one piece of advice for you, I would focus on your real job and figuring out a way to not have a repeat of recent events.

I see MarkhamResident made to work in time to post as Truthteller . . .

Guess you can't wait too get home and fly your imaginary plane . . .

[bizjets101]

Sure - guess MarkhamResident can't respond yet until you, I mean he get's home form work - hahaha

kzcvtm; you upset him so much, he responded from work as Truthteller in your
response to his postings as MarkhamResident. hahaha

http://www.pprune.org/biz-jets-ag-flyin ... ets-2.html Check out post #23 on today's pprune.

One guy posts he is looking at buy biz jet block time, another poster - a broker comes on and tells him about what he has to offer.

Pprune moderator comes on to say both posters are posting from the same IP address!!

[fleet16b]

them.

You don't have to think too hard to understand why council is blocking Markham airport.

Even if the owners were trying to expand Markham ( which I do not think they are), the Town has no jurisdiction or hope in hell of stopping them.
See the ruling below.

3 NOVEMBER 2010



Who has the final say as to where an aerodrome may be located in Canada: the federal government, the provinces, or both?

According to the Supreme Court of Canada (“SCC”), the unequivocal answer is the federal government alone. In the first of two decisions released October 15, 2010 which were sponsored by COPA’s Freedom to Fly Fund, the SCC ruled that a provincial law which prohibited non-agricultural land uses in provincially designated agricultural zones could not apply to aerodromes. In the second decision, the SCC ruled that a municipal by-law, which prohibited the use of a specific lake as a water aerodrome, was beyond the jurisdiction of (“ultra vires”) the municipality and thus, the by-law could not apply to the aerodrome. In the result, the owners/operators of the aerodromes in question remain free to carry on their aeronautical activities unhindered by provincial or municipal prohibitions to the contrary.

These two decisions are a reaffirmation and an expansion of decisions dating back 60 years. In 1951, the SCC decided that aeronautics was a matter of national concern and thus should be within the jurisdiction of the federal government. Since taking off and landing was an essential part of aeronautics, the location of aerodromes was necessarily part of that federal power. In that case, the provincial (Manitoba) law in question that authorized municipalities to prohibit the establishment of aerodromes was ruled to be beyond the jurisdiction of (“ultra vires”) the provinces (the “Johannesson” decision).

Notwithstanding this 1951 ruling as well as a number of similar decisions in the decades which followed, provincial and municipal legislators, regulators and by-law officers have relentlessly sought to control the establishment of aerodromes and activities thereupon. They have sought to do so through provincial and municipal planning controls, by the imposition of permit and fee requirements and through the passage of outright prohibitions against aerodromes. In some cases, such efforts to control aerodromes did succeed. For example, in 1987, the British Columbia Court of Appeal upheld a municipal by-law which prohibited the use of a privately owned airstrip by anyone other than the property owner (the “Van Gool” decision). In 1990, the Québec Court of Appeal upheld a provincial law which prohibited a property owner from using his land as an aerodrome because the property was located within a provincial designated agricultural area (the “St-Louis” decision).

The threat to the freedom to fly posed by such decisions, as well as numerous other instances of provincial and municipal attempts to regulate aerodromes, was clear. If such efforts succeeded, it would mean a patchwork of regulations affecting aerodromes which could change from province to province or indeed, from municipality to municipality. On behalf of tens of thousands of aviators, COPA became very active in defending the principle that the federal government, and only the federal government, had the jurisdiction to control aeronautics through a single regulatory scheme that would be consistent across the country. This included the power to determine whether and where to establish aerodromes and how such power was exercised. A number of years ago, the COPA leadership created our Special Action Fund (now called more appropriately the Freedom to Fly Fund) to, amongst other things, provide a source of funding to defend this principle. It was recognized that it might be necessary to take these issues back to the SCC, particularly in light of the Van Gool and St-Louis decisions.

As matters turned out, COPA became involved in two such cases: one involving a private aerodrome (“Laferrière” also known as “COPA”) and one involving a commercial aerodrome (“Lacombe”). Both cases directly involved the issue of federal jurisdiction over aeronautics and provincial and municipal attempts to encroach into same. On October 14, 2009, the SCC heard appeals in these two cases. We are pleased to report that on October 15, 2010 the SCC ruled in favour of COPA’s long-standing position. In addition, SCC expressly recognized that the Van Gool and St-Louis decisions had been overruled and were no longer good law.

While these decisions vindicate the rights of Canadians to establish aerodromes, they do not mean that we can let down our guard against continuing challenges. This article is intended to explain what was decided, what the decisions mean and provide some guidance for those who are considering establishing an aerodrome and who may be confronted by local authorities because of their aerodrome. It also highlights the need for keeping our Freedom to Fly Fund strong.

[kzcvtm]

Respond to this...why doesn't ckyz allow a standard left handed circuit flying out southbound smart ass. If your planes didn't make noise Markham would have no issue letting them fly over their residents. Instead Buttonville sends them the other way. Yeah, yeah we know TC handles this but when you go to the root of the issue you find Markham in cahoots with Buttonville on this and TC standing idly by...which is nothing new for them.

You seem to know all then explain why when departing on Rwy 15 for a north departure you are cleared to a left turn upon departure? It's simply going over those residents you are so protective of. Southbound departures from 15 are directed a right turn to follow the highways (404/DVP). From Rwy 33, it's a left turn out to go southbound. From Rwy 03 it's a right turn out to go southbound over those houses you're so concerned about and from Rwy 21 it's a left turn out. Your argument has no validity whatsoever. Don't spout out about what you don't have a clue about. (Insert your foot here Truthteller or MarkhamResident if that's who you really are!!!)

If you think a highway makes more noise than the airport you have no clue dude.

You obviously don't read well... I said:

and had more noise from trains than planes.

Now that you have your foot firmly inserted into your mouth, I believe a good veterinarian can cure hoof in mouth disease, or are you suffering 'MAD COW' disease?????

[bcrosby]

When I was getting my PPL at YKZ, there was a culture of responsibility and being courteous to those who live in the vicinity of the airport. No one was encouraged to fly low and over.

+1

I can back up kzcvtm's statement. When I was getting my Multi rating, we did all the single engine stuff up near Orillia airport. Nobody around there to piss off.

I was a student with Seneca (part time program) and TAL. The culture of responsibility and safety was taught by everyone. CFIs, instructors, dispatch.. even the flight line crew always made sure that you knew how important it is to be a safe pilot.

MarkhamResident is a troll, he's trying to stir the pot (and it's working on some of you). Using the term "Sifton minions" is disrespectful to both the Sifton family and to the people he is labeling.

The bottom line is that yet another airport in Canada is closing, and there is no stopping this one. COPA wont be able to do anything, The Government wont be able to do anything, and neither will the general public.

A privately owned institution is closing it's doors. They can do whatever the hell they want and we have no say. Accept it and move on.

[bcrosby]

Respond to this...why doesn't ckyz allow a standard left handed circuit flying out southbound smart ass. If your planes didn't make noise Markham would have no issue letting them fly over their residents. Instead Buttonville sends them the other way. Yeah, yeah we know TC handles this but when you go to the root of the issue you find Markham in cahoots with Buttonville on this and TC standing idly by...which is nothing new for them.

Uhmm departures for 15 use right hand departures for noise abatement. All left hand turns have to be made above 2600'.

A *prime* example of the airport working with the community. Community complains about noise, airport/tc goes, "ok, will make these right hand circuits."

So.. I dont know what you're trying to argue?

[dcabrown]

This is why Markham airport will never see a clear path to expansion. Their planes would fly over the mayor's and council members houses. Do you really think they want that? You don't have to think too hard to understand why council is blocking Markham airport.....

So are you going to acknoledge the fact that Markham city council has NO jurisdiction over airport development? And therefore you aforementioned comment is not correct.

Come on now... don't let real facts get in the way of making yourself look like a total ignoramus!

[kzcvtm]

Now Truthteller/MarkhamResident, you've got Sidney's brother (bcrosby) involved! Now you're in trouble!

[bcrosby]

Now Truthteller/MarkhamResident, you've got Sidney's brother (bcrosby) involved! Now you're in trouble!

Bah! ... I wish I was related. That way I can actually afford to fly

[wings905]

Can someone tell me the purpose of this forum? Aside from all the mudslinging and name calling, is this forum to discuss the closing of Buttonville?

[Truthteller]

We'll see what happens. The township will bury the effort in red tape. It needs approval by the ministry of the environment. The ministry of fisheries. Then there's the moriane and other protected areas. Markham airport could have expanded eons ago. Money isn't a problem for the Thompsons. So why isn't it built up like ckyz? Why is there an injunction? Come on, tell me if the law says they can do what hey want at that site. You guys have no real world knowledge of how the system works.

As to the right handed loop off 15, you guys have proven my point. The standard left loop was changed to a right loop for noise abatement to protect the Markham residents. Meanwhile all they do is fly over Richmond Hill and move the problem. This is why I'm saying and you're just confirming that Markham has a serious issue with NIMBYism.

As for bizjets, shouldn't you be teaching or inspecting some planes for airworthiness or something useful.

[Truthteller]

Now Truthteller/MarkhamResident, you've got Sidney's brother (bcrosby) involved! Now you're in trouble!

Oh I'm shaking now.

[kzcvtm]

As to the right handed loop off 15, you guys have proven my point. The standard left loop was changed to a right loop for noise abatement to protect the Markham residents. Meanwhile all they do is fly over Richmond Hill and move the problem. This is why I'm saying and you're just confirming that Markham has a serious issue with NIMBYism.

Aerobatics are not allowed in a control zone or over populated areas. Loop indeed. Obviously you have no aviation experience or you would know the proper terms in order to converse intelligently. (What was I thinking?! Look who I'm responding to!)

Your argument again holds no water. The right hand circuits were established in consultation with the community/TC/Buttonville so the airport and community can work together as partners - not to protect NIMBY's. These right hand circuits off Rwy 15 DO NOT overfly Richmond Hill residents, just a business park. All flights/circuits over the Markham area are at a minimum 1000' AGL (that's Above Ground Level for you non pilots).

[fleet16b]

We'll see what happens. The township will bury the effort in red tape. It needs approval by the ministry of the environment. The ministry of fisheries. Then there's the moriane and other protected areas.

Well truthteller/markhamresident. I guess I should have posted the entire Juducial Ruling.
The ruling started with an aviation company that was operating off a lake in Que. The municipality tried to shut them down . The used threats from the Ministries fish / enviro but all of them were shut down by the ruling and the operator is still there! None of this matters though because I think the owners have no intention of Markham becoming a large airport. Why I say this I will not state publically . Take it as you like. I don't really care.

Markham airport could have expanded eons ago. Money isn't a problem for the Thompsons. So why isn't it built up like ckyz? Why is there an injunction?

It was not expanded eons ago because the owners would not and I suspect did not intend it to. From my dealings with the Manager, he is actually or was a Property Manager who happens to have an interest in aviation and plays around while he manages the property investment.
There are sound financial reasons for letting a business exist on land that is intended as an investment instead of letting it sit dormant.( I won't side track into that here)
As for the injunction, it is an ill informed attempt by the Municipality They have no idea of where the Jurisdiction lies. Alterations, expansions all fall under Federal Jurisdiction.That is a fact. Again research the rulings. The manager of Markham airstrip has always maintained this and while I don't buy into much of the other crap he has stated over the years , he is right in that respect. In fact he kept on getting land fill after they tried to stop him because he knew the law was on his side.

You guys have no real world knowledge of how the system works.

If you ever bother to actually do some research instead of spouting off without knowing what you are saying , you would realize it is you that has no idea. You have consistantly proved that truthteller/ markhamresident.
The people you are debating with far outclass your aviation knowledge base.
I love a good debate and a good challenge but your are providing neither
It's been fun winding you up but your getting boring now....... debating you poses no challenge and you are too easy to disprove.

[wings905]

Can someone tell me the purpose of this forum? Aside from all the mudslinging and name calling, is this forum to discuss the closing of Buttonville?

No answers? I'm interested in getting pilots licence, but reading this forum I'm wondering where to go. I live in Unionville so Buttonville makes sense, but now since it is closing I was thinking Markham?????

Can anyone tell me what would happen if I start at Buttonville and then it closes?

[kzcvtm]

I'm interested in getting pilots licence, but reading this forum I'm wondering where to go. I live in Unionville so Buttonville makes sense, but now since it is closing I was thinking Markham?????

Can anyone tell me what would happen if I start at Buttonville and then it closes?

Buttonville isn't going to close for a couple of years at least. You can certainly start and complete your training in that amount of time.

If you start at YKZ and it closes, you can go to Toronto Island (Billy Bishop), Brampton, Oshawa or Lake Simcoe Regional (Barrie area). There are plenty of other options, but those are probably the closest. You will simply continue from where you left off when your training was interrupted.

[wings905]

Buttonville isn't going to close for a couple of years at least. You can certainly start and complete your training in that amount of time.

If you start at YKZ and it closes, you can go to Toronto Island (Billy Bishop), Brampton, Oshawa or Lake Simcoe Regional (Barrie area). There are plenty of other options, but those are probably the closest. You will simply continue from where you left off when your training was interrupted.

Thanks for your reply.

When is Buttonville closing? From the posts is Markham closing too? I think Brampton and Oshawa are within range, however I could take the subway to the Toronto Island, I didn't know that the Toronto Island had a flight school. So are Brampton and Oshawa partners with Buttonville (same flight school) and will they accept my ground school and any hours I accumulate at Buttonville, or ask me to do more?

[kzcvtm]

Buttonville isn't going to close for a couple of years at least. You can certainly start and complete your training in that amount of time.

If you start at YKZ and it closes, you can go to Toronto Island (Billy Bishop), Brampton, Oshawa or Lake Simcoe Regional (Barrie area). There are plenty of other options, but those are probably the closest. You will simply continue from where you left off when your training was interrupted.

Thanks for your reply.

When is Buttonville closing? From the posts is Markham closing too? I think Brampton and Oshawa are within range, however I could take the subway to the Toronto Island, I didn't know that the Toronto Island had a flight school. So are Brampton and Oshawa partners with Buttonville (same flight school) and will they accept my ground school and any hours I accumulate at Buttonville, or ask me to do more?

Check your PM inbox.

[Truthteller]

You either don't fly or don't know where Richmond Hill is. Loop and circuit, whatever dude is that the best you got?

As to the right handed loop off 15, you guys have proven my point. The standard left loop was changed to a right loop for noise abatement to protect the Markham residents. Meanwhile all they do is fly over Richmond Hill and move the problem. This is why I'm saying and you're just confirming that Markham has a serious issue with NIMBYism.

Aerobatics are not allowed in a control zone or over populated areas. Loop indeed. Obviously you have no aviation experience or you would know the proper terms in order to converse intelligently. (What was I thinking?! Look who I'm responding to!)

Your argument again holds no water. The right hand circuits were established in consultation with the community/TC/Buttonville so the airport and community can work together as partners - not to protect NIMBY's. These right hand circuits off Rwy 15 DO NOT overfly Richmond Hill residents, just a business park. All flights/circuits over the Markham area are at a minimum 1000' AGL (that's Above Ground Level for you non pilots).