The importance of having a degree

[luckheed]

I've seen some smart university grads and stupid "how did you ever graduate elementary school" uni grads. I've seen great pilots with degrees but I've also seen greater pilots without degrees. Anyways, I'm not interested in getting into the debate about who is better or worse since no one is better or worse than the other. However, when I started my aviation career as a "rampie" waaaay up north, cleaning the latrines and loading core boxes and lumber into Twotters, the ramp manager was out smoking one day as I diligently picked up cigarette butts from the yard, and he mentions casually,
"Boy am I glad you worked out!"
"Sorry?"
"Oh, when we were hiring, we had a big debate over whether to hire you or not"
"Oh, over what?"
"Well you got a fancy degree so most of us figured you might be a pretty college boy and go home crying after a couple days"
"Oh"
"Well like I said I'm glad you worked out cuz I'd end up taking the flak for hiring you so. . ."
"Well thanks!"
"No problem and would you mind picking up the dog sh*t while you're picking up those butts?"
"Yup I was just about to do that."
Gotta love this business! LH

[traveller123]

It's a very good idea to have a degree in the case of you loose your medical.

No one know when it can happens...

[Shiny Side Up]

It's a very good idea to have a degree in the case of you loose your medical.

Personally if one was worried about this I'd advise learning a trade. I suppose it doesn't suprise me that knowing a trade is often downplayed by the pilot community, but in my opinion is far more useful just even to make normal life liveable. While having a degree might help me later on in my pilot career, knowing trade skills has helped me immensly now. I also don't have any worry about being employed should I lose my medical, or get laid off, or even for that matter another one of those "aviation decreasing world events" happen.

Not saying that a degree isn't useful, just saying that a lot of pilots would be better off if they had useful skills outside of flying so coffee-stirring (Timmy Ho's currently being the top dollar for that type of work) isn't the only thing they got to fall back on.

[. ._]

My advice, if a pilot wants something to fall back on if he loses his medical is:

Get your plumber, electrician or heating/cooling ticket. Those guys are needed everywhere in the country because everyone has pipes that will f up, businesses need proper wiring to get insurance and there are furnaces that will f up in every corner of the country.

Or an engineering or nursing degree, but that's a LOT of work, and pilots generally don't like work too much.

[SunWuKong]

It's a very good idea to have a degree in the case of you loose your medical.

English is my third language but if I had studied a degree in this language I'd hope I could at least spell correctly "lose", even if i know that spelling is a bit loose when it comes to internet forum. Alright it is just a funny wink not a personal attack don't jump on me

Considering the medical lost only: the proper time to learn something usefull to fall back on is when you precisely lose your medical: then it will be time to learn something in accordance with the labour market at that time, the medical insurance you pay for is here for that.
Paying for a degree 30 000$ just in "case of" that you may use (if your degree is not hasbeen at that time of course) maybe 20 years later, and all of that in order to start an aviation course is simply a joke and a waste of time aviation career wise.
After your degree you will be already tied up with your university loan and will have no choice but to start working and postpone a bit more your training, training that you will eventually begin when the aviation will be in its booming cycle again so that you ll feel in a hurry to get your CPL to surf on the wave, to find out it is too late to get hired being at the end of the hiring cycle so you will be happy to fall back on your old job, and by doing so you will congratulate yourself to have this back up plan without understanding you had created your own failure.

Always study for the good reasons. If you want to go to university, go for it! If you just want to fly, just do it and don't be shy: you will have plenty of time before you meet the Air Canada requirements (flight time) and get a correspondence degree, if you feel you really need it. If you cannot make it in aviation after your training for different reasons, you still can learn something else. I don't see much difference between paying for a degree before or after a CPL debt wise, keeping in mind that if you need money fast it will be more efficient to get a truck driver licence than paying to seat in a classroom for years at university.

Too bad that most of the decision we make are more based on hearsay or missunderstanding than plain common sense.

[xsbank]

SunWuKong, good post. Common sense is actually quite rare on the ground around here.

[traveller123]

I don't see any ''booming cycle'' now. When I started university last year we were in a world recession. Why start a career when there's a lot of pilot laid off? In my case, I want to go oversea for beginning and in these countries, the aviation industry was more affected than here. It was not the right time.

So I took the decision to start a degree. It will certainly not hurt myself about finding a job later in aviation... Maybe not help, but certainly not hurt.

For your information I did my CPL-twin this year. It let me just IFR, but it's only valid two years so I wait later.

Education costs here are very cheap (about 8000$ for a degree), why not take the advantage? The prices will double or triple in the next few years. Anyway finance is my principal interest after pilot, it's not boring for me.

Finally, you can tell this question to 100 pilots and they can give you 100 differents answers... Everybody have is own beliefs.

[SunWuKong]

Thank you Xsbank.

Traveller 123, if you are interested in finance, and in addition 8000$ is enough to cover your finance degree, please go ahead. I don't believe you will find anybody to say you are wrong, I believe you are right.

I was posting following the sentence that some where using as the very reason to go to university: "lost of medical something to fall back on...". Just wanted to make everything clearer.

Concerning the cycle: i didn't mention in which part of it we are. I just know that a cycle doesn't wait for you (when I say you, this is not particularly you traveller 123), better to be a bit early at the train station and finish your interesting book waiting for the train than staying in your living room reading it. And if i didn't missunderstand you this is exactly what you are doing, so good for you. This is how our industry works, as a cycle, not recognizing it could become an issue.

The time factor is usually forgotten when we take a decision. Time affects pilots by different means: first because they evolve in an industry which is dependant of the economic cycle, second because time buiding comes with time, third because a pilot is influenced by is own age, and last but not least circumstances and situation change with time.

As a result there is no such thing as: (degree being done before the CPL as the thread suggest) "me doing the Air Canada screening with a degree" compared to "me doing the Air Canada screening without a degree", by doing so we forget the time factor, we forget that we compare what cannot exist. Those "2 me" are not, if with speak about an human being working through his pilot career, they are two completely different person, aviation speaking, and in addition won't even do their screening the same year and at the same age.
One of the 2 "me" could even possibly miss the opportunity of any screening worthwhile, and not necessarily the one without degree.

So that is why I said we should study for the good reasons.
Getting a degree before a CPL (the subject of this thread?) for the sole and unique mean to save money to pay for a pilot training, or to have more chance to get hired by a company, and/or having a fall back plan in case of a medical lost could just be a fantasy as explained in my previous post. And we just have to be aware of it.


*** "Air Canada screening" just taken as an example, many other companies worthwhile out there.

[evand.13]

IMHO the more degrees a pilot has, the less employable he is, as a line pilot.

Go get a Phd in Physics and then apply to Buffalo. Let me know how that works out for you.

Looking at two identical guys, except one has a degree and 5,000TT and one has a high school diploma and 10,000TT, I'd hire the guy with 10k hours.

PS I have an engineering degree from Queen's U. Very useful in just about everything except working as a line pilot. Nobody needs an educated line pilot.

PPS If you want to get hired by AC, your money and time would be better spent on becoming a visible minority

I've always thought that myself. If you get into the workforce sooner,you are already one step ahead. I mean really, working up North with companys like Buffalo, you'll probably be off the ramps and in the right seat before the "degree guy" is even done his 4 years. Then he still has to go get his flight training which is at least one year, more often than not two. The best asset as a pilot is that extra ####TT on the job, not a degree. Just my personal thoughts based on the stories I've heard.

[confusedalot]

Personal 2 cents worth after 36 years in the industry and now no longer in it.

The only people that care about a university degree is air canada, and the major US airlines. Even then, the vast majority hired by mapleflot over time, did not have university. Many had only high school. Sure, university is a good thing, it will give you an edge, but it is not a surefire magical solution. I know of university grads that were told to never apply again by air canada. They are a strange bunch indeed.

Cathay 747 captains, Singapore widebody captains, and on and on and on, did not have university. yet they were successful.

Place your bets, take your chances. Many have looked for that crystal ball, none have found it, so do what you think is the right thing to do at that certain time and certain place, and hope that the stars line up with that perfect timing thing. There are no guarantees in the aviation business.

[goingnowherefast]

I know several people who did and are doing degrees while working. Certainly not doing mechanical engineering, but for those with the work ethic and dedication, it does happen fairly frequently. Usually takes longer than 4 years too.

[Eric Janson]

I can't remember the last time anyone wanted my education background.

Most companies want to know what you've flown, what you're current on and Command time on Type.

There comes a time when professional qualifications outweigh your education.

[rookiepilot]

In many fields, a degree is a simple blanket prerequisite, used by companies out of pure laziness in their prequalifying efforts.

[complexintentions]

Chalk me up as one of the non-degreed who has not been hindered whatsoever in my career by its absence.

I'm certainly not opposed to education, I'm actually the anomaly within my rather large family in my lack of letters after my name. But the ROI on post-secondary education for MOST fields, particularly non-STEM, is terrible and for those who just want to fly airplanes, a nearly complete waste of time and money.

The whole "but it's a backup plan" sounds good but realistically you're not going to just jump into another field if you lose a medical, no matter what your credentials, if you've been out of that field for any amount of time or never got any experience in it to begin with. No matter how you look at it you're starting over again.

[complexintentions]

Incidentally, the last three posts are by two widebody captains and a business owner. In case anyone wanted some context for the comments.

[ARGO]

How are students (or parents) able to afford both a University education and flight training these days? What is the going rate for a CPL MIFR right now? 60k (ish)?

[Air Ops]

IMHO the more degrees a pilot has, the less employable he is, as a line pilot.

Go get a Phd in Physics and then apply to Buffalo. Let me know how that works out for you.

Looking at two identical guys, except one has a degree and 5,000TT and one has a high school diploma and 10,000TT, I'd hire the guy with 10k hours.

PS I have an engineering degree from Queen's U. Very useful in just about everything except working as a line pilot. Nobody needs an educated line pilot.

PPS If you want to get hired by AC, your money and time would be better spent on becoming a visible minority

I wouldn't say that nobody needs a non educated line pilot. A captain is someone who has to have certain skills in order to work well with crew and passengers and i believe a degree can teach them a PART of that. I am not saying that pilots with degrees are better than others without, I am just curious in knowing your reasoning behind saying "nobody needs an educated line pilot."

If you really want an answer to that, I suggest you post it on .. Hedley is now known as Colonel Saunders and he has been banned from this forum for some time now. Not sure if that was because he was too educated!

[photofly]

A university degree is about critical thinking, creating your own knowledge, being original, and pushing forward the boundaries of human wisdom. (To the extent that vocational courses in plumbing are called "degrees", they're not in fact any such thing.) Nobody wants the captain of their Airbus A330 creating his or her own knowledge about how to land the aircraft, deciding today is the day to be "original" in their interpretation of airline SOPs, or pushing forward the boundaries of anything.

[digits_]

A university degree is about critical thinking, creating your own knowledge, being original, and pushing forward the boundaries of human wisdom. (To the extent that vocational courses in plumbing are called "degrees", they're not in fact any such thing.) Nobody wants the captain of their Airbus A330 creating his or her own knowledge about how to land the aircraft, deciding today is the day to be "original" in their interpretation of airline SOPs, or pushing forward the boundaries of anything.

True, but wouldn't you like it if your pilots had the skills and knowledge to be critical and creative when the need arises? Things like Sully come to mind.

This doesn't imply that no degree == no critical thinking, but the odds are higher that someone with a university degree has a 'higher level' of critical thinking.

[photofly]

>>True, but wouldn't you like it if your pilots had the skills and knowledge to be critical and create when the need arises? Things like Sully come to mind.

Yes. Under those very special circumstances you do want a pilot who can think for themselves. But those circumstances are extremely rare - at least the airlines would like their passengers to believe so. Airlines thrive on the idea that the pilot's individual characteristics are unimportant, that all pilots are equally skilled, and that all airplanes are safe. Just like you don't have to worry about whether the bus driver who drove you to the airport has sufficient "critical thinking" skills to be a safe bus driver, the industry can't afford for people to think that "hero" pilots are a good thing. Otherwise who would be happy to fly with a pilot who isn't a "hero"?