The importance of having a degree

[JeppsOnFire]

Double post

[JeppsOnFire]

This doesn't imply that no degree == no critical thinking, but the odds are higher that someone with a university degree has a 'higher level' of critical thinking.

I'd argue the exact opposite convincingly. Many examples from my industry.

A degree in no way teaches critical thinking. It teaches rote learning skills, taught by those who have never left the classroom, the world of theory to students who then themselves become incapable of independent thought. University today is mindless autonomons teaching more mindless autonomons.

It's no surprise a disproportionate number of great companies are founded by college dropouts, not the cubicle drones formed in university.

I note these companies tend to be in America, where they DO value experience, critical thinking, and creativity, as opposed to country club Canada, where all of the value is put on a degree. Sheer stupidity, and that is why America is America, and Canada is something else. Milquetoast. It's why every Canadian company that expands into the US gets killed, too.

I don't mock you, as mock that attitude and snobbery over a piece of paper, that is crap, on the street or in the air.

Critical thinking, which is an essential part of what I do every day, comes from the attitude of being a student. It cannot be taught, must be learned as a lifetime decision, and has Nothing to do with a degree.

In my industry Harvard grads summa cum laude are put to work in the mailroom at the big firms. Like the ramp in aviation. Cause you got the paper, but don't know jack.

I challenge the notion that 95% of prof's even understand critical thinking to any substantive degree.

Interestingly I was just reading a book about how those that do well in school are successful specifically because they do not think outside the lines; they do well in a structured environment with a predictable course. Creativity is generally unwelcome because it often hinders more than it helps.
Seems to me maybe that’s why airlines want these people. SOP’s anyone?
As an aside - I believe Sully’s performance can be accredited to experience more than critical thinking. Critical thinking can be done somewhat quickly but usually burns up too much time. Reflex and experience probably gave him the quick answers he needed to make important decisions.

[complexintentions]

This doesn't imply that no degree == no critical thinking, but the odds are higher that someone with a university degree has a 'higher level' of critical thinking.

This may have been true, I dunno, 50 years ago or so. And perhaps still is, in narrow specialities or isolated pockets, individual profs and so on.

But I categorically disagree that current liberal arts universities are cultivating critical thinking. They are if anything the most dangerously closed-minded, ideologically-driven, anti-freedom of thought bastions currently in society. You buy into the trendy progressive liberal dogma or you pay the price. Any dissent is crushed, shouted down, or denounced as hate speech. It ain't Dead Poet's Society any longer, hasn't been for a long, long time. More like a very close cousin to plain old fascism. Where do you think the current crop of far, far left ideology is being incubated?

As far as the VALUE of critical thought in aviation, I cannot emphasize its importance enough. I'm currently working in Asia, where rote learning, memorization of data, and scoring well on tests if far more valued than the ability to solve problems. It isn't an indication of lower intelligence, far from it. Just a different set of priorities. And the Asian carriers have the accident records to show why doing things repetitively without giving thought to the underlying purpose just isn't a good fit for aviation. To their credit, they KNOW it's a problem and are trying to take steps to introduce more critical thinking into their processes. But it's an uphill battle against thousands of years of culture.

Mindlessly flipping switches and following procedures does not a good pilot make. Any more than passing exams for four years makes someone "smart". But unless you are fortunate enough to be mentored by an exceptional teacher or institution, the last place you're going to be encouraged to think for yourself these days is in a western university.

[wrightflyer]

Critical Thinking is exactly that.....critical for some reason. In aviation time is usually the critical factor typically associated with some sort of emergency. I can't speak to a degree as I only got through part of mine when i realized there was absolutely zero value provided to flying. Have a read of the following article and decide for yourself if a degree is helpful to your chosen profession. I argue you should be a student of past mistakes, so that you don't repeat them. You won't live long enough to repeat most of them.

http://aviationweek.com/business-aviati ... -decisions

[rookiepilot]

[youtube][/youtube]

This doesn't imply that no degree == no critical thinking, but the odds are higher that someone with a university degree has a 'higher level' of critical thinking.

This may have been true, I dunno, 50 years ago or so. And perhaps still is, in narrow specialities or isolated pockets, individual profs and so on.

But I categorically disagree that current liberal arts universities are cultivating critical thinking. They are if anything the most dangerously closed-minded, ideologically-driven, anti-freedom of thought bastions currently in society. You buy into the trendy progressive liberal dogma or you pay the price. Any dissent is crushed, shouted down, or denounced as hate speech. It ain't Dead Poet's Society any longer, hasn't been for a long, long time. More like a very close cousin to plain old fascism. Where do you think the current crop of far, far left ideology is being incubated?

As far as the VALUE of critical thought in aviation, I cannot emphasize its importance enough. I'm currently working in Asia, where rote learning, memorization of data, and scoring well on tests if far more valued than the ability to solve problems. It isn't an indication of lower intelligence, far from it. Just a different set of priorities. And the Asian carriers have the accident records to show why doing things repetitively without giving thought to the underlying purpose just isn't a good fit for aviation. To their credit, they KNOW it's a problem and are trying to take steps to introduce more critical thinking into their processes. But it's an uphill battle against thousands of years of culture.

Mindlessly flipping switches and following procedures does not a good pilot make. Any more than passing exams for four years makes someone "smart". But unless you are fortunate enough to be mentored by an exceptional teacher or institution, the last place you're going to be encouraged to think for yourself these days is in a western university.

THIS ----

[photofly]

Now I'm getting confused. (Must be my university education, or lack of it, that results in my muddle-headedness.)

Degrees are all about rote memorization and button pushing, which is NOT what is required to fly a transport aircraft, while flying a transport aircraft requires original thought and isn't suitable for cubicle drones?

So... people who don't have degrees make better airline pilots because people without degrees are more capable? And airlines who prefer educated pilots have it all backwards?

[complexintentions]

hahah You're like a textbook example of how education certainly doesn't confer the ability to understand even basic concepts, thanks for that!

[YYZSaabGuy]

In my industry Harvard grads summa cum laude are put to work in the mailroom at the big firms. Like the ramp in aviation. Cause you got the paper, but don't know jack.

That's mighty expensive mailroom help!

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... mbergdaily

"A new survey of the 20 best-paid graduate business schools found that the top 11 are all in the U.S. The Sloan School of Management at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology came out on top, with a median salary and bonus of $286,000, according to a survey from Emolument.com, a crowdsourced site for benchmarking salaries. Graduate programs at Harvard and the University of Chicago finished second and third."

The Harvard grads, according to the study, were #2 at US$ 255K/year. I kinda doubt any of 'em are doing a mailroom shift, either in your industry or elsewhere....

[complexintentions]

Uhhh...I highly doubt they were 1st-year graduates referred to in the survey. Much more likely executive-level, as it mentions "median salary and bonus" - "median" is neither the highest or lowest, and "bonus" is not paid to an entry-level employee. You do realize that CEO isn't an entry-level position, right?

Another logic fail.

[YYZSaabGuy]

Uhhh....speaking of fail, you do realize that I didn't comment on relative seniority in my previous post, right? I simply pointed out that those much-despised (by some people on this board) MBAs commanded pretty good median compensation. Again, I suspect nobody hires MBA grads to work in mailrooms, as claimed above. That should be pretty blindingly obvious, unless your basic reading skills got lost in the mail along with your white male privilege membership card.

Another stupid post.

[rookiepilot]

In my industry Harvard grads summa cum laude are put to work in the mailroom at the big firms. Like the ramp in aviation. Cause you got the paper, but don't know jack.

That's mighty expensive mailroom help!

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... mbergdaily

"A new survey of the 20 best-paid graduate business schools found that the top 11 are all in the U.S. The Sloan School of Management at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology came out on top, with a median salary and bonus of $286,000, according to a survey from Emolument.com, a crowdsourced site for benchmarking salaries. Graduate programs at Harvard and the University of Chicago finished second and third."

The Harvard grads, according to the study, were #2 at US$ 255K/year. I kinda doubt any of 'em are doing a mailroom shift, either in your industry or elsewhere....

Try reading this, and actually learning something about success in my industry.

Clearly a story you couldn't possibly understand.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sidney_Weinberg

[fish4life]

Ok so if we can take the tiny exception of Ivy League law and business degrees most pilots would be much better off if they got a trade and diploma than any degree. Plumbing / electrician/ HVAC/ anything along those lines can be done on the side for extra cash during the “lean” years and will also make a great back up if you lose a medical or layoff

[YYZSaabGuy]

Try reading this, and actually learning something about success in my industry.

Clearly a story you couldn't possibly understand.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sidney_Weinberg

Seriously? I’m not sure about the relevance of Mr. Weinberg, who sadly died nearly 49 years ago and isn’t widely regarded as having much current influence on “your industry”. But shall we look at CEOs still on the right side of the lawn? Below are the top 10 US banks and investment advisors (data sourced from Wikipedia and lightly edited):

1. Lloyd Blankfein, CEO Goldman Sachs: “Blankfein attended Harvard University for his undergraduate and law school studies before briefly entering private law practice.”

2. Jamie Dimon, CEO JPMorganChase: “He majored in psychology and economics at Tufts University [prior to] enrolling at Harvard Business School. He graduated in 1982, earning a Master of Business Administration degree as a Baker Scholar.”

3. Brian Moynihan, CEO Bank of America Merrill Lynch: “Moynihan graduated from Brown University in 1981, where he majored in history…[he subsequently] earned a Juris Doctor from the University of Notre Dame Law School…”

4. James Gorman, CEO Morgan Stanley: “In 1982 he joined law firm Phillips Fox and Masel (now DLA Piper) before heading to the United States to obtain a Master of Business Administration from Columbia Business School.”

5. Michael Corbat, CEO Citigroup: “Born in Bristol, Connecticut, Corbat graduated from Harvard University with a B.A. in economics…”

6. Ray Dalio, CEO Bridgewater Associates, $122 Bn AUM: “Dalio received a bachelor's degree in finance from Long Island University (CW Post) and an MBA from Harvard Business School.”

7. Cliff Asness, CEO AQR Capital Management, $70 Bn AUM: “He graduated from the Jerome Fisher Program in Management and Technology (M&T) with dual degrees from the University of Pennsylvania. Thereafter, he entered the finance PhD program at the University of Chicago and became the research assistant to Eugene Fama, an influential efficient market theorist and empiricist.”

8. Robert Mercer, CEO Renaissance Technologies, $42 Bn AUM: “He went on to get a bachelor's degree in physics and mathematics from the University of New Mexico….[and subsequently] earned a Ph.D. in computer science from the University of Illinois at Urbana–Champaign in 1972.” Renaissance Technologies, by the way, manages around US$ 42Bn in assets (mostly its own employees’ money), has generated annual returns of 40%/year after fees, and is cited has having around 300 employees, of whom 100 are Ph.Ds.

9. John Overdeck, one of the co-founders of Two Sigma Investments, $38.9 Bn AUM: “Overdeck received his bachelor’s degree in mathematics and master’s degree in statistics from Stanford University. In 1986, Overdeck was an International Mathematics Olympiad silver medalist.” (I couldn’t source background details for co-founders Mark Pickard and David Siegal).

10. David E. Shaw, CEO D.E. Shaw & Co., $34.7 Bn AUM: “Shaw received a bachelor's degree summa cum laude from the University of California, San Diego and obtained his PhD from Stanford University in 1980, then became a faculty member of the Department of Computer Science at Columbia University.”

I was unable to source data specific to prop trading, but it does seem that some pretty successful people in your industry have a solid educational background. Unfortunately, and despite diligent sleuthing, I was unable to find a single instance where any of them were started on the mailroom floor because they “had the paper but didn’t know jack”.

But then again, as much smarter people than either of us have pointed out, you don’t get rich doing what everybody else is doing, so perhaps you have decided to be a contrarian? Hiring highly-trained folks (whether finance types or pilots), denigrating their education (which you’ve admitted you were unable to match) and putting them into menial positions is unorthodox, but maybe it will work. Please keep us apprised of your progress: I'd love to see somebody open a can of whup-ass on those Ivy League pricks above!

[rookiepilot]

YYZ Saab,

Yes, in the finance world, often the grunts start at the bottom. Runners,clerks, mailroom.

No trading firm would give a Harvard, or any, grad an ounce of real responsibility right off the bat. That's a fact. Unless they are extremely stupid. Cause they don't know jack. MBA means nothing in my business. You think the term "trader" means anything? It's like "associate" for hardware store clerks.

And, BTW, none of the above guys, from my recollection offhand, saw the last financial crisis happen. They all said American housing couldn't fall in price on masse. Some were bailed out, too.

Try reading history.

Harvard grads -- yeah might get hired at banks. Might even eventually get to be CEO of a bank.

Dropouts, like this guy, actually often FOUND great companies.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Dell

Please stop,you are embarrassing yourself. Way the heck out your league.

[YYZSaabGuy]

Don't worry about my embarrassing myself, Rookie, or even what league you may or may not think I'm in, given that you know nothing of my background or qualifications. Fact is, I'd love to get into a battle of wits with you, but you're totally unarmed. And to paraphrase Lloyd Bentsen, you're certainly no Michael Dell.

That said, and to get this thread back to an aviation theme, I think reasonable people can agree that one doesn't need a degree to be a successful pilot. I think reasonable people would also agree that there's nothing wrong with educating oneself. And finally, for those who are upset about the educational requirements that some of the airlines impose - if you don't like it, don't apply. If the applicant pool dries up, the requirements will change.

[goldeneagle]

Yes, in the finance world, often the grunts start at the bottom. Runners,clerks, mailroom.
...
Please stop,you are embarrassing yourself. Way the heck out your league.

Modern outfits dont even have a mailroom these days, that's what computers are for.

As for the issue of who does, and who does not have a degree, there are exceptions to everything. Every school has folks going thru that are good apples, and bad apples, smart apples, and dumb apples. I saw it when I went, and it's still happening today.

the key to a conversation such as this one, first one has to define the goals, ie, where does one want to end up, then listen to those who are there. If your goal is to go out, fly the shift, then go drink beer afterwards, wait patently for 20 years for your seniority number to make a left seat available, then I would agree, no point in getting a degree. Your sights are set low enough there is no need for any education beyond a basic license and a checkbox list of experiences required to upgrade the license.

OTOH, if you have your sights set higher in the food chain than a job classification of 'line pilot', in the vast majority of cases, some form of post secondary education will eventually be a requirement for the next step up. There will always be exceptions, but they are the rare case, not the general case. In my experience over the last 10 years or so, most large corps have a minimum of a masters required to advance beyond a specific point in the ladder to the top.

Had I not gone to school in the early part of the career, and got well educated in a field I found interesting and challenging, I would not be where I am today. I'd be trapped in the job I wanted desperately in my younger years, only to realize once I got there, it wasn't the dream job I thought it was. Circumstances change, priorities change over time, and my work life changed because I was in a position to make that change. I always tell youngsters asking, go out, get the best education you can in a field you find interesting and challenging. that's something my wife and I both did in our younger years, and eventually it opened doors that would never open to somebody without that education.

In the end, it's all about your goals and objectives, where do you want to end up in life. If you want to be an expat flying big airplanes all over the world, would be wise to pay heed to the advice of complex and eric, they wear the 'been there, done that' t-shirt for the world of expat flyers. If you want to sit in a long seniority que waiting on your number to pop up at Air Canada, probably should pay more attention to what Rockie has to say here, he's got that t-shirt. If you want to end up as CEO of a medium size company, then would be wise to listen up to the person posting who holds that position. If you want to be upper management or executive suite of a large corp, should listen up to those posting here that hold those types of positions, altho I dont think we have any posters that meet the criteria for this one.

For me, my own personal revelation in this area happened a couple years ago, huge light bulb went off in my head on your subject of 'out of your league'. Was on the phone with a client who was insistent that my presence was required the following day for meetings out east. I pointed out to that client, from where I live, not physically possible to get flights arranged that would get me there on that schedule, so the options were to teleconference, or to postpone the meeting for a couple days. Client had a different idea, and around 5pm a big shiny corporate jet was sitting on the ramp at our local airport. It was a bit of a surreal experience for me watching the folks up front go thru pre-takeoff checks, and I realized, yup, now I have definitely arrived in the big leagues. I'm not the person sitting in the front preparing the jet for takeoff, I'm the person sitting in the back who it was sent to fetch. Had I not gone ahead and got an education when i was much younger, odds are pretty good, on that day I would have been the person sitting in the front flying the plane, not the person in the back. I did attend that meeting in DC at 11am the next day.

I am the CEO of a mid size corporation, which I founded. My wife is an executive in a large corporation, she runs one of it's smaller divisions and has only 450 employees under her. And you sir, are out of your league in this conversation.

[rookiepilot]

GE,

Good for you. I have run a very successful investment business, which I founded, for the last 20 years. I've seen them come, and many blow up in that time.

I'll leave it at that and let the ego contests belong to others. I'm sure some folks have been more successful than me, to be fair, but I'm certainly not complaining. That is not the point, anyway.

Suffice to say, though, I think I know just a little about business, and principles of success. You may choose to disagree.

And my point being, achievement of a degree in no way is the slightest indicator of success on its own. I stand by that statement, and the relevance of the exceedingly poor quality post secondary education available today, to a successful aviation career. That was the point of this thread.

If a degree is a specific tool for some to reach their career goals, that is fine.

Good day to you.

[GolfGolf]

I have run a very successful investment business, which I founded

You hiring?
Signed. Ex-pilot with a degree working in finance.

[rookiepilot]

Don't worry about my embarrassing myself, Rookie, or even what league you may or may not think I'm in, given that you know nothing of my background or qualifications. Fact is, I'd love to get into a battle of wits with you, but you're totally unarmed. And to paraphrase Lloyd Bentsen, you're certainly no Michael Dell.

YYZ Saab,

You seem as a habit, to troll my (and others who have achieved something substantial in life) posts. Yet no where can one find your career accomplishments. That's fine, I suppose.

As stated I founded my second company, yes as a broke college dropout, 20 years ago, and have been successful for most of that. A lot of hard work and hard knocks.

I've travelled to some 40 countries, with a ton of volunteer work and teaching in there. Along the way I became a pilot, earned my IFR / CPL.

I may not have an MBA, but I'll bet I can hold my own in any business discussion with most anyone. I would have loved to have finished mine, (and still might if it weren't for so many other satisfying projects I have going) but I ran out of money. Started first company instead.

I doubt very much if I'd continued my degree and racked up 50- 100 K in debt, I'd be where I am today. Hence I am not an unreserved fan of debt, for everyone.

No offense sir ---

[Zaibatsu]

Your level of success determines how much respect you deserve? Kim Kardashian is successful... lol. For all we know you just Forrest Gumped your way through life.

No... attitudes like that determine how much respect you deserve—which is none.