Most important Ruling in Canadian aviation history:

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greenwich
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Most important Ruling in Canadian aviation history:

Post by greenwich »

The manditory Canadian airline retirement age of 60 'may' be changing.

This could be a massive blow for pilots already working their way up at the airlines, as well as those pilots who aspire to join the airlines!

http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2010/11/0 ... ement.html

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Re: Most important Ruling in Canadian aviation history:

Post by . ._ »

Sounds good to me. As long as the pilots pass their medicals and recurrency rides, who cares? One way or another, everyone stops working, so I don't see an issue with older people "taking" the younger people's jobs. :roll:
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Re: Most important Ruling in Canadian aviation history:

Post by North Shore »

Shouldn't this be in the Air Canada section? Or, at least, if it's going to be in the general section, it should be re-titled: "Most important Ruling in Air Canada's aviation history." :roll:
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Re: Most important Ruling in Canadian aviation history:

Post by greenwich »

I guess it's up to the Moderators if they want to move this thread. To be very clear, this is only an Air Canada issue now, but the tribunal is looking at Mandatory Retirement in ALL Federally Regulated industries. Westjet and Jazz fit into this as well!

I have no issue with older pilots. As 'istp' said, pass your medicals and rides and you are good-to-go! If this turns into an industry-wide change (ie retiring at 65 instead of 60) however, it could mean that every airline pilot in Canada would have the right to retire at 65...or maybe even 70?!??!

This would mean huge changes in upgrades within airlines as well as hiring for airlines.

Btw, both pilots (65 and 67) have their jobs back as of an hour ago:

http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2010/11/0 ... ement.html
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arcticbeaches
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Re: Most important Ruling in Canadian aviation history:

Post by arcticbeaches »

This is terrible news for anyone aspiring to get to the airlines, I'm lucky to have made it already but expect it will impact upgrade times as mentioned above for those in the right seat. Given the divorce rate in aviation I see a lot of pilot's taking the extra years of work to fund past spouses :shock:
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ZBBYLW
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Re: Most important Ruling in Canadian aviation history:

Post by ZBBYLW »

Horrible news. Again ladies and gentleman the younger generation gets screwed. I hope these two turds enjoy life on top, earning top dollar and letting their shit fall down to those at the bottom of the pyramid.
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Re: Most important Ruling in Canadian aviation history:

Post by YWGGuy »

I hope all RPs that fly with these two remind them how their SELFISH decision is going to impact everyone else.

My major question are these two going to pay back all the pension money they earned before collecting their check for lost wages? I have a feeling they won't - must be nice to wait till you get on top then complain and watch everyone else suffer.

On a serious note, can we force these guys to retire? How about at 70? 75? or should we just let them fly to 100?
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Re: Most important Ruling in Canadian aviation history:

Post by Johnny#5 »

Nope, can't force them to retire at 100...that would be discriminatory and a violation of their human rights!

:rolleyes:
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Re: Most important Ruling in Canadian aviation history:

Post by Morav »

If they're healthy and fit to fly I don't see the problem here... I'd imagine the average life expectancy to go up in the future anyway, so why force guys to retire early??
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Re: Most important Ruling in Canadian aviation history:

Post by KK7 »

Morav wrote:If they're healthy and fit to fly I don't see the problem here... I'd imagine the average life expectancy to go up in the future anyway, so why force guys to retire early??
Because there aren't enough jobs for everyone, and not just in aviation. Historically retirement ages have gone up with life expectancy. Look this up in France, they just recently had a bunch of civil unrest due to the increase in retirement age.
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Re: Most important Ruling in Canadian aviation history:

Post by Liquid Charlie »

Ah the impatience of youth -- I don't see the clocks stopping for anyone -- one day you will be the "old fart" :smt040 -
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Re: Most important Ruling in Canadian aviation history:

Post by ZBBYLW »

Maybe when I am an 'old fart' I would not mind retiring at 60 and enjoy the life style that the people ahead of me have enjoyed.
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Last edited by ZBBYLW on Mon Nov 08, 2010 3:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Most important Ruling in Canadian aviation history:

Post by HavaJava »

Liquid Charlie wrote:Ah the impatience of youth -- I don't see the clocks stopping for anyone -- one day you will be the "old fart" :smt040 -
An old fart that is happily retired in the tropics
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ahramin
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Re: Most important Ruling in Canadian aviation history:

Post by ahramin »

I can't believe the stupid comments here. What possible argument can there be for mandatory retirement other than the selfish desires of those who want to move into the vacated jobs. How do you define wanting to force someone to stop working so you can have a job as anything other than selfish?

They aren't a safety risk. They are more qualified than the people replacing them. What possible right does anyone have to force them to stop working?

Obviously the current collective agreement which states that retirement is mandatory at age 60 no longer makes sense. Perhaps the high end of the pay scale needs to be renegotiated?
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Re: Most important Ruling in Canadian aviation history:

Post by KK7 »

ahramin wrote:I can't believe the stupid comments here. What possible argument can there be for mandatory retirement other than the selfish desires of those who want to move into the vacated jobs. How do you define wanting to force someone to stop working so you can have a job as anything other than selfish?
If wanting to have a job to be able to feed and support my family, while an older fellow is able to enjoy a full pension, is selfish then so be it... I'd think differently if they didn't have the income to retire with, but in most cases of retiring Air Canada pilots, I think they can live quite comfortably.
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teacher
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Re: Most important Ruling in Canadian aviation history:

Post by teacher »

I got a great deal for yah, we'll split the difference and I'll retire at 55 :mrgreen:

On a serious note I have to say, if you wanna stay and can pass everything than stay. Studies have shown that the longer you work past 60 the shorter you live afterward.
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Re: Most important Ruling in Canadian aviation history:

Post by C-FABH »

Brief summary of the ruling, as I the CBC doesn't have it word for word:
X. Order
[174] The Tribunal orders as follows:
1) The respondents are to cease applying to the complainants, s.5.1 of the Air Canada Pilots Pension Plan and the corresponding provisions of the collective agreement Plan;
2) The complainants are to be reinstated to employment as pilots with Air Canada as of the date of this decision on condition that they have a valid pilot licence, a valid medical certificate showing that they are fit to fly a commercial aircraft under the applicable Transport Canada medical standards and a current instrument flight rating;
3) Upon reinstatement, the complainants shall be enrolled in the next available training course for the equipment that they are entitled to fly according to their seniority. Upon the successful completion of their training, they shall be scheduled for flying at the next opportunity for monthly bidding and placed on the pilot position list;
4) Upon reinstatement, Vilven is to hold seniority number 751 and Kelly, seniority number 5 on the pilots' seniority list;
5) Upon reinstatement, the complainants are to receive the wages and benefits of an active employee including continual accrual of pension benefits on the same terms and conditions as before their retirement;
6) The complainants are to be compensated by the respondents for lost income for the period from September 1, 2009 to the date of their reinstatement as active employees. The compensation is to be calculated on the basis of the monthly salary for the position of 81 hours of flying per month, averaged at half-day, half-night rates of pay, plus overseas premium pay for 71 hours. The compensation shall include any profit sharing/bonus paid in that period. Vilven shall be compensated at the salary rate of an A340 FO and Kelly at the salary rate of a B777 Captain until April 30, 2010 and thereafter at the salary rate of a B777 FO.
7) The compensation for lost wages shall be net of the amounts of the pension paid to the complainants from September 1, 2009 to the date of their reinstatement.
8 ) The respondents are to pay interest on the net amount of the compensation from September 1, 2009 until the compensation is paid. The amount of the interest shall be calculated on the basis set out by Ms. Leslie in her expert report (Exhibit AC-13, as am. by AC-13A) and as agreed with by the complainants.
9) Air Canada is to pay fifty per cent and ACPA is to pay fifty per cent of the net compensation and profit sharing/bonus and the interest payable.
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Re: Most important Ruling in Canadian aviation history:

Post by The Old Fogducker »

As someone who wanted airlines so bad I could have cried myself to sleep when I turned 30, knowing the liklihood of my being hired had just gone to astronomical odds against, I see it as a good thing for those aspiring to airlines.

If you'll excuse me for saying ... "back in the day" if you weren't hired by AC or CP before your 30th birthday, you were never ... ever going to fly sked jet service in Canada.

Once the age discrimination in the initial hire was dealt with, now its taken care of on the top end too.

That means someone "elderly" may still get a chance to be hired if the ceiling of age 60 is removed, and still have a useful career length.

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Re: Most important Ruling in Canadian aviation history:

Post by Johnny#5 »

good point.
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Re: Most important Ruling in Canadian aviation history:

Post by Canoehead »

teacher wrote:I got a great deal for yah, we'll split the difference and I'll retire at 55 :mrgreen:

On a serious note I have to say, if you wanna stay and can pass everything than stay. Studies have shown that the longer you work past 60 the shorter you live afterward.
Bang on Teacher. I'd be interested in the statistics on health issues involving pilots over age 60, compared to non-aviators. I'm specifically referring to pilots flying in conditions of long exposure to radiation (like these 2 guys would like to do). For example, if working an extra 5 years will shorten your life by 15 years, what is the advantage?
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Re: Most important Ruling in Canadian aviation history:

Post by mike53 »

It's easy when your 25 to say when I turn 60 I'll retire but until you go through the next 35 years you have no idea how you will react at age 60.Hate your job,love your job married late and still have 3 kids to put through university?So many variables .As I said easy to say you would retire but until you get there you can't say with certainty what you will do.
When your 25 you see 60 as old.I,m 57 and I felt the same way when I was 25 now I see 60 in a whole new light.Trust me you will also.
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Re: Most important Ruling in Canadian aviation history:

Post by KK7 »

I don't think people see the big picture...

I agree, it sucks to be forced to retire at 60, and in principle, I don't agree with it. But the problem is, this is the system that was set up, and you just can't throw it out overnight.

First of all, these guys have made it to where they are in their career thanks to people retiring in front of them. They must have been "selfish" too to aspire to better themselves and get to the very top of their chosen industry, and make better lives for themselves. I hate unions, but the fact is they are members of a union that is supposed to be looking out for their best interests. The majority of their members have voted at some point or another to set a mandatory retirement age of 60 years old in exchange for a nice fat pension. The two pilots in question in this article are obviously not newbies at Air Canada, they're flying the company's biggest iron... they've earned their full pension and they've been there for a while.

So fine, something needs to be done about the retirement age of 60, but you can't just snap your fingers and make it disappear overnight. You have to realize that one person retiring doesn't just benefit one "selfish" individual circling like a vulture for their seat. It allows a whole chain of people to move up a notch in the industry, right down to the guy working the dock hoping to get his/her chance to finally fly that 180 on floats, or the new Class 4 instructor hunting for that first job. One person retiring ends up benefiting possibly a dozen people in the industry.

Suddenly eliminating the mandatory retirement age means that swaths of pilots who would normally be retiring are likely to keep working for several more years... maybe 5, maybe 10. That puts the entire job market into a slump for a decade. Have a child or a nephew/niece who aspires to be a pilot like you? Forget about it for the next decade, tell them to find another interest. I hope everyone is happy where they are now, because they won't be going anywhere for long long time.

Okay, so this is a problem, lets fix it in a smart way that doesn't devastate the entire industry. Increase the retirement age a couple of years, let the industry stabilize. Increase it another couple of years, stabilize... and so on until you get to the point where you can eliminate it altogether. Fact is, Air Canada is so huge that if affects everyone, even those of us who have no interest to ever work there.
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Re: Most important Ruling in Canadian aviation history:

Post by skat0r »

god damnit
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Re: Most important Ruling in Canadian aviation history:

Post by modi13 »

I'm all for more spots opening with the airlines, but how many posters' tones will change once they reach that level and don't want to be forced to leave? It's hypocritical to criticize these pilots for being selfish when you just want their jobs. If you spend 20 years working to get to your desired position, why would you want to give it up a decade or so later?
KK7 wrote:Because there aren't enough jobs for everyone, and not just in aviation. Historically retirement ages have gone up with life expectancy. Look this up in France, they just recently had a bunch of civil unrest due to the increase in retirement age.
Then how about we make the retirement age 40? Or 30? That would make lots of jobs for the low-timers.
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Re: Most important Ruling in Canadian aviation history:

Post by RB-211 »

All you whining broken records who keep spouting off about this subject are in serious need of a reality check. Pilots WORLWIDE are now working to 65. Why should Canada or the ‘Chosen Ones’ at AC be any different? Ask any Lufthansa, British Airways or American Airlines pilot how this has changed their career prospects and the answer is simple. It is the way it is, and they will then laugh at you for feeling sorry for yourselves.

Get a bloody grip. Spend your energy and money fighting management and not one another.

RANT OVER
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