saying no to bad pay

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Tim
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saying no to bad pay

Post by Tim »

just wanted to post a quick note about a good buddy of mine who turned down an f/o job on a 1900 for an eastern canada operator. it would have punched his ticket out of instructing. the pay was $27500, which he thought was unreasonably low considering he has an ATPL and good bit of multi PIC/IFR experience. i know they probably had someone on the phone to take the job at that pay before he was even able to ask himself if he did the right thing, but guys like this make things better for the rest of us.

i wanted to give him some credit and hope it would inspire some others to do the same as him.
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ZBBYLW
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Re: saying no to bad pay

Post by ZBBYLW »

Buy your friend a beer. Thank him for us. People like him are who will be responsible for getting our profession back on track.
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Stinky
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Re: saying no to bad pay

Post by Stinky »

People like him will just end up working in another field and the company will just call the next guy on the long list of people beating down the door to work for that pay.
It sucks but most of these small operators aren't rolling in cash so it's simple economics, they can't afford to pay much more and even if they could they wouldn't need to.
I don't agree with paying for PPC's or working for free, but $27,500 for 1 or 2 years isn't the end of the world if it gets you to a better paying job down the road.
You could work at Tim Hortons for that pay but where will you be in 5 years.
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3=47
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Re: saying no to bad pay

Post by 3=47 »

stinky, your an idiot

and you might smell, but I cant confirm that
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trey kule
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Re: saying no to bad pay

Post by trey kule »

You know Stinky, I dont know about your smell either, but he pretty much got the rest right.

The someone else will take it is the rational of the morally bankrupt. So some loser is willing to whore themselves out...that makes it right for me to do it? Well then, I know people who will bust minimums, fly overgross, and will refraim from putting snags if asked...will you agree to do that......because there are others who will waiting for the job.

I admire someone who stood up and said no...buy him a few beers. I would offer to but I just took this flying job, and well, it doesnt pay much.(inserted smiley face if I knew how)
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double-j
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Re: saying no to bad pay

Post by double-j »

And reward yourselves by taking a nice vacation, but don't forget to drive two hours to buffalo/grand forks/bellingham to save a couple bucks!
:roll:
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angry inch
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Re: saying no to bad pay

Post by angry inch »

Tim, I have had to wrestle with making the same decision a couple times in the last year. Now I hold my head high working part time in the construction industry. However, I am fortunate enough to have some well paid seasonal flying opportunities. Just have to make it through winter... Good luck to your buddy.
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Tim
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Re: saying no to bad pay

Post by Tim »

angry inch wrote:Tim, I have had to wrestle with making the same decision a couple times in the last year. Now I hold my head high working part time in the construction industry. However, I am fortunate enough to have some well paid seasonal flying opportunities. Just have to make it through winter... Good luck to your buddy.
it is a tough decision. i wouldn't have thought any less of him if he had taken the job. you have to weigh the pros and cons then do what you think is best for you.
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Tim
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Re: saying no to bad pay

Post by Tim »

Stinky wrote:People like him will just end up working in another field and the company will just call the next guy on the long list of people beating down the door to work for that pay.
It sucks but most of these small operators aren't rolling in cash so it's simple economics, they can't afford to pay much more and even if they could they wouldn't need to.
I don't agree with paying for PPC's or working for free, but $27,500 for 1 or 2 years isn't the end of the world if it gets you to a better paying job down the road.
You could work at Tim Hortons for that pay but where will you be in 5 years.

it's not a 'small' operator. they are doing well as a company. and if you have to lowball your employees to make money as a company than you need to charge more...
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Stinky
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Re: saying no to bad pay

Post by Stinky »

The someone else will take it is the rational of the morally bankrupt. So some loser is willing to whore themselves out...that makes it right for me to do it? Well then, I know people who will bust minimums, fly overgross, and will refraim from putting snags if asked...will you agree to do that......because there are others who will waiting for the job.
First off, how can you compare working for a low wage to doing something illegal or unsafe.

Secondly, since when is working for $27500 whoring yourself out. Paying for a PPC or working for free is whoring yourself out.
I would be willing to bet that most flight instructors are making far less than that. Many pilots starting out work for peanuts in the summer up north, load bags and cut grass only to collect EI or work minimum wage jobs in the winter.

I don't know the specifics of other professions but I'm pretty sure Doctors, Lawyers and other professionals started out at pretty crappy payscales too.

I'm not suggesting breaking laws, or doing anything morally wrong, if your'e offered a job and can survive on the wage and it will lead to bigger and better things because of the experience you gain, go for it.
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trey kule
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Re: saying no to bad pay

Post by trey kule »

How can I compare it. Because after decades in the business I have found that those who will do one of these, will pretty much do tham all. Once you establish what kind of person you are, its pretty much all negotiation afterwards.

As to the salary...for a 1900 pilot?

I know I am not going to change your mind, or any of the others who think the same as you.

But you should be thanking the pilot who said no....they are sacrificing to pave the way for those of you who would stab your brother in the back to get ahead.

BTW...over the years , I have noticed that there is almost a 100% direct correlation between the compensation a company pays pilots and their success as a company.. Companies like Sonic Blue etc. were not the high wage payers. And by compensation I mean the totatl package. Honest scheduling. Days off. Pay on time, as well as decent pay.
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Stinky
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Re: saying no to bad pay

Post by Stinky »

How can I compare it. Because after decades in the business I have found that those who will do one of these, will pretty much do tham all. Once you establish what kind of person you are, its pretty much all negotiation afterwards.
That statement is total BS.

If an employer presents you with an offer you look at your situation and see if it works for you. Many guys are willing and able to take a bit of a hit for a year or so.

I'm trying to think of a single pilot I know that hasn't at some point worked for a low wage and I can't think of anybody. You're either forgetting where you came from or you were a one in a million lucky bastard.

I myself instructed for typical instructor wages and also worked as an F/O on guess what, a 1900. I started at only a little more than what this guy was offered but fortunately went captain in under a year.

I don't bust minimums, fly overgross, pay for PPC's and definitely wouldn't stab my fellow pilot in the back. If I compare my career path to the thousands of other commercial pilots in this country, it's pretty much a carbon copy.
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HavaJava
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Re: saying no to bad pay

Post by HavaJava »

If someone were unemployed with no other job prospects on the horizon, then how could you blame them for taking a low paying job. On the other hand...I would have no loyalty to the low-paying employer if a better opportunity came along.
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Last edited by HavaJava on Mon Nov 22, 2010 10:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

Fish N. Chips
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Re: saying no to bad pay

Post by Fish N. Chips »

Sure if everyone (all pilots) refused to work for low wages, the companies would have to turn around and pay us all pretty wages, it would be a glorious time. But remember this is real life and 27,500 is not great although it is more than some companies pay in western canada i.e. Carson, Central Mtn. air, and many others. The cost of living on the east coast is much less and as sticky said "it's more the instructor pay". Maybe this guy did the right thing (standing up for his self worth), yet I can only think that this guy is kicking himself every time he goes to work and signs out a student only to not get paid for it, when he could be flying a 1900. I wonder what some guys think there first job will be like, $50 000 flying a jet in the town of their choice? Sure don't work for nothing....but f/o on a 1900 for 27 500 on the east coast not the end of the world...its your first job remember!
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Re: saying no to bad pay

Post by Nordo »

It begs the question... What would be considered good pay for a job on said 1900 as an F/O?? What point dose one say....hmmmm...Ill take it!! Is there an exact dollar amount that would work?? I took an F/O job for 38,000. Did I do ok??

I would like to buy this guy a beer too; but mostly because he is starting a career in Aviation. I appreciate what you think he is trying to do, but I am also a realist and have no delusions that this little incident (no matter how noble) changed anything in the world of pay scales. It would take literaly hundreds to turn the job down AT THE SAME TIME.....just to open one operators wallet. Im afraid to change a whole industry......many many more.
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Re: saying no to bad pay

Post by rooster »

Hmm. $27,500 is fairly low for a 1900 f/o, even I'll admit. However, you're hailing this guy who turned this job down as a sort of hero, but many of you are the same guys that want to get to Air Canada some day. They pay only $37,500 for right seat on an Embraer or 330/767/777 RP. If $27,500 is so low that an instructor of all people is turning the job down, then what do you call a guy who's accepting only $10K more to fly an airplane that is exponentially more significant that a commuter prop? Sure the pay gets good down the road, but you start at a ridiculously low salary, and yet I hear no one turning this gig down.

This instructor should note that the 1900 job, though low pay, is a stepping stone, and a machine like that is always an advantage on any resume. With his PIC time and ATPL, it probably wouldn't be long to an upgrade, which looks even better on the resume. So I don't think I can jump on the wagon with you fellas on this one. If the pay was his reason to turn the job down, then I think he's more foolish than heroic.

Flame away on this one...a part of all of you knows I'm right.
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xTally
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Re: saying no to bad pay

Post by xTally »

It would be great to see a pilot's starting pay more be 'in line' with the rest of the working world. In my opinion this is sadly unlikely to happen in aviation.

Although I don't think we are perhaps as higly trained as doctors and rocket scientists, our training and working conditions are not a joke either. Flight training can cost up to the same as a university education and sometimes even the same amout of time. After you've spent 2 to 3 years training, it can still take people upwards of 2 to 3 years to make it even to a 703/704 op on the right seat (I spent about 3 years training and 2 years instructing)! Add to this the level of responsibility (which isn't crazy but again not trivial at the level of a copilot) to operate safely in different weather with airplanes that may have mechanical problems....

5 years of hardship to get an 'established' or 'steady' job that pays 24k-29k? Pretty sad.

Unfortunately we are our own worst enemies it seems. The saying "there's always someone willing to do your job for less" seems to ring true. Throw in the fact the the consumer wants the cheapest air travel possible, and that execs want the highest profit possible and you have recipe for a Walmart wage.

Some food for thought.... salaries of city bus drivers.. (Not the same industry but similar in role). Normal starting salaries start at around 50k! I know the comparison isn't 100% But it shows that flightcrew (at least on the lower end) aren't even in the ballpark!

http://urbantoronto.ca/showthread.php?8 ... bucks-list
http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blog ... -says.aspx
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pilotidentity
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Re: saying no to bad pay

Post by pilotidentity »

Tim,

Thanks to your buddy from me and the rest of the pilots who want to EARN a living.

It does make a difference - they end up hiring someone of less quality and get what they pay for.
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davesok
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Re: saying no to bad pay

Post by davesok »

All this banter. Look if you want to fly planes you do what ever is need to get the experience required to move to the level of aviation that is your goal. Work for nothing if you have to. Pilots with nothing or little to offer the market place need to shop at their level of experience. As someone said, a salary one person can handle may be undoable for another. Congratulating one for turning down what appears to be low paying? Sounds like a instructor that's afraid to go north, sling freight and fuel airplanes to get established. Sounds like someone needs to experience flight outside the circuit in the right seat.

Congrad's to the guy that takes that $27,000/yr job 5 years from now he will be years ahead of the instructor critics. That's what most of us did.

37 years 18,000 hrs.
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ditar
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Re: saying no to bad pay

Post by ditar »

rooster wrote:Hmm. $27,500 is fairly low for a 1900 f/o, even I'll admit. However, you're hailing this guy who turned this job down as a sort of hero, but many of you are the same guys that want to get to Air Canada some day. They pay only $37,500 for right seat on an Embraer or 330/767/777 RP. If $27,500 is so low that an instructor of all people is turning the job down, then what do you call a guy who's accepting only $10K more to fly an airplane that is exponentially more significant that a commuter prop? Sure the pay gets good down the road, but you start at a ridiculously low salary, and yet I hear no one turning this gig down.
I was thinking the same thing.
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yycflyguy
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Re: saying no to bad pay

Post by yycflyguy »

ditar wrote:
rooster wrote:Hmm. $27,500 is fairly low for a 1900 f/o, even I'll admit. However, you're hailing this guy who turned this job down as a sort of hero, but many of you are the same guys that want to get to Air Canada some day. They pay only $37,500 for right seat on an Embraer or 330/767/777 RP. If $27,500 is so low that an instructor of all people is turning the job down, then what do you call a guy who's accepting only $10K more to fly an airplane that is exponentially more significant that a commuter prop? Sure the pay gets good down the road, but you start at a ridiculously low salary, and yet I hear no one turning this gig down.
I was thinking the same thing.
Flat pay at AC is en embarrassment. We are in the middle of negotiations now and that is one of the big ticket items. Making the first 2 years of flat pay better. $37.9k year one, $42k year two. I personally will vote a big, fat NO if it is not addressed.

FYI - I know of a few people that were offered simultaneous offers at AC and elsewhere. They turned down AC and went elsewhere. It DOES happen. I have heard stories of guys getting an offer and turning it down because their current situation pays better, with better conditions and couldn't subject a family of the AC "offer". In a unionized workforce the pressure to raise a new hire's pay falls within the union and not the company. Therefor it is AC pilots who are screwing the new hires to assure their position doesn't take a cut to finance it.

It is different at the 703/704 level where there is no union representation. It is an agreement between 2 party's with the employer holding all the cards. Pilot X won't do it? There are probably 50 other guys with the same experience/credentials that will... and yes, you do get what you pay for.

How do you prevent this downward spiral that we have been caught in for the past 15 years?

College of Professional Pilots.
http://www.collegeofpilots.ca/
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Stinky
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Re: saying no to bad pay

Post by Stinky »

Unfortunately the statement "you get what you pay for" doesn't really apply in this case, or most pilot jobs for that matter.

It's all supply and demand. If there were lots of 1900 jobs out there and most companies payed 35k and one company lowballed and payed 25k that would be the case. The problem is they all pay crap and they have lots of people to choose from so the employer is in a win win situation, great pool of applicants at rock bottom prices.
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yycflyguy
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Re: saying no to bad pay

Post by yycflyguy »

Right you are. I believe we are saying the same thing.
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fish4life
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Re: saying no to bad pay

Post by fish4life »

As others said $27 500 seems decent for a starting FO position a lot of starting jobs out there pay much worse, what should also be considered is schedule and pressures at the job because if its an ok schedule and no pressures to break the rules seems like an above average position
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JohnnyHotRocks
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Re: saying no to bad pay

Post by JohnnyHotRocks »

I turned down the AC interview about 4 years ago because the pay is absolutely rediculous....although I am proud of doing it, it seems that they didn't get the point...they still have the same shitty pay :cry:
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