Question for Porter folks

[El Comat]

I'm sitting here in YSB at the boarding gate waiting to commute to yyz. The vis is 1/4sm and the RVR is 1800' for RWY 22. YSB has the 1/2sm rule for taxiing, yet your flight managed to land and taxi in (vis and RVR have been down for over 90 minutes). The agent tells me that she knows of no departure delay, and they've now started to board the flight. Do you guys have some sort of Ops Spec that allows you to go below YSB's vis limits?

EC

[ILS26_Steep]

Yes. It's called an Approach Ban and we have an OP's Spec to land with the RVR you stated, look it up in the CAP GEN, your answers are all there.

[sakism]

He's asking about RVOP/LVOP, not approach ban. If all his information is correct, I'm not sure how it's being done either.

[El Comat]

The key word is APPROACH ban. We have that at Jazz as well. How do you get around the fact that YSB does not allow ground movements when the vis is less than 1/2sm (or 2600 RVR)?

EC

[El Comat]

He's asking about RVOP/LVOP, not approach ban. If all his information is correct, I'm not sure how it's being done either.

Precisely.

[Mr. X]

Another bitter Jazz pilot trying to get someone else in trouble. Stay classy Jazzers.

These are the same people complaining that Porter doesn't answer their phone fast enough for them to book a free flight.

[aileron]

Outside of the Ops Spec see also the following FAQ from TC: R/LVOP Frequent Qs

[El Comat]

Another bitter Jazz pilot trying to get someone else in trouble. Stay classy Jazzers.

These are the same people complaining that Porter doesn't answer their phone fast enough for them to book a free flight.

Yes, I am slightly bitter. I watched Porter blatantly break the CARs (barring some weird Ops Spec that I've never heard of), and in the process they embittered even more Air Canada customers (who indirectly put food on my table). All through the boarding gate I heard people muttering things like "if Porter can go, why can't Air Canada?" and "well there's another reason to fly Porter!"

If you can offer a better product at a better price, then you deserve the extra business and success that goes with it. However, if you're breaking the CARs to get people to choose you, then that's very low and unprofessional. I'd hate to think that we're losing customers because we follow the rules. I hope that's not the case. Competition is cut-throat enough in this industry without nonsense like this. Let's at least, as pilots, all follow the CARs and let our managment worry about the competition.

You stay classy, too.

[GSPY]

It has been posted a few times in the gen forum but you are allowed to taxi in after landing if the vis is below the RVOP/LVOP limits. As for them taxiing out and leaving again while the vis was that low, I'm pretty sure that's not legal. It's sad that the people who write you up (Navcan) don't know the rules. If they do, and they cleared you to taxi and take-off, then they should be the ones getting written up.

[ILS26_Steep]

Than I stand corrected!!! Thank you.

[2.5milefinal]

Nicely put El Comat
I would also like know if there is some way around the 1/2 vis taxi rule.

Cap Gen
GENERAL -
CARS 602.96 requires that before taking off from, landing at or other wise operating an aircraft at an aerodrome...and so on
As far as I understand it, you need 1/2 mile vis to operate at the YSB aerodrome. It does not matter what op-spec you have for landing or takeoff.
Please correct me if I am wrong.

[Maynard]

I watched a jet taxi out and take off in YKF at 1/8sm and they do NOT have the LVOP in use there. Curious, I asked ATC when we left how they managed that, she said that anything below limits of the airport gets a cador, and then transport looks into, looks at the company ops specs and it either goes in the trash, or gets dealt with. As far as I understood, and seems to be a grey area, was that if the airport isn't approved for 1/4sm as stated for the runway in the CFS, then you cannot legally taxi. I was told you can taxi clear of the runway but then have to sit on the taxiway until the weather picked up to 1/2sm. But I may be misinformed somewhere......

[mbav8r]

ILSsteep, you need a better understanding of the rules, what you posted is against them and if you operate that way you are on borrowed time before you get you letter from T.C. We also have op specs for low vis at Jazz 600 rvr. The rvop/lvop is an airport reg and if they don't have a plan in place you have to use the most restrictive. A good example is YWG, they have catII for 36 and rvop 1/8th mile, but to use 31 you need 1/2 mile. If you pass the FAF and vis drops below 1/2 you can continue to land and taxi in.
Your example of after you land the vis drops you stop were you are is a complete lack of understanding and frankly I hope you're not the captain. If you don't understand it maybe you should call Transport for clarification, but what was outlined as having occured at YSB is an infraction and should be treated as such. I hope it is being investigated, that way you'll have the clarification needed.
BTW it's not navcans responsibility for you to operate under the rules, you may ask and they may grant you permission to taxi while filling out the cadors...

[Maynard]

If you have the OP's spec to conduct 1200RVR take-offs your legal to taxi to the runway to conduct the 1200RVR take off permitted the runway is certified for it! Either Centreline lighting or centre line markings and high intensity runway lighting! Plus a good ole T/O ALT.

No one at Porter is breaking the CAR's. It's your lack of understanding with the rules!!

YSB is not certified for anything below 1/2sm......?????

[sakism]

Each runway has a minimum visibility. 1/2 SM is the default, lower visibility limits will be listed in the runway section of the CFS.

If the visibility is not equal to the minimum you are not allowed to continue an approach past the FAF, or begin taxiing for the purpose of taking off.

If you have passed the FAF inbound when the visibility drops below limits, you are allowed to land and taxi.
If you have started taxiing for take-off when the visibility drops you may continue.

There are other details, but this is the gist of the rules.

These rules are absolutely independent of approach ban rules and reduced visibility takeoff rules.

[AOA]

Just wanted to get the conversation back to the "outs" provided.

17. What happens if the visibility drops below the aerodrome operating visibility after the aircraft has started to taxi or is taxiing after landing?

If the visibility drops below the aerodrome operating visibility after an aircraft has commenced taxi for take-off or after landing, the aircraft may continue to taxi.

Need to get more historical data on the METARs but by the sounds of things they probably missed the LVOP/RVOP piece.

Perhaps it's best to include these items in your approach briefing.. I've got to start doing the same

[4Stroke]

[goingmach_1]

It is a bit confusing for most of us. Don't have all the answers, but, I do know that the taxi thing is airport specific. It has to do with C.F.R. stuff, taxi way distance from active runways and other what have you's.

So in a nut shell as long as the aircraft is being operated in its enviorment, C.A.R.'s 604, 704, or 705 (Op Spec) or whatever, then certain criteria applies. The approach ban for instance. However once on the ground then other airport operating rules apply. Don't know where to find that but I just ask for taxi and I guess the Chief Pilot gets a nasty gram and we all get a memo somewhere along the line.

I am pretty sure A.T.C. has to give you taxi clearance if you request it. They might discourage it, but can't deny it. They will record it for sure and off to enforcement for review, as they are Nav Canada not Transport Canada.

Anyway, I have only been doing this 30 plus years and its getting stupid're instead of better. My point of view is they are lawyer'ing it up because of some past crash's.

News flash: "airplanes crash". Your not going to stop that for happening. Nor are you going to stop car crashes, motorcylce crashes, boats, mopeds, lawn mowers, bicycle, tri-cycle, trains or ships.

You can make rules to midigate the risk, but not the chance of it happening. If thats the aim, then "nobody moves, nobody gets hurt."

End of rant!

[teacher]

No "Ops Spec" can make airport specific minimums go away, sorry Porter dudes. Unless your ops spec installs taxi way centreline lights and gets the TC approval all in the time it takes you to shoot an approach the minimum taxi vis was busted. It's happened to me a few times in YSB and YEG to be stuck while we waited for fog to lift.

[~Hollywood~]

With a 1/4SM and 1800RVR at YSB there is no way that plane should of:

A) Landed, or;
B) Taken Off

The ILS 22 has published minimums of RVR2600 or 1/2SM, so if Porter has the OP's Spec, which they do, and the runway is equiped with High Intensity Centerline Lighting, which it is, that allows them to go to 50% of the published minimums. The minimums would now be RVR1200 or 1/4SM, which are lower than actuals at the time. But here is where people get confused....these minimums still need to be higher than the airport operating minimums which are RV2600 or 1/2SM as found in the CFS or Jepp plates as I use. The only way that plane could of legally landed and taxied into the gate is if they started the approach and it was RVR2600 or above, then passed the FAF and then went to the 1800RVR, they could have landed and went into the gate.

Now leaving YSB, as stated above, the airport operating minimums at YSB are RVR2600 or 1/2SM. An RVR report always takes precedence over a runway visiblity report. So the RVR for Runway 22 needs to be 2600 or above to start to taxi for the purpose of taking off. If not, then it's a no go. I wasn't there, so I don't know the actual METAR's at the time or if the RVR's were fluctuating above and below 2600. But according to what El Comat was saying, this is a direct violation of the CAR's.

ILS26_Steep wrote:If you have authorization to conduct an approach to 1/4 mile or 1200RVR with OP's spec 019, 303 or 503 you meet taxing restrictions

That is where you are wrong. The airport needs to be approved for operations for those minimums, which YSB is not. Not every airport is. If it does not, then the OP's Spec to that specific airport is useless.

Another airport that is similar to this is CYZR (Sarnia), where airport operating minimums are also RVR2600 or 1/2SM. Since it does not have High Intensity Centerline Lighting it can only go to 75% of the RVR2600 or 1/2SM for the ILS 32, which would now be 1600RVR or 3/8SM. But since that is lower than the operaing minimums you cannot proceed past the FAF until you get your RVR2600 or 1/2SM, as that is the minimums for airport operatons.