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BadgerGirl
PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 6:12 pm 
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No worries.
In the tarantula world, that thread would be: Should I hybridize my Brachypelma smithi with my emilia? I totally get it, I modded a forum once, lol.

However, I am going to be interviewing the Sask. government later today. Is there anything I should be aware of before I do, in reference to safety issues?


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ipilot54
PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 7:53 pm 
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You will not get too much reliable and unbiased information in AvCanada and we can already see. CAT Driver put it in simple terms for you and has “been there”. I have too.

One of the best resources for this would be the Flight Safety Foundation. http://flightsafety.org/
Two crew vs. one; there is no argument. I see that some say one is fine. My guess is that they haven't been around much but most of the folks in “here” just want to “stir the pot” and really do not contribute information that is factual or worthwhile. They just give opinions.

I am sure you already have that figured out though!


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Prairie Chicken
PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 8:17 pm 
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Well put Cat.

You can safely fly a B200 (and many other high-performance a/c) single pilot until some component fails, or until the weather gets really dicy, or until you get rushed, or fatigued, or sick, or until (insert any number of other problems here). Heck, even spilling your coffee on the consul can cause an emergency! When things do go south, it is a great deal safer to have a second pilot to assist with the work load, decision making, radio work, passenger evacuation, etc., etc., etc.. Statistics have confirmed this time after time. That's why many insurance companies often insist on two-crew operations. It's also a big reason large aircraft utilize two (or more) crew. And then of course some a/c are only certified for flight with two crew.


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BadgerGirl
PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 8:37 pm 
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I wonder who the insurance carrier is for Saskatchewan'a air ambulance service.
Would be interesting to know if any formal suggestions were made by some third party to beef up the cockpit...

Thanks all. I'm still on it.


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ipilot54
PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 9:17 pm 
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Most governments do not buy insurance but rather they "self insure". You can do that if you have lots of money. :D Not sure about Saskatchewan. It also depends: is the aircraft actually "government owned" in your province or is it contracted. I thought it was government owned but I do not know that as a fact.


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Cat Driver
PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 10:29 pm 
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To put this subject in a more clear context here is my position.

I personally would not fly for any company or government single pilot in that line of work and type of airplane.....period.


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BadgerGirl
PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 10:34 pm 
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Cat Driver wrote:
To put this subject in a more clear context here is my position.

I personally would not fly for any company or government single pilot in that line of work and type of airplane.....period.


Thank you. I like positions in clear context. Sets a framework for reason.


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ipilot54
PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 10:36 pm 
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Cat, I agree 100%.

One more point as well, the patient/passenger has no idea of the extra risk that they are subjecting themselves to.


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Cat Driver
PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 10:40 pm 
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Quote:
Thank you. I like positions in clear context. Sets a framework for reason.


And I feel confident enough in my opinion that I post using my real name. :mrgreen:

Chuck Ellsworth.


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Prairie Chicken
PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 11:04 pm 
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Quote:
I personally would not fly for any company or government single pilot in that line of work and type of airplane.....period.

Well stated Cat, again. I did fly that type of a/c with a 2nd pilot, and no, I would not fly it single pilot. Period.


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turbo-prop
PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 11:39 pm 
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So flying two crew with a 200hr copilot is safer? So said copilot is flying, its 3am shooting an approach to minimums and all of a sudden he/she decides to flair a little early or a little late. Your telling me as "the experienced captain" you will be able to get control of the situation in time? At least single pilot with experience you will have total control of the aircraft. And do you think that patient/passenger is aware of all the risks associated? And yes I have been around for a while and have flown 2 crew and single pilot. Be prepared. In medevacs, at the start of your shift you will check the weather, notams, airplane. Airplane is now ready to go. If weather was bad yes you will keep an eye on it. Yes it probably would be nice to ave the second crew member to help load and unload but i think on either end they will have the help (driver,EMT,Paramedic,nurse). It is very do able. The bigger point here is that a community that wants the support of an air ambulance to be able to come in should keep the airport in acceptable condition. Sure it met their criteria, but youthink the next time someone has do a medevac into their community they will think twice about coming in, even if they got the report of and inch of snow in the middle and 3 inches down the side? How do they know whatr is acceptable for the aircraft to land in? Doubt the airport operator has much experience with the aircraft coming to pick up the patient. Yes it cost money to clean the runway, but the community will have to sit down and figure out if it is worth keeping thier runway clean for a medevac or if it isn't worth it to possibly save a life or 2 a year. (potentially)


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seniorpumpkin
PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 11:40 pm 
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The nice thing about single pilot operations is that WHEN you make a mistake there's nobody there to see it. Passengers rarely understand when there has been a mistake and as long as you don't roll the plane up in a ball, there are rarely any consequences. With two pilots though, it's hard to keep mistakes secret :wink:
No doubt though, for them to switch to two crew after all these years would be challenging. Dedicated Crew Resource Management (CRM) courses would be a must.


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Cat Driver
PostPosted: Sat Jan 08, 2011 12:52 am 
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O.K. I am in this deep so I may as well go all the way.

If a government department is stuck in a mindset that goes contrary to almost every other operator of aircraft in a commercial air service I guess there is not much more to be said about said operation.

Doable is not exactly where I would end up in my decision making....I prefer to plan my flights as not only doable but doable with every possible aid in place..including two pilots.

Sure, I can fly single pilot VFR or IFR but why should I when in my opinion it degrades safety.

Incidentally when I first started my IFR training we still had the Radio Range as the primary airway system, and you had to be able to read morse code as part of the ground test.

Quote:
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no


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rigpiggy
PostPosted: Sat Jan 08, 2011 1:19 am 
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Several Years back I was offered a RHS on the 200 with Alta Govt Air Service, I turned it down. At the time I had over 6000TT, and wanted a faster command upgrade path. Dumb, Dumb, Dumb


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Lurch
PostPosted: Sat Jan 08, 2011 1:35 am 
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Wow, sorry I've been out of country for a bit and just got to see this.

Quote:
Do they have a sms


:lol: LITN You have got to be kidding, How would this of helped? You must have swallowed TCs BS hook line and sinker to think this would have prevented anything. unless of course you were being sarcastic, then :roll: should have been used, :mrgreen:

Badgergirl, man I wish you had come from beavercreek, It would have been so much better :wink:

In all seriousness, I'm quite impressed that a reporter is coming on here to try and get their story straight. You have excelled yourself above every other reporter we have seen so far. Trying to get our side of the story. Please even when this story is over, keep this attitude in every story you do in the future.

I also think everybody is being very nice to you because you are a cute outsider ( I did see the original Redbull picture) and pilots being pilots are trying to impress you, not Cat of course he's just being Cat.

Finally Thank you for being there as a FF trying to help us out when we are in trouble, I have nothing but absolute respect for all volunteers willing to put their lives on the line in order to try and save my/other peoples lives when we get into trouble.

Lurch


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ipilot54
PostPosted: Sat Jan 08, 2011 1:57 am 
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turbo-prop:

Your comments show that you are SO far behind understanding the meaning of risk assessment and risk management, it boggles the mind. I guess you know more than the entire aviation industry worldwide. Kudos for you.

You really need to educate yourself...and soon for your own betterment not to mention for your charges safety.

Sorry for the rant folks but I cannot believe that in this day and age that these opinions are still "out there". Change is not always a bad thing...learn and better yourself!

BTW....I do remember ranges but the last ones were just being phased out...thank god.


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BadgerGirl
PostPosted: Sat Jan 08, 2011 2:16 am 
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Lurch,
I wrote out a long and clever reply, but it vanished into thin air somehow. I live in the Bermuda Triangle of Internet service. And apparently, for flight information too.
However, your beaver joke did not fall on deaf or unappreciative ears. I moved here from Winnipeg four years ago and frequently find reason to give people back home directions into Big Beaver before reaching Climax and finally, making it almost home on Old Man On His Back.
I love Saskatchewan.

Thanks about the work stuff too. I own this paper, worked for big media in the past and lost my faith on the corporate culture and its ability to really cover news, so I came here and now I work even harder for much less money! But, I service the town of Climax, so I try to keep everything in perspective.

I just started firefighting in the summer. We are volunteer (we get paid when actually out on a call) and I was always so impressed by this crew's professionalism. We attend a lot of wrecks because we are so close to the highway and this department is as good as any I have witnessed in the city. I am proud to be a member. And it feels good after so many years of standing on the sidelines taking photos, to help hands-on. And I like the adrenaline too, I have to admit that.

I am still working on the story and have been able to obtain some very new and interesting facts today - which would not have been possible without being here.

P.S.
I've bought a case of Red Bull. I am going to carry them around all week and see if people in real life become as helpful. (Reality is it was the only avatar I had under the 6kb limitation!) But thank you!

Lurch wrote:
Badgergirl, man I wish you had come from beavercreek, It would have been so much better :wink:
In all seriousness, I'm quite impressed that a reporter is coming on here to try and get their story straight. You have excelled yourself above every other reporter we have seen so far. Trying to get our side of the story. Please even when this story is over, keep this attitude in every story you do in the future.
I also think everybody is being very nice to you because you are a cute outsider ( I did see the original Redbull picture) and pilots being pilots are trying to impress you, not Cat of course he's just being Cat.
Finally Thank you for being there as a FF trying to help us out when we are in trouble, I have nothing but absolute respect for all volunteers willing to put their lives on the line in order to try and save my/other peoples lives when we get into trouble.
Lurch


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Cat Driver
PostPosted: Sat Jan 08, 2011 2:18 am 
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Quote:
BTW....I do remember ranges but the last ones were just being phased out...thank god.


Yeh, there was one at Lac Labarge in 1971 when I was up there driving a Douglas Racer.

Looking back over the years I was fortunate to have moved from the radio range to RNS. :mrgreen:


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Lurch
PostPosted: Sat Jan 08, 2011 4:50 am 
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BadgerGirl wrote:
Lurch,
I wrote out a long and clever reply, but it vanished into thin air somehow. I live in the Bermuda Triangle of Internet service. And apparently, for flight information too.
However, your beaver joke did not fall on deaf or unappreciative ears. I moved here from Winnipeg four years ago and frequently find reason to give people back home directions into Big Beaver before reaching Climax and finally, making it almost home on Old Man On His Back.
I love Saskatchewan.possible without being here.

P.S.
I've bought a case of Red Bull. I am going to carry them around all week and see if people in real life become as helpful. (Reality is it was the only avatar I had under the 6kb limitation!) But thank you!


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: maybe it was all of the rum today or just my sense of humour, but thanks that was awesome.

Good luck in the flatlands and don't stop posting on this forum, we do appreciate non-pieolets opinions, it helps us bring our egos back down to earth. The problem with spending your whole day flying, you sometimes forget to bring your head back down so it gets a little inflated, among other things :wink:

Lurch


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tripleseven
PostPosted: Sat Jan 08, 2011 10:10 am 
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Turbo-prop, I have to agree with ipilot54's statement. It is proven that a two pilot operation is safer. The only reason not to have a second pilot is money. Also, it is very hypocritical of you to slam having a second pilot in a certified single pilot airplane, as that is where you, as well as I, got our first starts in aviation...as 200 hour Navajo FOs. Oh how easy it is to forget thy roots.
CM


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turbo-prop
PostPosted: Sat Jan 08, 2011 3:25 pm 
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Yes tripleseven I was there at one time as we all have .I was just making the point to ipilot54 that the patients life isn't anymore at risk with one pilot up front. I have never said 2 crew is bad. But it is certified as a single pilot airlane and can be flown that way without compromising patient/passenger safety. I guess using the words "do able" were wrong to use on this forum since everyone takes those words out of context. Plan and simple the plane is certified single pilot, it can be flown just as safely single pilot as 2 crew. Maybe its not for everyone though. I don't believe it is a cost cutting measure by the Sask govt to fly single pilot but more to do with weight. Sure it prbably would be nice for then to move into a 350 type airplane but then you will have to get a lot of airports in the province to lengthen their runways.


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ahramin
PostPosted: Sat Jan 08, 2011 3:46 pm 
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I have a few thousand hours single pilot in King Air aircraft. I am a huge fan and supporter of single pilot operations. In my opinion the vast majority of 2 crew operations in single pilot aircraft in Canada would be far safer spending the money on training and equipment instead of a second pilot.

However ...

Single pilot ops for an on call, night, medevac flight to remote locations is a bad idea. I don't know of any fatal accidents with Sask Air Ambulance. If there have not in fact been any then either the chief pilot / flight department manager has been inordinately adept at hiring skilled pilots; training them properly; managing fatigue and mission pressures consistently; and fostering a working safety culture, or they have been very lucky.

I am not suggesting this accident had anything to do with single pilot ops. From what I have seen the second pilot would probably have been along for the ride with the same outcome. But on the question of single pilot ops I personally don't feel skilled enough to be able to fly the above mission profile and feel certain of never having an accident.


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Prairie Chicken
PostPosted: Sat Jan 08, 2011 5:59 pm 
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After reading the full article I'm not clear about the runway condition. Snow covered, yes, but what about those windrows? I'm wondering if the windrows were outside the runway edge lights (as they should be) or inside the lights, or across the runway. Although there are no standards pertaining to snow removal at a registered aerodrome there are best practices or techniques which sometimes differ from the best practices applicable to a street or highway. The Town may wish to explore whether their maintenance drivers are appropriately trained for aerodrome clearing. This isn't necessarily an additional cost; just appropriate training. I recall hearing of a small AB aerodrome operator who sent a new plow driver out to plow the runway. The guy didn't realize what those pinging noises were as he was going along the edge of the runway. Needless to say, replacing those runway lights was an expensive proposition. :oops: Then again, some of the old boys at the rural aerodromes have got it figured out right.

Quote:
The airplane’s tracks in the snow were observed by those at the scene as veering to the south immediately after landing.
This sounds like a dirty dart to the left after touchdown. Frozen brake perhaps? The B200 has brake de-ice but who knows if it was installed, applied, or worked. Is there any further info on this?

Oh, and BadgerGirl, yes small town SK is a great part of this country! I know your neck of the woods well, having spent much of my misspent youth down on Hwy. 13!

Signed,


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BadgerGirl
PostPosted: Sat Jan 08, 2011 6:14 pm 
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The windrow (and I had never heard that term before I interviewed Mr. Hildebrand!) was outside of the runway. From what I understood, he touched down left of the centre of the runway and as he came down, the left landing gear made contact with the windrow/snowbank.

Not sure how hard that would be to regain control of... in the summer, I cycle and also hold the leash to my 70-pound dog. We had two wrecks over the summer and those were impossible to stop once they were started. I can only imagine an airplane. LOL.


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Sidebar
PostPosted: Sun Jan 09, 2011 11:11 pm 
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seniorpumpkin wrote:
The nice thing about single pilot operations is that WHEN you make a mistake there's nobody there to see it.
The nice thing about two pilot operations is that when you make a mistake there's somebody else there to see it and keep you from killing yourself.


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