Training bond case law.

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roam82
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Training bond case law.

#1 Post by roam82 » Fri Jan 07, 2011 9:36 am

Hi everyone,

I'm just about to sign up a training bound and I was wondering if there ever been a case law on that matter.I remember something about it in Quebec, maybe jetblue...Everybody in the industry say that those papers have no legal value but i'd like to make sure before I sign for an underpaid job (lol) . If anyone as info on that please let me know.

cheers,

R82.
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Re: Training bond case law.

#2 Post by cdnpilot77 » Fri Jan 07, 2011 10:26 am

Oh my....where is my picture of the floodgates opening up?

Edit: i guess can of worms will have to do
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Last edited by cdnpilot77 on Fri Jan 07, 2011 10:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Training bond case law.

#3 Post by niss » Fri Jan 07, 2011 10:31 am

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Re: Training bond case law.

#4 Post by BingBong » Fri Jan 07, 2011 10:41 am

haha...nice FIRST POST on avcanada...not the way I woulda went but....
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Re: Training bond case law.

#5 Post by Panama Jack » Fri Jan 07, 2011 10:42 am

I don't know the answer to your question, but I wouldn't bet on the unenforcability of any Bond. If you decide to break it, do so at your own risk and CYA (cover your ass); ie, if you are leaving because you are being asked to do illegal or unethical things.

If the Bond is not acceptable, don't sign. Look elsewhere. I have been bonded for the last 5 years of my career (one bond after another) but it has not been a major issue for me because I was not planning on leaving. If the terms & conditions are so ghastly that you don't see it attractive in signing at all, don't. If nobody else does, then perhaps the company will have to re-examine their bond.
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roam82
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Re: Training bond case law.

#6 Post by roam82 » Fri Jan 07, 2011 11:00 am

The bond is actualy not that bad, but I know I could get more money once I get the training...they talk about rising thw wages but i dont really thrust them. As for not signing the bond, there's way too many people with absolutly no spinal cord around here to make it work...

anyone with the answer I'm looking for?

R82
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Re: Training bond case law.

#7 Post by teacher » Fri Jan 07, 2011 11:22 am

I had a non-pilot friend in a management position at an air service ask me this. He was asked to review a few things including pilot contracts and here is his words as best as I can remember them:

"So let me get this straight, we work them like slaves, pay them shit money and make them sign a contract that states that if you don't like your working conditions and leave you owe us the balance of your training money? And this is standard policy in aviation?!?! Seriously?!?! Why not pay people right and treat them well instead so they want to stay?"

Spoken like a true non aviation type. Like many people I've talked to they just can't seem to grasp the @#$! job that this business is all about. Needless to say he found a better job himself and didn't owe any money when he left.

I've signed them and I've paid 1 out. I did it because I had no choice but in my opinion all bonds should be illegal. It is the cost of doing business and if you can't afford to train and pay your pilots you shouldn't be in business, period. Employees should never have to subsidize a company's bottom line. Unfortunatly this is one of those things that you don't realize until after you've made the mistake a few times and look back in shame. If the College of Pilots eventually comes to fruition this is one of those things that should be at the top of the list. PAying for training and bonds should be ILLEGAL!!
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Re: Training bond case law.

#8 Post by ipilot54 » Fri Jan 07, 2011 11:32 am

Is the bond enforceable? There is no blanket answer as it depends how it is worded.

Essentially if it is written (correctly) and it shows that the company is “in effect” lending you the money to pay for training, it IS very much enforceable and do not let anyone tell you otherwise. Ours have been to arbitration on a couple of occasions and there was no question as to the validity of the document. In fact, we don’t get bent out of shape if someone “skips out” out on us anymore, we just send it to collection; with 100% success I might add.

There are some out there that are having their pay under garnishee from their current employer as a result.

So, don’t sign it if you don’t intend to live up to your obligations. That was the problem that started this whole mess in the first place, people not standing by their word.
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Re: Training bond case law.

#9 Post by teacher » Fri Jan 07, 2011 12:37 pm

If working conditions were so great people wouldn't have to "stand by their word". It's not up to the employee to be forced to stay but up to the employer to make it so they want to stay. Pilot working conditions are shit and there are lots of people willing to do it for shit so the only reason to get people to stay is to bond them. The problem is not pilots but employers. Pilots end up doing what they have to to get by in this industry not the other way around. Signing a bond that is sometimes worth more than what a pilot actual makes shoud be criminal.

Now I was a part of the problem, I didn't know better and well, I didn't have a choice like up and coming pilots now have no choice. Choosing to not be a pilot is not a choice BTW. The only way this will change is through legislation either by the http://www.collegeofpilots.ca/ or government. Industry has shown in the past few decades that they do not have pilots' best interests in mind with a few exceptions of course but only a few. Just like flight safety, companies will not change unless forced to.

If you can't pay for something as basic as training your pilots you shouldn't be in business. When costs go up do you see any other companies going to the employee groups for money? No, the cost of said product goes up. Only in aviation are the costs passed onto the employee groups.
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Re: Training bond case law.

#10 Post by Bede » Fri Jan 07, 2011 12:56 pm

To answer the question. Yes bonds are enforceable. Don't sign it thinking you can get out of it. There is case law training bonds. It is the same as the common law of contract. Here's a few cases:
http://www.canlii.org/eliisa/highlight. ... pc192.html
http://www.canlii.org/eliisa/highlight. ... 47468.html

If you want more, go on www.canlii.org and type in pilot training bond, or some permutation of that search string..

Also, don't think you can not pay the judgement. Eventually, you may end up in a well paying job, and just as yo think you've made it, your wages get garnished.

IF YOU DON'T LIKE THE BOND, DON'T SIGN IT!!
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Re: Training bond case law.

#11 Post by justwork » Fri Jan 07, 2011 1:33 pm

roam82 wrote:The bond is actualy not that bad, but I know I could get more money once I get the training...they talk about rising thw wages but i dont really thrust them. As for not signing the bond, there's way too many people with absolutly no spinal cord around here to make it work...

anyone with the answer I'm looking for?

R82
And right there is the reason we have bonds in this industry.
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Re: Training bond case law.

#12 Post by RenegadeAV8R » Fri Jan 07, 2011 2:38 pm

Essentially if it is written (correctly) and it shows that the company is “in effect” lending you the money to pay for training, it IS very much enforceable and do not let anyone tell you otherwise. Ours have been to arbitration on a couple of occasions and there was no question as to the validity of the document. In fact, we don’t get bent out of shape if someone “skips out” out on us anymore, we just send it to collection; with 100% success I might add.

There are some out there that are having their pay under garnishee from their current employer as a result.
This is totally disgusting :vom:
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Re: Training bond case law.

#13 Post by RFN » Fri Jan 07, 2011 3:21 pm

Post the name of the company, or, if you prefer, post the types they fly, and where they are based.

Then wait for PMs to let you know if it's worth signing one, or heading for the hills.
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Re: Training bond case law.

#14 Post by pez » Fri Jan 07, 2011 3:50 pm

roam82 wrote:The bond is actualy not that bad, but I know I could get more money once I get the training...they talk about rising thw wages but i dont really thrust them. As for not signing the bond, there's way too many people with absolutly no spinal cord around here to make it work...

anyone with the answer I'm looking for?

R82
Are you kidding me? That's an awfully deceitful way of thinking, to my mind. If you don't plan to stay at the outset, then why are you presenting yourself to the company as a potential employee??? To knowingly screw them? From what little I've seen of smaller operators, there's often much to be desired, and I'm no fan of the one that I worked for - but this sort of appraoch is, in my view, every bit as bad as the way many operators treat pilots. An entirely different matter if you had already signed in good faith, and later found the conditions to be untenable....

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Re: Training bond case law.

#15 Post by canoe » Fri Jan 07, 2011 4:03 pm

roam82 wrote:The bond is actualy not that bad, but I know I could get more money once I get the training...they talk about rising thw wages but i dont really thrust them. As for not signing the bond, there's way too many people with absolutly no spinal cord around here to make it work...

anyone with the answer I'm looking for?

R82
So you're looking for legal advice on Avcanada on how to sign a bond/contract which from the sounds of it you have no intention of honouring and jump ship once said company has fulfilled it's end of the obligation. I don't like bonds, but I understand why they exist. To protect company investment, regardless if the company pays sh&t wages. I've never accepted a bond, and am doing just fine, but I also don't chase metal over lifestyle. Maybe one day I'll have to but it will definitely not be a one way negotiation. Protect yourself in advance, that is what the company is doing. This is what I suggest you do, negotiate your price and working conditions in return for the bond and if the company doesn't bite, then walk. Don't ask for justification if you go in knowingly signing on for low pay and poor working conditions, and not owning up to your end of the deal. If you're looking for someone to say that's ok to sign then jump and there should be no legal reprecussions, it won't be me
Bottom line is if anyone is dumb enough to sign a terrible contract, you better expect to pay for it in one way or another if you leave for anything less than safety concerns, and rightfully so.
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Re: Training bond case law.

#16 Post by TA/RA » Fri Jan 07, 2011 6:29 pm

Roam, if you are indeed serious pm me your info and id be happy to discuss my personal experiences with you over the phone.
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Re: Training bond case law.

#17 Post by roam82 » Fri Jan 07, 2011 7:02 pm

ok, thanks for the serious answers.

I wasn't looking for personal opinions. I'm not that much of a douche bag, I just wanted to know if I had a way out in case the shit hit the fan. I've been with the cie for over a year now and we're looking at serious changes in the near futur. Unfortunately the training bond comes right before we know what exacly is coming...

If you want more, go on http://www.canlii.org and type in pilot training bond, or some permutation of that search string..
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Re: Training bond case law.

#18 Post by Conquest Driver » Fri Jan 07, 2011 9:38 pm

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Re: Training bond case law.

#19 Post by Morav » Fri Jan 07, 2011 10:08 pm

You must have mouths to feed, and this advice of "Don't take the job bla bla bla" wont do you any good, so take the upgrade and get out as soon as possible if something better comes along. If you are leaving because the company you work for pays crap and treats you like shit then who cares if you bust a bond. Others may say you are degrading the industry by doing so, but seriously, the employer knows he's treating you like garbage, so he can't expect you to stay working like a slave! Movement is part of this industry! If employers really did treat and pay their pilots what they're worth, some would leave but most would stay. ORNGE is a prime example. Those guys make close to $100 000 as PC12 captains. WHY would you leave?? If most 703 operations paid this well and treated their employees well it would definitely slow movement down.
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Re: Training bond case law.

#20 Post by Louis » Fri Jan 07, 2011 11:00 pm

Roam82: As some others have posted, make the bond negotiations work both ways. Have them put the raise in the contract. Some scheduling provisions, etc, etc, etc.

This makes it become a much more complete work contract. If they fail to fulfill their end of the bargain, you become free to leave.

Also, make sure that you're not stuck with a loan if the company goes bankrupt or fires you/lays you off.

Another important detail: the Quebec Civil Code is of a different legal tradition than the English Common Law civil law most here are used to. Meaning that things that apply in other provinces don't necessarily do in Quebec. I am however not a lawyer and can't expand much on this topic myself.

Good luck,

Louis
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Re: Training bond case law.

#21 Post by Hawkerflyer » Sun Jan 09, 2011 5:56 pm

Can you afford the court battle? You will loose if it's a well written contract. Not to mention the possible bridges you will burn.
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Re: Training bond case law.

#22 Post by Hawkerflyer » Sun Jan 09, 2011 6:21 pm

roam82 wrote:As for not signing the bond, there's way too many people with absolutly no spinal cord around here to make it work...
Hmmm, I'm guessing you created a new account just to ask this question? Sounds like your the one with no spinal cord. Perhaps you are nervous there is no growth in the company for you?
Good luck, your going to need it.
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Re: Training bond case law.

#23 Post by Captain Kangaroo » Sun Jan 09, 2011 7:13 pm

roam82 wrote:
I'm not that much of a douche bag
I beg to differ...

CK
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Re: Training bond case law.

#24 Post by Liquid Charlie » Sun Jan 09, 2011 8:41 pm

What I would try to do is redefine it - not a training bond but a contract - take their offer - go to your own lawyer and do what they want but build in protection for yourself - training bonds will never go away so turn it around a little and make it work for you as well as the company.
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Re: Training bond case law.

#25 Post by tsgas » Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:44 am

ipilot54 wrote:Is the bond enforceable? There is no blanket answer as it depends how it is worded.

Essentially if it is written (correctly) and it shows that the company is “in effect” lending you the money to pay for training, it IS very much enforceable and do not let anyone tell you otherwise. Ours have been to arbitration on a couple of occasions and there was no question as to the validity of the document. In fact, we don’t get bent out of shape if someone “skips out” out on us anymore, we just send it to collection; with 100% success I might add.

There are some out there that are having their pay under garnishee from their current employer as a result.

So, don’t sign it if you don’t intend to live up to your obligations. That was the problem that started this whole mess in the first place, people not standing by their word.
Good .Anyone that is thinking about ways to screw the company before they actually start a new job deserves to be burnt Big Time. These types of people just ruin the industry for the honest,hard working pilots.
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