Battle lines being drawn over YHC Seaplane Terminal

[Apollo]

With the completion date of the new Vancouver Harbour Seaplane terminal getting closer and closer Vancouver Harbour Flight Centre, Seaplane operators are crying foul at the exhorbitant rental rates, and new passenger ($12 per person, per trip) levy being imposed on them by a private developer.

Vancouver Sun Article

The new' dock and terminal planned for the north end of the Vancouver Convention Centre is to be built by a private developer and financed in part by a passenger fee of $12 for each take off and landing. They say that fee could go up if the number of passengers using the facility falls, a scenario that float plane operators fear will come to pass if the higher costs scare people off.

The operators that would be using the new terminal have bound together and formed an association to recommend a public, not-for-profit falicity east of where the convention centre terminal is being built. Vancouver Commercial Seaplane Operators Association. The 'Harbour Hub' as it is called, will include access to all major forms of transportation - unlike the convention centre which will have no ease-of-access for passengers.

Discuss.

[bigsky]

Am I reading this right? According to the development schedule, this thing is pretty well completed, and only now the user group is saying they want a different location?

Was this planned in advance or just "pushed through"?

[Road Trip]

A private developer wants to build a seaplane base and heaven forbid charge rent, passenger fees and OMG possibly make a profit. Only in aviation do we think that other people and businesses should lose money or at least not make a profit in order for us to continue to survive.

I don't see the issue, especially for HA. Do they not have docs in that area already? So use their own docs and aviod the crippling $12 fee. Btw the docs at the international airport on the river charge about the same fee and their customers seem to have no problem paying it.

I know in the past HA has refused access to most people who wanted to drop off or pick up on the north end and use their docs. Maybe the cry is really about not having a monoply on the north end anymore.

[C-FABH]

I don't see the issue, especially for HA. Do they not have docs in that area already? So use their own docs and aviod the crippling $12 fee. Btw the docs at the international airport on the river charge about the same fee and their customers seem to have no problem paying it.

Here's the reason why that can't work:

Under its lease with the city, Harbour Air was to move from its existing site some time in 2012, when a two-year term expires, or when a new, permanent facility is built – whichever came first.

Once a new facility is up and running, Harbour Air’s lease would no longer be in effect, a city spokeswoman said Monday, adding that the company could apply for a new lease for a new site at any time.

Link: Globe & Mail

And here's an update from The Vancouver Sun:

Port Metro Vancouver says no to seaplane terminal east of Canada Place

Obviously the Port, having gone to the effort of having this permanent facility constructed, will be less than thrilled to approve any additional sites that will interfere with their best interests.

[cdnpilot77]

Hey Roadtrip...it's spelt "DOCKS". I would have let it go if it was just once or maybe even twice.

Anyways:

So just as with airlines operating out of airports, they have to be concerned with anything that makes the service they offer less convenient or more expensive. They have to compete with other forms of transport for their business.

This also makes passengers go away so why shouldn't they cry foul if they are going to be charged fees that they weren't anticipating. It seems this for profit company has them by the balls and has decided to exercise their handhold. If they think they can do it better for cheaper than have at it.

[Road Trip]

Well that clarifies a few things.

My sympathy level is still low. As I had an occasion when I called looking for permission to doc and HA said nope it's our doc bugger off. Everyone else I've talked to who requested permission has been told the same thing. Now it seems HA are the ones being told to bugger off or at least pay up.

So our (the floatplane community) options have gone from bugger off not a chance to yes you can if you pay $12 per person. $12 is a better deal for me and every other non HA plane that had zero access before.

BTW I checked out the new terminal. It looks sweet! I'll have to stop by sometime and check it out.

[fish4life]

They may have had a bad experience before where someone ended up scrapping one of their planes or got in the way of where they were going to dock themselves. 12/person seems pretty steep for using a dock anyway

[cdnpilot77]

They may have had a bad experience before where someone ended up scrapping one of their planes or got in the way of where they were going to dock themselves. 12/person seems pretty steep for using a dock anyway

Very true, but so does $75 to use the ramp in London for a 3 minute turnaround...agreed $12 seems pretty steep as well but I look at the deeper impact of the location. Furthermore, $12/pax for guys using it on occasion is very different from $12/pax for several flights per day.

[fish4life]

ya the occasional use person would benefit from something like this because now they will have a nice facility to use but a company who is has a base there will be hurt because they would be much better off being able to use their own facility and shouldn't be forced into some other "for profit" dock.

[yzfer]

So the private developer has yet to secure tenants for this facility?

[I_Heart_Seaplanes]

Long time guest, first time poster. I just had to chime in on this one.

A private developer wants to build a seaplane base and heaven forbid charge rent, passenger fees and OMG possibly make a profit. Only in aviation do we think that other people and businesses should lose money or at least not make a profit in order for us to continue to survive.

A little more to it than that. The developer built the convention centre on the land where the old seaplane base was located, with the understanding that the seaplane facility would be relocated to the finished building.

I don't see the issue, especially for HA. Do they not have docs in that area already? So use their own docs and aviod the crippling $12 fee. Btw the docs at the international airport on the river charge about the same fee and their customers seem to have no problem paying it.

For the past 6ish years HA has been operating out of temporary trailers adjacent to the construction site. This site has to be moved when a new facility is available. Which sounded like a reasonable deal until the pax fees were announced. BTW the "Port Fee" for the government dock in ZNA is about $2 per pax.

I know in the past HA has refused access to most people who wanted to drop off or pick up on the north end and use their docs. Maybe the cry is really about not having a monoply on the north end anymore.

HA refuses docking privileges to companies that they do not have a reciprocal agreement with. There are 3 other companies that use HA's dock regularly. Plus, until this summer, float planes were allowed to use the massive government dock 50ft west of HA.

[pilotidentity]

This post might sound anti Harbour Air but I consider them to be a great airline that runs a very professional operation.

What I am really against is the monopoly situation that exists now.

With the purchase of West Coast Air, Harbour Air has enjoyed a monopoly in Vancouver Harbour, Victoria Harbour and Nanaimo Harbour and it all hinges on the rights to dock and office space.

I find it interesting that HA has "partnered" with the other much smaller airlines that they have denied use of their docks to in the past. Their "Association" website says they would now like to limit dock use to these partners only.

According to the Vancouver Harbour Flight Centre website the docks in Vancouver Harbour are completed and are ready to be towed into place.

I know that I will be smiling along with Road Trip the first time I stop in there and pay my $24, not because I dislike Harbour Air, but because I now have an option that was never open to me before.

[Widow]

Someone please assure me that this lobby group is not what has become of the SAFETY association (see viewtopic.php?f=25&t=68173 ) that was supposed to be starting up ...

[Eric Scott]

No, this is a separate association completely. The Floatplane Operators Association is still focused on its original mandate.

Eric

[whisair]

As one involved with this issue I would like to clarify a few misconceptions that have cropped up on this site plus add a little insight as to what has happened in the past and what we hope to see happen in the future.
Harbour Air and West Coast Air built a temporary floatplane facility for two million dollars seven years ago when they were forced to relocate because the new convention center was to be constructed on their location.
Once the convention was built the government of the day promised a new common use floatplane facility would be built in front of it with costs being kept to reasonable levels and within the parameters of typical common use facilities.
What has happened is that the rights to develop the new floatplane facility have somehow ended up in the hands of the former chair of the YVR airport authority and the largest construction company in BC. Under a backroom sweetheart deal, they entered into an agreement with Pavco (the crown corporation charged with administering BC crown assets) to construct and manage the facility and to receive 15% return on their investment. Under this model they have a huge incentive to build the most expensive and gold plated floatplane base they can because they get a guaranteed 15% return in perpetuity. This is a far cry from what was originally promised.
As a result the current and future potential Vancouver operators banned together a year ago to try and negotiate a more equatable arrangement. We have been met with complete disregard.
You can find all the information on our new initiative at www.vcsoa.com
By the way, Harbour Air and West Coast Air have in the past entered into reciprocal dock agreements including with Whistler Air my company. The float dock in front of the Bayshore has been available for users as well so the Vancouver Harbour has always been accessible to everyone.

[phillyfan]

It will be just like buying a ticket with Air Canada and Westjet. You find a great deal for a ticket at $99 next think you know after all the tax and fees it's $175

[cessnafloatflyer]

By the way, the docking fee is $2.50 per passenger at AM9, Vancouver Intl. seaplane dock. The $12 is a fee passed directly on to the passenger, not the airline. The company that is doing the building has no preapproved budget of anykind and has the right to reap a 15% return forever. There is no need for an over the top fancy terminal. Floatplane operators were not consulted about their needs and we are now faced with passing on these fees. PS they will be even more for non-scheduled users.

[tdawe]

Looks like they've starting putting the dock in, how goes the fight for the VCSOA? Or is there a fight anymore?

[2R]

Will they be charging for terminal improvements yet too come ?The ceo needs a golden shitter
An illegal tax impossed on travellers using sub-standard terminals for something that they are not using.They called it a user fee,but how can anyone charge a user fee,tax,airport improvement fee on a traveller when that traveller may never benefit from the use of the facilities that they are being charged for ?
The fuel taxes that are still collected at the refinery for airport improvements are still being used in General Revenue and not allocated for the purpose that the taxes where collected for.It is an abuse of the taxation system impossed by the same guy who does his some of his banking in banks offshore rather than pay tax in the country he used to Govern.
Most of those who fly out of the Harbour are provincial government employees so in a way it is the Province who will be paying the majority of these gouges.While the fuel tax money goes where ???
While we are busy debating twelve dollars per passenger how many millions has been misappropriated from the fuel tax that was originally intended for airport improvements by a policy inherited from a tax dodging minister
So long as nobody gets off their arse to vote this grand larceny will continue.Making the travelling public pay twice for services make sense to the manderins who pay themselves twice while at the public tax funded trough
Enjoy ,bon appetite

[YYZatcboy]

If all of the float plane airlines don't want to pay the fees and can't have their own facilities then why not just stop flying to the harbour and exclusively fly to the international. If no one uses the facility then perhaps they can negotiate a better rate... Supply and demand. No one uses the facility, prices go down till they do.