TC Wants my Logbook.

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phillyfan
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TC Wants my Logbook.

Post by phillyfan » Tue Feb 08, 2011 10:40 am

Hey

Had a question regarding my personal logbook. I am a float/ski pilot. I have not been keeping a logbook since before the CAR's came out in 1996. The way I read the CAR's I only need to enter flights nessesary to prove I am current.

The second part of the question is. If they want to see it? Can I tell them to eat shit. I can't find anything in the CAR's that says I have to give them the logbook if i'm not trying to upgrade my licence or anything.

I'm not one of those TC haters. Just trying to learn what a guys rights are.
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Go Juice
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Re: TC Wants my Logbook.

Post by Go Juice » Tue Feb 08, 2011 11:07 am

If they want to see your log book and you don't want to show them for whatever reason.... Is there anyway you could lose your log book therefore being unable to show them? :)

Now I wouldn't suggest you do that, it would be wrong.... :)
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Re: TC Wants my Logbook.

Post by winds_in_flight_wtf » Tue Feb 08, 2011 11:36 am

What do you have to hide? Show them the bloody thing so they can move on....? (or something which proves you are current)
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Re: TC Wants my Logbook.

Post by Cat Driver » Tue Feb 08, 2011 11:53 am

Be careful, very, very, very careful.

Something is wrong, very, very, very wrong.

Maybe get legal advice?
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phillyfan
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Re: TC Wants my Logbook.

Post by phillyfan » Tue Feb 08, 2011 12:31 pm

Ya it was brought up at a meeting with 4 TC inspectors. We were just shooting the shit about some other stuff and the subject of personal logbooks came up. My impression was always that I needed to be able to prove currency and nothing more. Can't I just write 3 legs to cover the 3 to/land in the last 90 days on a napkin and keep that as my logbook.
I'm not trying to hide anything. My old logbook shows I have enough time to hold a commercial licence. I can prove currency with the aircraft logbooks. Is that not enough? I really doubt that I am the only bush guy not logging every trip from "Lake A to Lake B".
It was nothing too crazy. It was just a friendly chat about the requirement.
Truth is I have better things to do then fill out my logbook at the end of the day. Trying to find the lazy guys way around it.
Maybe they will pull my ticket and I will be able to pursue my dream of driving a train.
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Re: TC Wants my Logbook.

Post by Cat Driver » Tue Feb 08, 2011 1:08 pm

That is weird Philly, I have never been asked for a personal log book by anyone in over fifty years in the business.

The CAR's are clear on what is mandatory, in your case proof of recency.

And for sure you are not required to carry a personal log book.
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Re: TC Wants my Logbook.

Post by Bushav8er » Tue Feb 08, 2011 1:24 pm

At one time logs were considered personal property. Now they are a CARs requirement, granted primarily for recency and licence upgrades. I stopped recording every leg in the mid 90's in favour of logging total time for each day - 1 line entry per day. I still consider it 'personal' but keep it because of CARs and for my own record;
401.08 (1) Every applicant for, and every holder of, a flight crew permit, licence or rating shall maintain a personal log in accordance with subsection (2) and with the personnel licensing standards for the documentation of

(a) experience acquired in respect of the issuance of the flight crew permit, licence or rating; and
(amended 2001/03/01; previous version)

(b) recency.

(2) A personal log that is maintained for the purposes referred to in paragraphs (1)(a) and (b) shall contain the holder's name and the following information in respect of each flight:

(a) the date of the flight;

(b) the type of aircraft and its registration mark;

(c) the flight crew position in which the holder acted;

(d) the flight conditions with respect to day, night, VFR and IFR;

(e) in the case of a flight in a aeroplane or helicopter, the place of departure and the place of arrival;

(f) in the case of a flight in an aeroplane, all of the intermediate take-offs and landings;

(g) the flight time;

(h) in the case of a flight in a glider, the method of launch used for the flight; and

(i) in the case of a flight in a balloon, the method of inflation used for the flight.

(3) No person shall make an entry in a personal log unless the person

(a) is the holder of the log; or

(b) has been authorized to make the entry by the holder of the log.
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Re: TC Wants my Logbook.

Post by Cat Driver » Tue Feb 08, 2011 1:27 pm

Never mind hours logged, I can't even remember how many countries I flew in. :mrgreen:
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Re: TC Wants my Logbook.

Post by beaverbob » Tue Feb 08, 2011 1:34 pm

Every company has to keep a record of all professional pilots times for flight limitation and duty time requirements. If you fly for any charter company your time is recorded by the flight hour even if you don't. I keep up my personal log book with an annual entry taken from the company records at the end of each year. Is that even legal?
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Re: TC Wants my Logbook.

Post by Bulawrench » Tue Feb 08, 2011 1:53 pm

Does the doctor that gives you a medical ask to see your logbook ?
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Re: TC Wants my Logbook.

Post by trey kule » Tue Feb 08, 2011 2:05 pm

What do you have to hide? Show them the bloody thing so they can move on....? (or something which proves you are current)
The rationale of the Gestapo or the Department of Transport.

This is about one's rights. You dont concede your rights for convenience. And civil rights dont disappear all at once..a little a time.

What bothers me about this and other things that happen face to face with TC, is that they ask very nicely...to give up your rights on this or that... And if you refuse they turn on you like a pact of pitbulls on a porkchop.

If it is required to surrender it, then so be it. If not, tell anyone asking to pound sand.
I dont really know the answer as to what goes on in Canada.
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Re: TC Wants my Logbook.

Post by burhead1 » Tue Feb 08, 2011 2:11 pm

Cat Driver wrote:That is weird Philly, I have never been asked for a personal log book by anyone in over fifty years in the business.

.
I was asked to see my log book, I landed in Sudbury to drop a off a friend, i tried to walk back out to the plane to locked doors that said "see commissioner"
Well the commissioner drilled me, wanted lic medical, and log book he went behind the counter and was there for 10 min or so. Came back out and said thank you and opened the door.
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Re: TC Wants my Logbook.

Post by KK7 » Tue Feb 08, 2011 2:34 pm

burhead1 wrote: Well the commissioner drilled me, wanted lic medical, and log book he went behind the counter and was there for 10 min or so. Came back out and said thank you and opened the door.
Ha! I wonder how many people actually carry their logbook with them, assuming they even have one of course. I certainly don't fly with my log book. I work on rotation overseas and I don't risk bringing my logbook with me, it stays at home on my book shelf. I make copies should the customer need to see it, which they do from time to time to prove I have the experience to fly their people around. But this is a contractual agreement, not a legal requirement.
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Re: TC Wants my Logbook.

Post by LegoMan » Tue Feb 08, 2011 2:41 pm

Ask to see their logbook! If they pull it out you pull out a napkin and say "so thats what its suppose to look like" 8)
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Re: TC Wants my Logbook.

Post by ArcticKat » Tue Feb 08, 2011 2:57 pm

phillyfan wrote: It was nothing too crazy. It was just a friendly chat about the requirement.
So they don't actually "want" your logbook like the thread title states?
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Re: TC Wants my Logbook.

Post by phillyfan » Tue Feb 08, 2011 3:09 pm

They have not formally asked. They just told me they might and that they can. I've been around aviation long enough to know. Don't do shit, unless it's asked for in writing.
I've never been asked during my medical. I write 200hrs in the last 12mths, 500hrs total. Been writing that since the early 90's.
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Re: TC Wants my Logbook.

Post by Hedley » Tue Feb 08, 2011 3:16 pm

I don't know of any CAR that states that a pilot must surrender his logbooks to Transport. Does anyone? Is it in the Aeronautics Act, or buried somewhere else weird?

Transport is free to lay a charge against any pilot, that they have contravened the various regulations with respect to the 5 year rule, the 6 month pax carrying rule, etc.

Then you fax a request for review to the Tribunal, and show up with a certified true copy of your logbook, with the unnecessary entries blacked out - a lawyer taught me that trick. Also, if you file an Access to Information request, if it ever comes back, most if it will be blacked out. So, you might as well do the same thing.

At the Tribunal, you don't have to bring your logbook, if you have other sources of information - journey log, daily flight sheets, etc - which support your claim that you have not contravened any of the various recency/currency/pax carrying/6-6-6 requirements.
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Re: TC Wants my Logbook.

Post by Cat Driver » Tue Feb 08, 2011 3:43 pm

Once again why would TC ask for your personal log book?

It is not in the list of documents they have the right to ask for.

If they are being that anal there has to be some reason.
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Re: TC Wants my Logbook.

Post by Siddley Hawker » Tue Feb 08, 2011 6:32 pm

I can't find anything in the CAR's that says I have to give them the logbook if i'm not trying to upgrade my licence or anything.
Do you own a dog? :wink:
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Re: TC Wants my Logbook.

Post by photofly » Tue Feb 08, 2011 8:17 pm

As an aside, it's actually recommended NOT to fly with your logbook (or the aircraft maintenance logs, either) - if you crash and burn the TSB will be better served if the logs are available and legible.
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Re: TC Wants my Logbook.

Post by Hedley » Wed Feb 09, 2011 2:40 am

if you crash and burn the TSB will be better served if the logs are available
I can't stop laughing. My vote for the funniest post of the year :wink:


Re-reading this thread, you can't help but get the insidious feeling that according to the Powers That Be, Aviation is a SIN in Canada, and if you dare to ever commit Aviation, you are a SINNER and sooner or later all SINNERS are going to be punished and crushed by the Mighty Hand of God for their SINS, when He eventually catches up to you, and have no fear that He will, because He never forgets the SINS that you committed, when you dared to commit Aviation.

Very "Old Testament" religious feel to it, n'est ce pas?
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Re: TC Wants my Logbook.

Post by Prairie Chicken » Wed Feb 09, 2011 5:42 am

This sounds like non-Enforcement inspectors who don't know their authorities. Like Cat, I'm wondering why they would want to see your log. It sounds like it may have been just coffee chat or a power trip but I wasn't there.

A log may be in any format, including a napkin, computer record or even journey log if that is the only a/c you fly.
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Re: TC Wants my Logbook.

Post by TG » Wed Feb 09, 2011 7:24 am

Back in the early 90's, a friend of mine had his logbook sort of "impounded" by TC for a very short time.
Well not really impounded but it could have depending the outcome of their finding.

If I remember well, he went to leave it at their office to have them confirm his ATPL hours.
At the front desk, one inspector doing a quick review tumbled into one of the C-206 registrations he had written on it. He then asked him politely if he could show his logbook to someone else.
"Sure, no problem!"

This particular aircraft was at the time under surveillance by the RCMP, being suspected of trafficking for a well known motorcycle club.
It took them 5 minutes to figure out that the particular spotting dates and locations were not matching :wink:

No idea what would have been the outcome if they were to.
Also, I suspect that nobody doing this kind of flights would be stupid enough to record them.
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Re: TC Wants my Logbook.

Post by Cranium » Wed Feb 09, 2011 8:49 am

CAR 401.08 requires you to maintain a logbook. CAR 103.02(2) basically says that if they ask for it, you must give it to them. 103.02(4) also requires that you give them your napkin.

Inspection of Aircraft, Requests for Production of Documents and Prohibitions

103.02 (1) The owner or operator of an aircraft shall, on reasonable notice given by the Minister, make the aircraft available for inspection in accordance with the notice.

(2) Every person who

(a) is the holder of a Canadian aviation document,

(b) is the owner, operator or pilot-in-command of an aircraft in respect of which a Canadian aviation document, technical record or other document is kept, or

(c) has in possession a Canadian aviation document, technical record or other document relating to an aircraft or a commercial air service

shall produce the Canadian aviation document, technical record or other document for inspection in accordance with the terms of a demand made by a peace officer, an immigration officer or the Minister.

(3) No person shall

(a) lend a Canadian aviation document to any person who is not entitled to it by these Regulations, or allow any such person to use a Canadian aviation document; or

(b) mutilate, alter or render illegible a Canadian aviation document.

(4) For the purposes of this Section, "other document" includes all writings, papers and other records made, held or maintained by the owner, operator or pilot-in-command of an aircraft for the purpose of recording any action, activity, performance or use of the aircraft or any activity of the owner, operator or crew members in respect of that aircraft, whether or not the documents are required by law to be made, held or maintained.
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Re: TC Wants my Logbook.

Post by trey kule » Wed Feb 09, 2011 9:52 am

I think you got it pretty much right Hedley. A great many of the
CARS are written to facilitate the ease of enforcement. It is a very negative directed focus , similar to the inquisition where one is obliged to provide with the great power, Totalus, Cu....tus the necessary evidence to prove then has gone astray.

I have personally witness inspectors on a power trip. Frightnening, but what was even more so, was the fact that having had it reported , TC management took no action.

The dog plan has merit
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