Questions for YYZ Tower?
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Re: Questions for YYZ Tower?
That guy moves a lot of planes without losing is cool, plus he never asks for best rate of climb & maximum forward speed at the same time.I know you know Rog doesn't work Tower. Note I sad "if" he worked tower. How do you know he was doing a great job? Just because you think he sounds cool? Give me a break. He's not Nick Falzone you know.
We miss him in Montreal !
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standards are set too low."
Re: Questions for YYZ Tower?
In reference to "rog". For the record, all things may not be as rosey as they sound!!! YOU (pilots), may think he is the cats ass of ATC, but that is not the opinion from other ATC'ers.
Without trying to sound derogatory, alot of scenerios get "fixed" after coming from departure with vectors and speed because of "FALZONE". Some head scrtaching and scrambling is done at times because of the unexpected from said terminal controller. I am not saying I am perfect either, but just because they sound cool does not mean anything more than that!!!
IFRATC
Without trying to sound derogatory, alot of scenerios get "fixed" after coming from departure with vectors and speed because of "FALZONE". Some head scrtaching and scrambling is done at times because of the unexpected from said terminal controller. I am not saying I am perfect either, but just because they sound cool does not mean anything more than that!!!
IFRATC
Re: Questions for YYZ Tower?
IFRATC,
Bitter? I don't know how things look down there, but from my vantage point things seem to go awfully smoothly when he's working (not that they're bad when anyone else is working though). The thing that I like about rog is that he always tells you why he's doing something, so we see the big picture too. It gives us a lot more confidence in our controller. For example, we look at the TCAS and start cursing when we're vectored over Guelph without any traffic in sight, but rog will tell you why the big vector (heavy spacing, etc) and it all makes sense. I wish all controllers did that.
Keep up the good work YYZ ATC BTW.
I have a question. Do ATC types have standard arrival altitudes regardless if there's traffic or not. For example, coming in from ECK or south, we often have to start a decent like 250 NM out. It's kind of a pain. Is it always necessary or is it standard to avoid screw ups down the line?
Bitter? I don't know how things look down there, but from my vantage point things seem to go awfully smoothly when he's working (not that they're bad when anyone else is working though). The thing that I like about rog is that he always tells you why he's doing something, so we see the big picture too. It gives us a lot more confidence in our controller. For example, we look at the TCAS and start cursing when we're vectored over Guelph without any traffic in sight, but rog will tell you why the big vector (heavy spacing, etc) and it all makes sense. I wish all controllers did that.
Keep up the good work YYZ ATC BTW.
I have a question. Do ATC types have standard arrival altitudes regardless if there's traffic or not. For example, coming in from ECK or south, we often have to start a decent like 250 NM out. It's kind of a pain. Is it always necessary or is it standard to avoid screw ups down the line?
Re: Questions for YYZ Tower?
Being a good controller isn't just about moving the airplanes around you scope, airport or runways. Its about working as part of a team and giving your colleagues the airplanes where, when and how they expect them to ensure that the safe and orderly flow is maintained.
Its no good doing everything just for yourself. As a tower controller I could say "cleared for take off" every 30 seconds and look and sound like I'm doing a fantastic job. (Sometimes I do, and I am, but that's a different story ) Chances are though, unless I have precisely the right mix of traffic, doing this will cause the guy on the receiving end to have a different opinion of me. Each controller has to provide the next controller with something he can work with.
Its no good an arrival controller giving the tower a gap a mile less than they need to fit a departure in. Sure the arrivals get down quicker, but what about the departures? Remember, you might be in the departure line up next time.
Its no good a tower controller handing the departure controller aircraft too close together or in a bad position relative to where they want to go. Sure you get off the ground quickly but he's so sewered you stay at 5000 feet and fly an extra 20 miles.
Its no good for a departure controller to give the en route aircraft in a place (geographically or vertically) that doesn't suit the flow of traffic through that area. Again you may be kept low or taken off course to re-establish order.
Yes we should provide you enough information to give you a picture of what's going on, but not at the expense of doing what others expect of us.
To be a good controller you have to be cool under pressure and work as part of a team and be respected by that team. If you can't do all of those things, then you'll never be considered a good controller by your fellow controllers no matter how cool you sound on the radio.
DC
Its no good doing everything just for yourself. As a tower controller I could say "cleared for take off" every 30 seconds and look and sound like I'm doing a fantastic job. (Sometimes I do, and I am, but that's a different story ) Chances are though, unless I have precisely the right mix of traffic, doing this will cause the guy on the receiving end to have a different opinion of me. Each controller has to provide the next controller with something he can work with.
Its no good an arrival controller giving the tower a gap a mile less than they need to fit a departure in. Sure the arrivals get down quicker, but what about the departures? Remember, you might be in the departure line up next time.
Its no good a tower controller handing the departure controller aircraft too close together or in a bad position relative to where they want to go. Sure you get off the ground quickly but he's so sewered you stay at 5000 feet and fly an extra 20 miles.
Its no good for a departure controller to give the en route aircraft in a place (geographically or vertically) that doesn't suit the flow of traffic through that area. Again you may be kept low or taken off course to re-establish order.
Yes we should provide you enough information to give you a picture of what's going on, but not at the expense of doing what others expect of us.
To be a good controller you have to be cool under pressure and work as part of a team and be respected by that team. If you can't do all of those things, then you'll never be considered a good controller by your fellow controllers no matter how cool you sound on the radio.
DC
Re: Questions for YYZ Tower?
Eloquently said Cossack. My point exactly. Alot of times I am left with a situation that does not conform to the flow of traffic that I was expecting. May seem great and efficient to the pilot on departure but when handed off to the enroute, but the extra vectors to get you climbing and on course make me scratch my head. Its called fixing or cleaning up someone elses mistakes. The anticipation of aircraft being handed off to you clean and or within the parameters of the departure corridor are not always there. I do not like having to guess what departure is giving me. I don't have the time. As aircraft are funneling out of departure and are handed off according to procedure or agreement between terminal and enroute I can make tactical decisions prior to them checking on. If this is not the case I am guessing!!
I am not bitter. My point is there are alot of controllers in the terminal that have a better understanding of there actions and how it affects the enroute than high and mighty "Rog". There have been many occassions where I have seen guys walk down to the terminal and question what is going on. Sounding cool and being a rogue does not make one respected amongst peers. Just pilots I guess.
IFRATC
I am not bitter. My point is there are alot of controllers in the terminal that have a better understanding of there actions and how it affects the enroute than high and mighty "Rog". There have been many occassions where I have seen guys walk down to the terminal and question what is going on. Sounding cool and being a rogue does not make one respected amongst peers. Just pilots I guess.
IFRATC
Re: Questions for YYZ Tower?
You shouldn't be - not with your awesome pension!!I am not bitter
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Re: Questions for YYZ Tower?
at the end of the day, i think both atc and pilots end up doing things that seems counterintuitive to the other group but both have their reasons. the presumption that controllers are good at their job by virtue of how cool they sound on the radio makes about as little sense as passengers who have totally off-base notions of what makes a good pilot.
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Re: Questions for YYZ Tower?
Yes is the answer. If we are on the 06s and you are coming in over watrerloo then we expect the arrivals to come in at 7000 ft...given that you are only about 30 miles from touchdown at that point..give or take afew vectors for spacing it is easier to have you lower. Plus as often happens on those runways there can be a nasty tailwind on final..so trying to get you down AND have you slowing down AND providing the tower with the required space is not easy. Better to have you descending further out than close in when there is not as much space to work with.I have a question. Do ATC types have standard arrival altitudes regardless if there's traffic or not. For example, coming in from ECK or south, we often have to start a decent like 250 NM out. It's kind of a pain. Is it always necessary or is it standard to avoid screw ups down the line
On the 24s we expect over Waterloo the arrivals to be level at 11000 (jets). This gives us a chance to sequence into the downwind in relation the the arrivals coming in over Linng. If you are too high then it can be tough to descend you through traffic from the south, and again get you to slow down in order to position you for final. We can slam dunk with the best of them in YYZ..but from a personal perspective I try not to as we lose control of you in the turn and end up screwing up the space on final. Descent further out gives tighter control in the terminal.
Personal opinion only..but seconded by afew of my colleagues.
Re: Questions for YYZ Tower?
I don't think he was talking about the 7000 ROKTO crossing, but more the fact that we get descended down to the mid 20,000's fairly early, usually by Cleveland center, out by ECK. Not a big deal to me...I always just figured it was a US ATC thing because we never get it on the Simcoe or Mans arrivals, but we always get it on the Waterloo and usually the Youth arrivals.