The Martin Mars is coming to nothern Alberta

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SierraPoppa
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The Martin Mars is coming to nothern Alberta

Post by SierraPoppa » Fri Jun 03, 2011 2:16 pm

From CBC.ca
The largest water bomber in the world is flying to Alberta from British Columbia to help fight wildfires in the oilsands region.

Alberta Sustainable Resources says the Martin Mars is to begin dropping huge loads of water Saturday on the Richardson back-country fires.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/s ... omber.html
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co-joe
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Re: The Martin Mars is coming to nothern Alberta

Post by co-joe » Fri Jun 03, 2011 3:52 pm

Very cool. why does the Mars always come up as "the world's largest water bomber" when it can only scoop 27 000 Litres of water and the DC 10 can drop 12 000 gallons or 45 600 Litres? Just curious...
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Re: The Martin Mars is coming to nothern Alberta

Post by Commonwealth » Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:07 pm

co-joe wrote:Very cool. why does the Mars always come up as "the world's largest water bomber" when it can only scoop 27 000 Litres of water and the DC 10 can drop 12 000 gallons or 45 600 Litres? Just curious...
Perhaps it is the worlds' largest flying boat and that just doesn't have the same ring to it??? Not really sure, anyone more informed?????
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Re: The Martin Mars is coming to nothern Alberta

Post by SierraPoppa » Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:32 pm

Commonwealth wrote:
co-joe wrote:Very cool. why does the Mars always come up as "the world's largest water bomber" when it can only scoop 27 000 Litres of water and the DC 10 can drop 12 000 gallons or 45 600 Litres? Just curious...
Perhaps it is the worlds' largest flying boat and that just doesn't have the same ring to it??? Not really sure, anyone more informed?????
Perhaps they are just coming up with the largest size-wise not how much water it can drop?

The Mars has a larger wingspan perhaps that's it. :D
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Re: The Martin Mars is coming to nothern Alberta

Post by Tiny Voices » Fri Jun 03, 2011 6:38 pm

Or perhaps it's because being that it is a water bomber, the Mars drops water, where as the DC-10 typically drops retardant?
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Re: The Martin Mars is coming to nothern Alberta

Post by iflyforpie » Fri Jun 03, 2011 8:51 pm

There is a distinct distinction between water bombers and air tankers, though most of Joe public use the two terms interchangeably.
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Big Pistons Forever
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Re: The Martin Mars is coming to nothern Alberta

Post by Big Pistons Forever » Fri Jun 03, 2011 9:15 pm

The only thing that matters is the number of gallons of water on the fire put on the fire at the end of the daylight. In almost every circumstance one CL415 can out produce the MARS, and is much more flexible and requires far less ground support. The day of the MARs is over and they belong in a museum
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Re: The Martin Mars is coming to nothern Alberta

Post by just curious » Fri Jun 03, 2011 9:48 pm

If you're going to express views like that, shouldn't you be chaining your name to big compressor blades forever?
Just sayin'
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Re: The Martin Mars is coming to nothern Alberta

Post by All Sides » Fri Jun 03, 2011 9:51 pm

[quote="Big Pistons Forever"]The only thing that matters is the number of gallons of water on the fire put on the fire at the end of the daylight. In almost every circumstance one CL415 can out produce the MARS, and is much more flexible and requires far less ground support. The day of the MARs is over and they belong in a museum[/quote]

Sounds like sour grapes to me...................
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Re: The Martin Mars is coming to nothern Alberta

Post by beechnut » Fri Jun 03, 2011 10:09 pm

Allsides
1 Mars = 4 Ducks
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Re: The Martin Mars is coming to nothern Alberta

Post by CJ3PILOT » Sat Jun 04, 2011 6:01 am

All Sides wrote:
Big Pistons Forever wrote:The only thing that matters is the number of gallons of water on the fire put on the fire at the end of the daylight. In almost every circumstance one CL415 can out produce the MARS, and is much more flexible and requires far less ground support. The day of the MARs is over and they belong in a museum
Sounds like sour grapes to me...................
Yeah and it can land at an airport.Where is the Mars going to stay,
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arsenal
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Re: The Martin Mars is coming to nothern Alberta

Post by arsenal » Sat Jun 04, 2011 6:32 am

Ummmm...

It's going to stay on a lake?

How much do 4 CL415's cost?
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Re: The Martin Mars is coming to nothern Alberta

Post by sstaurus » Sat Jun 04, 2011 8:38 am

just curious wrote:If you're going to express views like that, shouldn't you be chaining your name to big compressor blades forever?
Just sayin'
:lol:
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Re: The Martin Mars is coming to nothern Alberta

Post by flyinggreasemonkey » Sat Jun 04, 2011 5:16 pm

Who gives a shit which bomber is better? It's a freaking forest fire...the more planes, the merrier.
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Re: The Martin Mars is coming to nothern Alberta

Post by Cat Driver » Sat Jun 04, 2011 6:44 pm

Some interesting opinions being posted here.

Fire requires three things to burn.

Fuel.

Heat.

Oxygen.

A properly delivered drop from a Mars will remove a whole lot of heat and the recovery of heat in the drop zone is in direct relation to the amount of heat suppressing material you deliver to the area.

At least that is what I am led to believe.
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Re: The Martin Mars is coming to nothern Alberta

Post by P180 » Sat Jun 04, 2011 7:23 pm

arsenal wrote:Ummmm...

It's going to stay on a lake?

How much do 4 CL415's cost?
And what lake would that be.This is not Ontario.
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Re: The Martin Mars is coming to nothern Alberta

Post by kiloindiapapa » Sat Jun 04, 2011 8:00 pm

Not sure what size it needs but there is Gregoire lake, a reclaimed pond near Syncrude, Kearl Lake, Namur, Mclleland and also the Athabasca River.
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Re: The Martin Mars is coming to nothern Alberta

Post by Zapp Brannigan » Sat Jun 04, 2011 8:16 pm

I read it will be based at Gregoire Lake.
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Re: The Martin Mars is coming to nothern Alberta

Post by All Sides » Sat Jun 04, 2011 8:43 pm

[quote][/quote]
And what lake would that be.This is not Ontario.[/quote]

Do you really think that ASRD would hire the MARS and not have a lake to operate out of?????? :roll:
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Re: The Martin Mars is coming to nothern Alberta

Post by Big Pistons Forever » Sat Jun 04, 2011 9:20 pm

co-joe wrote:Very cool. why does the Mars always come up as "the world's largest water bomber" when it can only scoop 27 000 Litres of water and the DC 10 can drop 12 000 gallons or 45 600 Litres? Just curious...

A distinction that is hardly ever made is that the MARS can only scoop 27000 litres when it is scooping from sea level on a relatively cool day and after some gas has been used. When the MARS was scooping out of Okanagan Lake flighting the 2003 Kelowna fires it was 36 degs C and obviously well above sea level They were only taking 10,000 lites a scoop and even then the aircraft would hardly climb, making for 747 size circuits. The conditions required such a down load that the massive micro climate changing drop that is the MARS specialty just was not there. The bottom politically incorrect line: CL415s were getting 4 drops for every one from the MARS and it was mostly just getting in the way.

Don't get me wrong I love big old piston pounders but the day of the MARS has passed. It thrived working the West Coast slash burning fires, but those days are over and trying to make it work in an environment it was never intended for is IMO a waste of tax payer dollars. It would be better to give it a dignified retirement at a good museum than flog it until it dies.
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Re: The Martin Mars is coming to nothern Alberta

Post by CLguy » Sun Jun 05, 2011 6:22 am

Big Pistons I couldn't agree more. It is the end of an era and a sad end at that, but the time has come. The Mars never scoops 27,000 ltrs (6,000 gal) anymore as the load has been reduced to about 20,000 lts (4,500 gal).

All Sides it certainly isn't sour grapes, but fact. In Kelowna it was the Mars Captain at the time who was keeping track and every day they worked with a 415, at the end of the day the 415 had delivered more water than the Mars. Believe me it doesn't take 4 415's to equal 1 Mars.

I feel sorry for the poor local fuel guy who will end up holding the bag for thousands of liters of unburned avgas that will be ordered to support the aircraft. It will get released, head back west and he will be there praying for a fleet of 172's to drop in for some fuel.
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Re: The Martin Mars is coming to nothern Alberta

Post by All Sides » Sun Jun 05, 2011 9:54 am

Well before we retire the old girl, lets first have a few facts.

The last I checked Coulson had a few of their own fuel trucks and equipment to do all their own fueling requirements, maybe it didn't get to Gregoire Lake yet? So don't think the local fuel operator should loose too much sleep.

Does a CL 415 carry a full load of foam/water (13500 lbs.) with full fuel with a density altitude of 4000 ft., that is what Kelowna would be at 1400 ft @ 36 C as quoted by BPF? Unless the 415 has special powers, I can't think of many aircraft that can carry a full pull of water till fuel is burned off.

What is the endurance of the CL 415 on a normal mission? I believe the MARS is in the neighborhood of 8 hours. Point being, that the MARS can stay on station bombing while the ducks have to go for a re-fuel.

I don't claim to be an expert on either A/C, I have no doubt that this thread isn't over yet. But there still is a lot of forest services that still seem interested in the MARS. Just to make one thing clear, I think the 415's certainly are an effective fire-fighting aircraft, but that doesn't necessarily eliminate the MARS effectiveness.

Will be interested to see what the operators have to say.
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Re: The Martin Mars is coming to nothern Alberta

Post by flyinhigh » Sun Jun 05, 2011 6:22 pm

Who cares, she's a beeeut.

I flew over her today on decent into YMM and all I can say is Wow.
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Re: The Martin Mars is coming to nothern Alberta

Post by sigmet77 » Mon Jun 06, 2011 5:26 am

I agree, who gives a crap for the term given to it, in the end it is a sweet flying machine. And Cat, fire needs 4 things: fuel, temperature, oxygen and a chemical chain reaction. They replaced the fire triangle with the fire tetrahedron years ago. See you can teach an old dog new tricks, haha.
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Re: The Martin Mars is coming to nothern Alberta

Post by Cat Driver » Mon Jun 06, 2011 7:29 am

Awesome sigmet, now I understand what I was doing all those years ago, I was slowing down the chain reaction thing. :mrgreen:
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