Landing long while another aircraft is on the runway

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bodyflyer
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Landing long while another aircraft is on the runway

Post by bodyflyer »

Is there anything stopping someone from landing past another aircraft on the runway, at an uncontrolled field?
Indeed, I can't see anything preventing two aircraft being on the runway at the same time.

(The thread viewtopic.php?f=54&t=72650&p=686414&hil ... ng#p686414 explored that latter issue a little.)

A typical example is for light aircraft at some longer runway with no taxiway. A/c 1 lands and starts to backtrack. A/c 2 is on final. It is probably a good idea to call that they have a/c 1 in sight, or also that they are landing "with the option" (?). That rightly keeps #1 from getting scared.

If #1 clears the runway in time, great, #2 can land. Otherwise, #2 would typically go around.

But is there any reason #1 can't land long, past the backtracking aircraft, to improve efficiency of operations?

It doesn't violate rules about risk of collision if one leaves space. I don't know what distance to keep between aircraft, or what rules there are for that. But it would seem to be reasonable to pass by the first aircraft by at leats 200 ft, similar to the distance between a holding point off the runway and the runway centreline.

Landing infront of the other aircraft (unless there are thousands of feet to spare) may scare the other pilot, since it appears hazardous and unexpected. But why not have #2 fly by #1, well off to the side of the runway, and then jink back to the runway and land? (Assuming there is time for a stabilized approach still.)

I think I've seen a pilot get upset about this sort of thing, thinking it is illegal, but I can't find what rules might have been broken. Unorthodox, yes. But not unsafe.

Just trying to understand how to fly more efficiently, while still being legal and conforming with reasonable norms.


I'm also having problems understanding the implications of the part of CAR 602.19 on right of way, which states:
(7) Where an aircraft is in flight or manoeuvring on the surface, the pilot-in-command of the aircraft shall give way to an aircraft that is landing or about to land.
That means you don't pull out onto the runway infront of someone about to touch down.
But we normally allow someone to land and backtrack before trying to land on the same runway. If you are in the circuit and following a bit close to let the landed aircraft clear the runway properly, you go around. But that CAR would imply you keep going and force the airplane on the runway to fast taxi to the far end or turn off into the grass -- although you can't create a hazard in any case. What allows a landed aircraft a reasonable opportunity to get clear of the aircraft behind? Before landing, the first aircraft had the right of way, and then suddenly it has lost it.

So I'm missing understanding something between that CAR and standard practice.
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BEFAN5
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Re: Landing long while another aircraft is on the runway

Post by BEFAN5 »

I found this one quite quickly... 602.21 No person shall operate an aircraft in such proximity to another aircraft as to create a risk of collision.

I can think of a number of reason having two aircraft on an active runway at one time could violate the above. The biggest one is assurance of point of landing. Imagine the lawsuits someone would face if I was back tracking down runway ## and some new Private pilot landing in gusty conditions misjudged his descent profile while practicing no flap landings with a nose up attitude, and landed smack on top of me.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USAir_Flight_1493 . In this case, a very experienced crew landed their 737 on top of a small commuter aircraft on the runway.
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RenegadeAV8R
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Re: Landing long while another aircraft is on the runway

Post by RenegadeAV8R »

bodyflyer wrote:Is there anything stopping someone from landing past another aircraft on the runway, at an uncontrolled field?
Indeed, I can't see anything preventing two aircraft being on the runway at the same time.

A typical example is for light aircraft at some longer runway with no taxiway. A/c 1 lands and starts to backtrack. A/c 2 is on final. It is probably a good idea to call that they have a/c 1 in sight, or also that they are landing "with the option" (?). That rightly keeps #1 from getting scared.

But is there any reason #1 can't land long, past the backtracking aircraft, to improve efficiency of operations?

It doesn't violate rules about risk of collision if one leaves space. I don't know what distance to keep between aircraft...

... But why not have #2 fly by #1, well off to the side of the runway, and then jink back to the runway and land? (Assuming there is time for a stabilized approach still.)

I think I've seen a pilot get upset about this sort of thing, thinking it is illegal, but I can't find what rules might have been broken. Unorthodox, yes. But not unsafe.

Just trying to understand how to fly more efficiently, while still being legal and conforming with reasonable norms.


I'm also having problems understanding the implications of the part of CAR 602.19 on right of way...

...
But that CAR would imply you keep going and force the airplane on the runway to fast taxi to the far end or turn off into the grass -- although you can't create a hazard in any case. What allows a landed aircraft a reasonable opportunity to get clear of the aircraft behind? Before landing, the first aircraft had the right of way, and then suddenly it has lost it.

So I'm missing understanding something between that CAR and standard practice.
:shock:

Everything you wrote show a lack of understanding of the Regulations and a total absence of airmanship.

Airmanship definition, from the AIM: Airmanship is the application of flying knowledge, skill and experience which fosters safe and efficient flying operations.

With all due respect, I really think that your ticket should be pulled.
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Shiny Side Up
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Re: Landing long while another aircraft is on the runway

Post by Shiny Side Up »

But is there any reason #1 can't land long, past the backtracking aircraft, to improve efficiency of operations?
Next time you're on final behind someone at a controlled airport ask the tower if you can do this. Tell them it will help their "efficiency". Then come back here and tell us what they say.
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wirez
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Re: Landing long while another aircraft is on the runway

Post by wirez »

Reminds me of a few weeks ago when I was at YPQ. On final for runway 09, an aircraft all of a sudden started taking off against traffic (3 aircraft landing in the circuit) towards us! I could not believe what the crazy f**ker was doing. Wasn't able to get his callsign unfortunately.
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erics2b
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Re: Landing long while another aircraft is on the runway

Post by erics2b »

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bodyflyer
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Re: Landing long while another aircraft is on the runway

Post by bodyflyer »

I'm OK with someone essentially saying that I'm an idiot, but I can't learn much about the interplay of the CARs, AIM, and aviation norms without something more concrete...

As for 602.21 about creating a hazard, I thought that was being taken care of by not landing towards an aircraft on the ground (unless it was thousands of feet down the runway), nor overflying it directly at low altitude. Instead, flying off to the side, before landing past the aircraft.

My idea is not a courteous tactic at all if a whole bunch of aircraft are in the circuit, as the third guy might set his circuit size based on expecting everyone to land fairly short and have a short backtrack, and then be surprised that I (as #2) had landed rather long past #1. The whole flow of aircraft would get messed up.

A similar concern about hazards occurs during a go around. I'm on approach, another aircraft turns onto the near end of the runway and has some sort of a delay. At what point do I call a go around? I'm not going to zoom 50' over him and scare the crap out of him, no matter my piloting skills, but can I continue my approach until 200' off the deck? Or what number of feet is acceptable? That's another topic but it is similar in the issues of apparent hazards and what is normal or not, and what is going to make another pilot uncomfortable.

As for
Next time you're on final behind someone at a controlled airport ask the tower if you can do this. Tell them it will help their "efficiency"
ATC standards for separation tend to be different; they can be very inefficient for light aircraft by being over conservative; and one takes what one gets with them. Normal ATC isn't like Oshkosh...
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BEFAN5
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Re: Landing long while another aircraft is on the runway

Post by BEFAN5 »

bodyflyer wrote: ATC standards for separation tend to be different; they can be very inefficient for light aircraft by being over conservative; and one takes what one gets with them. Normal ATC isn't like Oshkosh...
These "inefficient" and "over conservative" separations are a result of lost lives.

I think a few years of experience will answer all of your questions.
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Old Dog Flying
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Re: Landing long while another aircraft is on the runway

Post by Old Dog Flying »

bodyflyer: I don't know what level of experience you might have but I can assure you that if you ever pull this shit with me, you will wish that you had taken up knitting. I've been flying for nearly 60 years and spent near 50 of those years in ATC and your statements are totally out to lunch

You are a complete moron and should be turned over to Enforcement as a potential hazard to flight safety.

If you fly in the YVR area watch your 6 o'clock
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tailgunner
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Re: Landing long while another aircraft is on the runway

Post by tailgunner »

We used to do this all the time in ne bc. There was no apron nor turn around bay at the end of the oil field strip, so we would land over and beyond the navajos, king airs, and metros that were loading and unloading at the end. It was understood as being an sop for three or four of the strips.
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iflyforpie
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Re: Landing long while another aircraft is on the runway

Post by iflyforpie »

There is no problem with operating practically any way you want on an uncontrolled airstrip provided:

All parties involved have agreed to or understand what you are doing and...

There is no safety or collision risk.

We don't worry about crashing into houses off the end when landing short, why should we be worried about aircraft underneath us landing long? You could even sidestep a bit to make sure.
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justwall
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Re: Landing long while another aircraft is on the runway

Post by justwall »

I'm not sure about uncontrolled but here is the rules for controlled that us controllers have to standby. Make a smart decision considering these factors.
Manops 352.2
Separate an arriving aircraft from a preceding aircraft using the same runway by ensuring that the arriving aircraft does not cross the landing threshold until one of the following conditions exists:
A. the preceding aircraft has landed and taxied off the runway; (D)
B. the preceding aircraft has landed or is over the landing runway; and (D)
1. is at a distance from the threshold sufficient to allow the arriving aircraft to complete its landing roll without jeopardizing safety; (R)
2. will leave the runway at a suitable exit without stopping or backtracking and; (N)
3. the arriving aircraft is advised of the preceding aircraft's position and intentions; (P)
C. the preceding aircraft is airborne; and 1. is at a sufficient distance from the threshold that the arriving aircraft will not overtake it during the landing roll or conflict with it in the event of a missed
approach; or (D)
2. has turned to avoid any conflict with the arriving aircraft in the event of a missed approach. (D)

Controllers are cautioned to take into consideration the aircraft types, their performance, the runway condition, available exits and other factors that may impact on the operation.
352.2 B. 2. Note 2:
The sufficient distance depicted in 352.2 B. Diagram need not be equal to the anticipated stopping distance of the second aircraft, provided the second aircraft is a light aircraft and you are satisfied no danger of collision exists.
352.2 B. 3. Phraseology:
(type of aircraft) (location) EXITING TO THE RIGHT/ON A TOUCH-AND-GO/(other), CLEARED TO LAND RUNWAY (number).


352.3
Separate a departing aircraft from a preceding aircraft using the same runway by ensuring that it does not begin take-off roll until one of the following conditions exists: (R)
A. the preceding aircraft has landed and taxied off the runway, or there is every assurance that it will vacate the runway by the time the departure starts the take-off roll; (D)
B. the preceding aircraft has departed; and (D)
2.
has turned to clear the departure path; or has reached a point on the departure path where it will not conflict with the succeeding aircraft.
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AJV
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Re: Landing long while another aircraft is on the runway

Post by AJV »

think about it, really. How much time is this going to save? 2-3 mins of a circuit? dude just wait till the guy on the runways is done and gone and then it is all yours.
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whiteguy
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Re: Landing long while another aircraft is on the runway

Post by whiteguy »

tailgunner wrote:We used to do this all the time in ne bc. There was no apron nor turn around bay at the end of the oil field strip, so we would land over and beyond the navajos, king airs, and metros that were loading and unloading at the end. It was understood as being an sop for three or four of the strips.

And it still happens! Anyone ever been into Helmut?
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PanEuropean
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Re: Landing long while another aircraft is on the runway

Post by PanEuropean »

Y'know, when I read threads like this on AvCanada, it almost makes me want to give up on this forum entirely.

The original poster (BodyFlyer) asked an interesting question and provided reasons both for and against the proposed maneuver. His first post was well written and obviously he had thought things out on both sides of the argument. It was a very reasonable question... not everyone here has 20 years professional experience in the industry.

Along come a bunch of people with absolutely nothing constructive to add to the question - but they have a keyboard in front of them and are armed with the bravado that comes from total anonymity - and they post a number of totally useless and discourteous remarks, for example:
RenegadeAV8R wrote:...I really think that your ticket should be pulled.
Shiny Side Up wrote:Next time you're on final behind someone at a controlled airport ask the tower if you can do this.
BEFAN5 wrote:I think a few years of experience will answer all of your questions.
Old Dog Flying wrote:You are a complete moron and should be turned over to Enforcement as a potential hazard to flight safety.
Whatever happened to intelligent, civil discussion? More to the point, whatever happened to people simply observing the keyboard equivalent of "keeping their their mouth shut" if they don't have anything useful to contribute to a conversation?

There is some hope, though... Thanks to 'Justwall' for posting that excerpt from the MANOPS. It was interesting to read and shows that the controllers do have quite a bit of discretion in matters similar to what BodyFlyer was asking about.

Michael
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Re: Landing long while another aircraft is on the runway

Post by TTJJ »

PanEuropean beat me to it.

This site, nay our own group, is at times reprehensible.

The OP, (whom upon reading his/her other posts seems most likely to be not a pilot but a parachuter), asked a valid question of those who supposedly would or could clarify a simple issue. He/she said, “I think I've seen a pilot get upset about this sort of thing, thinking it is illegal", suggesting that the OP really was sincere in their question.

And what do we do? We trash this person. Worse yet, we say their ticket, (which they probably don't have anyway) should be pulled.

How quaint.

Newbees will avoid asking questions of us if they are convinced they will be publically ridiculed don't you think?
And if they cannot ask questions nor seek guidance on an Industry specific forum from their peers, from where will they receive the information and more importantly the feedback necessary to not perpetuate errors and myths?
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Tim
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Re: Landing long while another aircraft is on the runway

Post by Tim »

i would consider doing this in a light single provided i had discussed it on the ground with other pilot ahead of time as i would consider this at the very least some type of formation flying. i can tell you that if i was ever on the ground and someone flew over me like this without my prior knowledge and consent i would haul them out of their cockpit by the collar to ask them very loudly what they were doing then report them to enforcement.
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Re: Landing long while another aircraft is on the runway

Post by hz2p »

would consider this at the very least some type of formation flying
Really?
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Re: Landing long while another aircraft is on the runway

Post by cdnpilot77 »

hz2p wrote:
would consider this at the very least some type of formation flying
Really?
Read Hedleys argument in the thread posted earlier by EricS2B in this thread
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hz2p
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Re: Landing long while another aircraft is on the runway

Post by hz2p »

Read Hedleys argument
But sometimes he's not a nice person, so nothing he said is important or true.
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