Seasonal Pilots - Do you get Overtime & Benefits?

[180]

Actually no, I don't.

Maybe you shouldn't be mixing pharmaceuticals and Whiskey Indanao.

[phillyfan]

How did the meeting go? Everybody gettin benefits yet? or are you still waiting for anonymous Avcanada posts giving you the courage to knock on the door?

[Indanao]

Actually no, I don't.

Maybe you shouldn't be mixing pharmaceuticals and Whiskey Indanao.

Hey yeah...gonna try that !

[180]

God forbid anyone should do anything to improve the industry, hey Philly and Andanao.

Anonymity, when used constructively, is one of the beauty's of this site. It let's us get to the bottom of questions like the poll on this thread. Do you think if everybody had their name and company posted under their avatar that there would be 21 votes on this forum right now, with 91% of the voters saying that yes, this is a problem in their company too?

The answer is no.

And that is exactly why I started this thread, to find out how prevalent this issue was across the 703 board.

I did it for information, not courage.

Do they sell mirrors where you live Philly?

[DHCdriver]

Phillyfan and Indanao, you two dicks just made my ignore list, your both pathetic. And we wonder why this industry is the way it is. DHC

[Indanao]

Phillyfan and Indanao, you two dicks just made my ignore list, your both pathetic. And we wonder why this industry is the way it is. DHC

..it seems you would have a hard time getting the gist of a conversation ?


In a pluralistic political system, which is composed of a variety of interest groups, if you don't have a group with a strong voice you get ignored.

Organized labour is one of those interest groups, and the organization starts from the grass routes. So, yes it is commendable for someone to take a stand and start things rolling.

But for a guy like DHC to give lip service, reminds me of the guys that are with you right up to the end, then they may choose to duck out the back door and shoot you in the back on the way. I cannot see why an anonymous pole changes if a guy would admit to not getting benefits...but I digress.

[phillyfan]

DHC Driver and 180, you clueless idiots. The only people that benefit from your movement are pilots who fly year round in the bush. What percentage of pilots do you think that covers. Are you going to give benefits to all the seasonal float pilots too? In addition to the fact that 95% of float and ski pilots are just just young guys and girls building time. Most don't have families and if they stick around for more then 4 years in the bush it will be a miracle. This movement/idea is not worth even one minute of your time. It's a stupid idea.
Benefits might benefit you personally, but the entire single engine bush industry can't be painted with the same brush. When I was 22 years old working 6 months a year. I didn't give a shit about a dental plan for a kid I didn't have and I am guessing that most 20 something year olds flying in shithole northern towns are not going to stick around in LaRonge or Pickle Lake until 2055 for the pension plan.
I have benefits, which I asked for after I had a kid. I suggest you do the same if you think you might need them.

[MrWings]

Why are people bashing a guy trying to get people the OT they deserve and benefit perks on top of that?

The only reason I can come up with is that they are operators themselves. Otherwise, why does it upset them with such vitriol?

[jetboy]

With regards to the Overtime question, the entire Aviation Industry is governed by the employment standards and labour code of Canada. In this legislation it is dicted that an employee who works over 8 hours a day or 40 hours per week be compensated for their time at 1.5 times of regular pay.

There is however an avergaging provision. This provision allows employers to average these hours (2080 a year) over a period of time if:
there must be operational necessity (i.e., the nature of the work must necessitate an irregular distribution of the hours of work of an employee); and
there must be an absence of regularly scheduled hours or regularly scheduled hours must differ from time to time.

I agree that work in excess of 8/40 be paid overtime, but unfortunately, as seasonal employers there is the loop hole to average your hours worked in a season over a period of a year. If you can prove that you have indeed worked more than 2080 hrs in a period of a year with an employer you are entitled to overtime by law, otherwise, working for a seasonal operator, you will have a difficult time collecting.

Something also to remember with Overtime Averaging is that if your employer is eligable to apply overtime averaging and you leave on your own, the company does not owe you any overtime.

However, if you are terminated or laid off by the employer, the employee is entitled to overtime pay for all hours worked in excess of 40 times the number of weeks in the completed part of the averaging period. I do not believe this counts for seasonal layoffs as you are laid off with the intention of returning the next year (leave of Absence), but someone may want to look into that further.

Now I've been fortunate enough to work for an operator who paid me overtime while on the ramp (as well as benefits) but paid a rate plus mileage for flying. I think during my season with them I had one, maybe 2 14 hr duty days while flying, but the mileage rate earned those days was way higher than may ramp OT rate, even if you calculated all 14 hrs as ot.

I believe the rational for pilots is that there are limitations (ok, well regulations, maybe not common practise) on flight and duty times that suggest that its very unlikely that you work more than 2080 hours a year. Best word of advice is that you should keep track of your duty time and if you work more than 2080 hours a year then there may be a case to legally pursue overtime.

I think you should take a better look at the averaging system. What you are saying is only slightly true. First off Labour Canada has to approve your averaging system. They would never approve it if I went to them and said I was an operator that only operates 4 months of the year and would like to pay my employees overtime after 2080 hours. They may approve overtime being paid after 693.2 hours worked in a four month period, but more likely they would approve overtime being paid at the end of each month. This comes from hours on the phone with Labour Canada.

Harbour Air pays overtime based on an averaging system. They get paid time and a half after anything over 173.3 hour per month. For sick days and vacation days your overtime threshold would be reduced by 8 hours for every day you are away. If you take 2 sick days and 5 vacation days in a month then you would get paid overtime after 117.3 hours that month.

[DHCdriver]

DHC Driver and 180, you clueless idiots.

I think you forgot to include yourself. Why is it so wrong for a working person(not just pilots) to ask for something that they are entitled to? It's the law, no two ways about it. Cadismack already talked about it.

This movement/idea is not worth even one minute of your time. It's a stupid idea.

It can't be that stupid your getting benefits. Benefits would be a added bonus,something that could be worked out for long term pilots. But why would these guys stay season after season, when these operators are stealing money from them. Pay them a salary and then work the shit out of them. I know, I was once there. 4 out of 5 operators I worked for over 13 years stole money from me and finally that was enough got my AA's and never looked back. I'll never go back to the float world as long as there are guys like you and your friend kissing the asses of your bosses. Sad real sad. 180 and I will keep supporting the young guys and hopefully get these operators to start paying what these pilots have coming to them. DHC

[180]

Why are people bashing a guy trying to get people the OT they deserve and benefit perks on top of that? Why does it upset you with such vitriol?

I've been asking myself the same question for the last 3 days?

But what do I know, apparently I'm just a clueless idiot with my tail between my legs?

Man, are some of the people in this industry ever weird...

[180]

And by the way haters 1 & 2, the irony hasn't escaped us that the two of you, the most vocal opponents to seasonal pilot getting paid legally and perhaps receiving some benefits, are firstly, a senior manager (possibly owner?) at a small 703 operation who receives benefits and overtime , and secondly, a 61 year old pilot with a self-proclaimed golden parachute after 20 years with canada Post who undoubtedly was paid overtime and who probably enjoyed some of the countries best benefits too .

[Indanao]

And by the way haters 1 & 2, the irony hasn't escaped us that the two of you, the most vocal opponents to seasonal pilot getting paid legally and perhaps receiving some benefits, are firstly, a senior manager (possibly owner?) at a small 703 operation who receives benefits and overtime , and secondly, a 61 year old pilot with a self-proclaimed golden parachute after 20 years with Canada Post who undoubtedly was paid overtime and who probably enjoyed some of the countries best benefits too .

Why are people bashing a guy trying to get people the OT they deserve and benefit perks on top of that? Why does it upset you with such vitriol?

I've been asking myself the same question for the last 3 days?

But what do I know, apparently I'm just a clueless idiot with my tail between my legs?

Man, are some of the people in this industry ever weird...

Quite right. You work full time you get benefits, I have never gotten benefits when Part Time. ( that has changed with some companies ) Have you made half as much noise to your employer as you did here? Go for it, it's for the good of all.

( It occurs to me that if your a Part Time Seasonal Pilot, and you get Part Time Benefits, that you would be away all summer long getting your teeth fixed ?)


It's a bit immature of you to make this personal - but that is your choice.

[Indanao]

Phillyfan and Indanao, you two dicks just made my ignore list, your both pathetic. And we wonder why this industry is the way it is. DHC

Why am I not on your Ignore List ? I didn't do anything wrong...

[YOWza]

I would bet that not one of those pilots behind you will give two shits after you lose you job standing up for what is right.

+1

If you haven't experienced this concept, you will learn it the hard way.

[180]

Man, it's hard not to get caught up in all the superfluous BS in this thread.

Sticking to the facts, I have to say thank you to Jetboy for the following FACTS about overtime regarding seasonal pilots:

Labour Canada has to approve your averaging system. They would never approve it if I went to them and said I was an operator that only operates 4 months of the year and would like to pay my employees overtime after 2080 hours. They may approve overtime being paid after 693.2 hours worked in a four month period, but more likely they would approve overtime being paid at the end of each month. This comes from hours on the phone with Labour Canada.

I honestly thought when I started this thread, that there would be 2 camps:

1. Those that didn't get overtime and benefits and who wished they did, and

2. Those that do get paid overtime and receive benefits who would sympathize with those that didn't.

The third camp that has sprung up,

3. Those that receive overtime and benefits but don't believe anyone else should receive them, and can't wait to see my ass get fired for broaching the subjects with my boss so they can say 'I told you so',

has really thrown me for a loop.

I'm at a loss to even imagine what planet group 3 comes from? They don't seem very humane to me.

In hindsight, I shouldn't have lumped a prerogative and a privilege into the same poll, so to clear the air regarding where I stand:

Overtime is OUR prerogative.

Benefits are a privilege, and just like respect and trust, should be earned, not just handed out.

It's up to the senior guys to stand up for the rights of all the junior guys at your individual companies.

If you have a great boss, chip in this Christmas and buy him a nice Christmas present and write him a heartfelt thank you letter.

And to those of you in Group 3, , 2 thumbs up, you really make the world a better place.

[co-joe]

I was always under the impression that salaried pilots/ employees are not eligible to receive overtime pay regardless of how many hours they work. This averaging thing, do you mean to say all those years I worked 30 on 3 off in the 703 world I could have been getting or been eligible to receive more than my salary? What about rotational work?

[DHCdriver]

I was always under the impression that salaried pilots/ employees are not eligible to receive overtime pay regardless of how many hours they work. This averaging thing, do you mean to say all those years I worked 30 on 3 off in the 703 world I could have been getting or been eligible to receive more than my salary? What about rotational work?

No that is not true, you are eligitable provided you have not signed a contract(s). Look up Federal labour laws online it will help abit, your best bet is make a call and ask some questions and you will be suprised what you here. If your going to stand up for yourself, you are going to lose your job( its just reality). Make sure you have documentation of duty times or you don't stand a chance. If your not willing to go that far then find a job that will pay you what is fare and what your happy with, piss on your former employer he's screwing you anyway. DHC

[Cadismack]

First I want to say that I am not an advocate of the overtime averaging system. I think its a crock but after questioning it myself I discovered that there are some sneaky ways for the employer to justify their actions. I agree with Jetboy and feel the way that some operators apply the averaging system is wrong (seasonal ops), but they tend to hide behind that rule and it discourages the average person from fighting it.

co-joe wrote:
I was always under the impression that salaried pilots/ employees are not eligible to receive overtime pay regardless of how many hours they work. This averaging thing, do you mean to say all those years I worked 30 on 3 off in the 703 world I could have been getting or been eligible to receive more than my salary? What about rotational work?

No that is not true, you are eligitable provided you have not signed a contract(s). Look up Federal labour laws online it will help abit, your best bet is make a call and ask some questions and you will be suprised what you here. If your going to stand up for yourself, you are going to lose your job( its just reality). Make sure you have documentation of duty times or you don't stand a chance. If your not willing to go that far then find a job that will pay you what is fare and what your happy with, piss on your former employer he's screwing you anyway. DHC

Co-joe, were you working all of those 30 days or were you on call for 30 days? I personally don't agree with it, but I think only duty hours would work towards your 2080 hours a year and the overtime you would be allowed to collect. Time spent on call is not hours worked (although I have been on call in a medevac ops and I agree that even though the company doesn't think on call is work time, its certainly not time off either, but thats another problem with the industry).

And DHC isn't quite right either. No, I am not getting a hate on, but I have actually been on the other end of the stick, in a different industry, working with an overtime averaging agreement for salaried employees. Granted, I will admit that this was provincial labour laws and governed differently from the federal laws that govern aviation, but I think the message is the same.

The company I worked at was being audited for our employees working a 2 week in 2 week out 12 hours a day rotation. We paid our employees a good salary which we came up by averaging their hours over a year. I forget the figures, but we paid employees X dollars an hour and because of their schedule they worked over 2100 hrs a year, their salary was X an hour for 2080 and the extra hours at 1.5X.

We thought we were doing our employees a favour because, instead of just paying them one big pay check for when they worked, we gave them a regular semi monthly check based on their annual salary. If someone was asked to work an extra week, they were paid an overtime rate for all hours worked in addition to their regular salary pay.

In the audit the labour relations people weren't questioning the salary, or the overtime agreement, but they were very concerned with our employment contracts. In that contract we only included the employee's salary for the year and didn't mention how we were averaging an hourly rate over the year and that the salary actually included some overtime. They wanted us to go back and pay every employee their overtime based on their hourly wage that they had signed in the contract (Salary/2080). When it was explained to them how we came up with the salary figure, they told us that that was fine, but an employment contract cannot break labour law and because we were pushing back, they wanted us to pay every employee the overtime we owed them every week because our employment contract was invalid. Essentially, because we didn't mention the averaging in our contract, even though we had a valid agreement, they wanted us to back pay overtime for every employee we had based on a 8 and 40 hour work week. Major mula!

From my experience with Labour Relations, no employment contract can break the law, period. Signed or otherwise. Even if you've signed a contract saying you don't get paid overtime it is not a legal contract because it does break the law. Some professionals (like accountants and managers) are also entitled to overtime. Its common practise that these people are not paid overtime in addition to their salary 'because its an expectation of their job'. If these people were to keep track of their time the would also have a case with labour relations, but most don't because they don't want to rock the boat and justify their lack of overtime with things like bonus'.

I could probably go on and on with regards to this, but if you want to collect your overtime (and likely loose your job for rocking the boat), contact a good labour lawyer and see if you have a case. If enough people can successfully do this we can either change the industry or sink some companies. You have the right to collect overtime if its owed to you, however, if you are happy with what you make, or don't want to rock the boat, there's no one who'll fight the battle for you. Unless you get a union, but thats a different ball of wax. Its unfortunate for the young guys out there being taken advantage of and its a big reason why I got out. Now I get paid overtime and make enough money to buy my own small plane and fly where and when I want. Its all about choice.

Sorry, just read over this again and realized that I was being a bit harsh. My intention is not to be an advocate for the owner, but to hopefully bring to light some of the obstacles out there that make it difficult to change. There are some barriers out there and the 'rocking the boat' reference is more of a warning to be careful and fully committed should you make waves. I wish I had the balls to do it. I worked for a skydive operator that had me sign a contract for a really pitiful salary to be on the drop zone 7 days a week for 6 months. I wish I had the balls to confront the owner about his pitiful pay and poor working conditions, but he had more resources then me if I wanted to fight it (he was a lawyer too) and I was able to start my own private business doing something else in my free time that actually paid me double what he did so I was able to make the best of the flight time I got while being there. Please accept my words of encouragement and I hope that you can do something to make things better for the industry. I wish i could think of the best way of doing it and hopefully one day I will

[Beefitarian]

http://www.ceridian.ca/guide/legislatio ... dards.html

There's no contract that can over ride the legislated right to over time pay, even if you're on salary.