College of Pilots

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College of Pilots

Post by Doc » Mon Jan 02, 2012 11:49 pm

Oh where, oh where did it go? Any and all mention of the "College of Pilots" seems to have gone the way of the dodo bird. There were some pretty GUNG HO fans (of which I was not one) of this concept. Is it still circling the drain....or has it gone down with the Titanic?
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Re: College of Pilots

Post by azimuthaviation » Tue Jan 03, 2012 1:01 am

Nothing would replace TC as a licensing or accrediting body so what would be the point? Another association fee to pay every year?
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Re: College of Pilots

Post by Prairie Chicken » Tue Jan 03, 2012 5:12 am

I spoke to one of the guys in August & he indicated it was slow going but they were still moving forward. They were hoping to get their web site up by the end of the year but I haven't heard that has happened yet.
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Re: College of Pilots

Post by 126.75 » Tue Jan 03, 2012 5:42 am

Hey DOC, while I am not involved with the college I am following it's progression. They are hoping to release their website in the very near future. I for one want to give these guys a chance. They are pilots who at the end of they day want what is best for our profession. The college will only be as good as we all make it. Are you tired of how our industry has been in a downward spiral for the past 15 years? Instead of complain about how this group won't do this or that let's all try and make the best of it.

http://www.collegeofpilots.ca/
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Re: College of Pilots

Post by Liquid Charlie » Tue Jan 03, 2012 6:02 am

The one issue they are dealing with right now is that pilots do not have "professional" standing by definition. This requires legislation to be passed and from my source it is being worked on. I know we all consider ourselves professionals but unfortunately that is not good enough --

The process is stalled until this issue is resolved -
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Re: College of Pilots

Post by TomM » Tue Jan 03, 2012 7:24 am

Hello Doc et al,

History is made, this is my first post on this forum.

Anyway, the College is still working toward its goal of staying "above the drain" :) progress has been slow, primarily due to the fact that it is an organization of volunteers and unfortunately the group has had its unfair share of personal challenges over the past year (family and health- life stuff).

We have had our most recent board meeting in Nov of 2011 and at that point we decided to continue on.

Lately we have been focused on ensuring our message is clear and restarting the process of engaging stakeholders- industry, industry associations, government (both MPs and TCCA) and of course pilots. We admit that the level of communication has been low thus allowing the opportunity for incorrect info to be circulated. We hope to address that very soon with the re-introduction of our new website.

Since the last discussions on here, we have truly defined what it is that we are attempting to do. In essence, we cannot really call ourselves "professionals" in the true sense of the term. Professionals are self governing, mentor one another, have codes of conduct and a college or society that provides the previously mentioned items. When you consider that flying for a living is less than 100 years old, our progress has really been quite fast.

The primary thrust of our efforts is around mentoring. We hope to create a resource base of "best practices" surrounding the full range of subjects that are of interest to pilots and the support of pilots. Things like advanced training techniques, CRM, TEM, human performance in flight operations, alcohol and substance abuse support practices, financial aid, scholarship and networking opportunities to move around from one job to the next. That's just a snapshot, but I hope you get the idea. All pilots would have access to this information and we envision online information and perhaps regional and national meetings to share the latest and greatest as time progresses.

Admittedly, our board is over-biased with airline types. Perhaps it is because that on the whole we have been in the business longer than most and have seen the evolution of piloting. We want to give back. In many ways the College is really for people that haven't entered the industry yet. We want to help possible new entrants see the value in becoming a pilot. Isn't it sad that so many of us wouldn't advise our kids to become pilots? We also hope to add board members from other facets of the industry. Anyone interested??

One last thing. This is NOT a union. Colleges do not create national seniority lists, they don't set wages or working conditions or any of that sort of industrial/ labour type topics. They promote their professions through the behaviour of their members and help their members to be the best they can be.

I hope this helps. I promise to pop back frequently to see if clarification is necessary. Watch our webspace for updates from the current "under revision" banner.

Sincerely,

Tom Machum
CPPC President.
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Re: College of Pilots

Post by Brown Bear » Tue Jan 03, 2012 8:20 am

Wages and working conditions as I see it are the largest hurdles facing pilots today. Included in working conditions would be the slavery system aka bonds and paying for jobs. Address these issues and you may find a following. If not, why bother?
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Re: College of Pilots

Post by Localizer » Tue Jan 03, 2012 8:35 am

Its called "baby steps" Brown Bear .. I think there are a lot of hurdles to get over before WAWCON can be addressed. I'm in support of the CPPC, almost anything is better than the current direction we're all heading.
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Re: College of Pilots

Post by flyinthebug » Tue Jan 03, 2012 9:50 am

TomM...

Thank you for all the updates and information. I am very pleased to see you clarify your differences from a union. The college, as you have described, is far from a union. This will make some happy and some not so happy. For me personally, I like your model and wish you (all) nothing but success with all your future endeavours.

You are correct as well in pointing out that aviation as a career is still in its infancy. In time and with dedication from people like yourself, you should accomplish the goal.

If you guys ever decide you want any of us bush types on your team...let me know. I might be interested in volunteering some time to the cause!

Cheers & all the best to everyone at the CPPC.
Fly safe all
FTB
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Re: College of Pilots

Post by Mig29 » Tue Jan 03, 2012 10:54 am

Just go another AC forum and see how unionized and loyal is our profession and you'll see how and why this CPPC is going to be a struggle if not impossible.
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Re: College of Pilots

Post by 172pilot » Tue Jan 03, 2012 11:08 am

Unless there is a way to limit the amount of CPL's being issued, how can you ever solve the problem of too many pilots for the amount of jobs available when it's a government issued license that has little restrictions to obtain.
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Re: College of Pilots

Post by osprey747 » Tue Jan 03, 2012 12:27 pm

...one thing that I hope this body will take on (wishful on my part) is issuing "official" and recognized certificates (i.e. certifying times in logbooks)... and yes - I know in most western minded countries a simple stamp in the logbook and signature from the Chief Pilot is recognized...
I was offered an upgrade/promotion in a Pacific-rim country a couple of years ago but couldn't produce the certificate (certification of my hours in the left seat) from Transport Canada (of course)... (yes - we know that FAA, CAAs, JAAs, TCs don't police or certify log books, blah, blah, blah...)... the gov't body in that country in the end, wouldn't approve the upgrade simply over a paperwork issue (wouldn't accept a previous company letter or a "stamped" logbook...)...

Many of us are working overseas but are doing this based on our Canadian Lic's and/or experience... Hopefully this body can help address some of these issues (for those of us who keep our Canadian lic's current, etc...), but have to work overseas due to the job market in Canada...

Here's to hoping, anyways... (back to typing up resumes...)
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Re: College of Pilots

Post by Localizer » Tue Jan 03, 2012 1:33 pm

Osprey747,

I don't know how anyone could possibly keep track of all Canadian pilots logged hours, or legitimately certify them for that matter. That would be a massive undertaking and use a lot of resources.

It sounds like the country/company you were trying to operate in/for was putting the screws to you.
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Re: College of Pilots

Post by osprey747 » Tue Jan 03, 2012 2:28 pm

Localizer - believe it or not, some "far eastern" countries are this "particular" with paperwork and endless certification stamps...
You're probably right (it would be more trouble than what it's worth).
Unfortunately - our logbook is one of our only representations of our experience...
It was my own problem (big problem) in this case, and there was simply no way around it...

In this case, I needed a letter confirming all my experience in the left seat and I couldn't get it (they wanted it from a Government agency and wouldn't hear of anything else...). Yup - my problem... and I chose to leave Canada, etc...

I would be interested in supporting such an idea as a professional body of pilots (even paying fees), if it had a branch to support "expat" Canadian pilots (legal advice, tax advice, licensing issues, contract review...), but maybe this is getting outside the scope of the intention of such... (never mind)
(there's a lot of us... if you think of all the Canadians in the middle East, Cathay, other HKG entities, and other exotic locales...)...

Further to this (back to my story): a Japanese Capt with less time and less experience than I had, who was also an "expat" in this country managed to get his Pilots' Association to provide the necessary certificates, letters and certification stamps - and - got the upgrade...
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Re: College of Pilots

Post by cncpc » Tue Jan 03, 2012 3:30 pm

osprey747 wrote:...one thing that I hope this body will take on (wishful on my part) is issuing "official" and recognized certificates (i.e. certifying times in logbooks)... and yes - I know in most western minded countries a simple stamp in the logbook and signature from the Chief Pilot is recognized...
I was offered an upgrade/promotion in a Pacific-rim country a couple of years ago but couldn't produce the certificate (certification of my hours in the left seat) from Transport Canada (of course)... (yes - we know that FAA, CAAs, JAAs, TCs don't police or certify log books, blah, blah, blah...)... the gov't body in that country in the end, wouldn't approve the upgrade simply over a paperwork issue (wouldn't accept a previous company letter or a "stamped" logbook...)...

Many of us are working overseas but are doing this based on our Canadian Lic's and/or experience... Hopefully this body can help address some of these issues (for those of us who keep our Canadian lic's current, etc...), but have to work overseas due to the job market in Canada...

Here's to hoping, anyways... (back to typing up resumes...)
I suspect the "certificate" they were looking for had Benjamin Franklin's picture on it.
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Re: College of Pilots

Post by cncpc » Tue Jan 03, 2012 3:52 pm

Even though an old friend of mine was one of the first to come on here and advocate for this, and lost his job with Harbour Air as a result, I wasn't really keen on the idea as I understood it. Not disputing the problems in the career, I just didn't like the tone of it then, this idea that we would get our licenses from a private organization, that pilot numbers would be restrained, and the union tone of it, although I'm actually quite in favor of unions for some things.

Tom's post casts a different light on it. Let me light another match in that regard. You are right about the professional designation. But have a look at who are "professionals". Doctors, Dentists, Lawyers, Accountants, and teachers, I think. The social interests protected by professionals are life and health, freedom and wealth, or commercial activity is perhaps a better term. Pilots protect the social interest of life and health. That is the fundamental basis for a claim of professionalism. You are very right to add to that mentoring, and you can, if you wish, add to that a certification. What certification? There is nothing stopping the College from issuing a certification above and beyond the pilot licence, as the accounting body issues a CA, or CGA above and beyond a commerce or business admin degree, or the law societies issue the right to call oneself a barrister or a solicitor, above and beyond being someone who simply has a law degree.

Use these designations as an ISO type quality mark. Then market them to the users of commercial air services. Use what is called a pull strategy. Have your customers demanding only pilots with these certifications. When that demand becomes strong enough, then operators will feel a strong pressure to only hire pilots with these certifications. And so we move forward.

None of this requires the approval of government, and none of it requires anybody to join an organization under compulsion. The College becomes simply an organization with a mission of educating and certifying pilots beyond the minimal standard now operating, on the belief that there will be a public preference for those pilots bearing accredition from the College over those who do not have it. This doesn't necessarily mean College pilots are the best, but it does provide pretty strong assurance they won't be the worst.

I'm glad to see that the thought process now recognizes that there is a difference between scratching one's ass and ripping it to shreds. It's one thing to say the College will work towards better pilot training and standards and compensation, but another to say that in the future it will control every aspect of one's pilot career, including whether one even has a career.

Let the marketplace demand better pilots, and make the pitch that the College's standards, training programs, and accreditations lead to better pilots, and you will accomplish everything and more than you would accomplish by trying to have your unilaterally declared kingdom rule over everyone.
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Re: College of Pilots

Post by TomM » Tue Jan 03, 2012 5:38 pm

Good evening,

Some follow up given the responses to my comments.

Brown Bear- I agree that WAWCON is a big issue for a lot of pilots. Unfortunately, this is outside the scope of the College.

172 Pilot- the College has no interest in limiting the number of commercial pilots. If anything the projections by Boeing and Airbus show a serious pilot shortage in the not too distant future even if their projections are out by a country mile! Also, the retirement numbers here in Canada are going to increase in the not too distant future.

Osprey747- if you have a Canadian Comm or ATPL, fixed or rotary, you would be eligible for membership in the College. I will forward your comments to the board for consideration, you make interesting points. What we hope to offer for Expats remains to be determined...

CNCPC- I have been involved with the College as a board member since the spring of 2009 when the first board was appointed, shortly after the College was registered as a not for profit corporation with Industry Canada. I became Secretary in the summer of 2010 and President this past November. I think I know who you speak of from the West Coast. I got the impression that he expected us to stand up for him and right the wrongs. Even then we were quite certain that the story he told was outside our scope.

Nonetheless, your other points are very valid, compelling and interesting. Thank you for taking the time.

----

A few other points for now...

Prior to making my first post, I spent a little time sifting through the threads on here. One misconception that needs to be stopped right now is that the College will ram requirements and crazy expectations down the throats of pilots. No way. Absolutely not. We will maintain the calibre of pilots and aim to have influence to add 21st century thinking to flight standards. We will do what I have already mentioned in my previous post and provide support to bring the best out of all of us. I know it sounds sappy, but that is it. If you're truly a professional, you treat yourself, your peers and everyone else with respect and you expect that same treatment in return.

Finally, right now I am President of a board with 10 members. Big deal, but someone has to take the heat and drive the bus :)

There are roughly 23,000 Comm and ATPL pilots on the Canadian register. That's fixed and rotary. We as a board have no power. You have the power as one of those 23,000. First exercise of power; choose to join or not when we offer membership. The second opportunity to exercise your power will happen when the current board steps down when we achieve 33% membership, what's that, about 7,500 members at which point National elections will be held. You will be able to participate in the election, certainly by voting, maybe you'll even run for an elected position. Then comes the third choice, which actually is already underway, stay engaged and help shape the future of your Professional College.

They're your choices to make.

Fly safe,
Tom

**Edited to change CNPC to CNCPC
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Re: College of Pilots

Post by Localizer » Tue Jan 03, 2012 7:36 pm

Hey Tom,

Not sure if its possible to answer these question yet, but if you have the time ..

- What steps are required by the CPPC to achieve the "Professional College" designation?
- Do you require a percentage of Commercial/ATPL pilots on board?
- Do you require industry approval? (companies to be on board)
- Has this process been initiated? If so what is the expected timeline?

Thank you for your time and efforts!

Cheers. Loc
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Re: College of Pilots

Post by invertedattitude » Tue Jan 03, 2012 9:54 pm

I just want to add again as I have in the past.

From an ATC point of view, and as someone who formerly pursued a flying career, I seriously applaud the efforts of the college. If someone can manage to unite the pilot community, rather than the constant divisive nature it has been my entire life then in my opinion nothing bad can come from it.

In my opinion even the concept changes the mentality of some people, or at the least forces them to entertain the idea of thinking as a collective group of professionals instead of one for one!
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Re: College of Pilots

Post by osprey747 » Wed Jan 04, 2012 3:24 am

Thanks TomM for your updates and comments.

I appreciate that you'll pass along my comments to the Board.

I have heard that the Taiwanese Pilots Association actually provides certification for its pilots going over to Mainland China to fly (they can't get the job without the certification of hours and experience)... of course, they (Pilots Assoc) receive a monthly fee from this pilot (who gladly pays because their salaries increase 50% or sometimes double by going across the Strait to fly...)...

The projected shortage of pilots (by Boeing & Airbus), that you mentioned, - and - the staggering aircraft orders for the near and far future will mostly be overseas... We Canadian expats have a very good reputation overseas (thanks to all the talented and experienced personnel that went before us)... Even though Canada has probably more pilots per capita than most countries (any country?), it provides a steady stream of experienced pilots for overseas operators (even "bush" guys who have gone afar, i.e. Maldives, Africa, etc...). Hopefully the Board can take this into consideration. It is a realistic career option for current and future Canadian pilots. (It's an opportunity to gather more support from those of us overseas... the numbers are certainly there).

Another consideration: if most of us remain happily and gainfully employed overseas, there's little chance of us coming back and saturating the Canadian pilot market anymore than it is...

We know the fate of a lot of our "charter" outfits (past and recent past): C3, Skyservice, Zoom, etc... Seems that most Charter Outfits have a shelf life of 10 yrs or so... and suddenly you have a hundred pilots or so scrambling to go overseas. My point again: the numbers are there to possibly gather more support than what you have projected.
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Re: College of Pilots

Post by TomM » Wed Jan 04, 2012 12:45 pm

Hi Localizer,

Thanks for the questions. I will attempt to answer as best I can:

1. The steps to achieve "Professional College" designation.
Well, in essence the College would need to be recognized by the "stakeholders" to have the necessary credentials to exercise the privilege of the designation. That is many steps. Each of the stakeholder groups would have to get to know us and recognize our ability and competence to act.

There appear to be two sorts of Colleges or Societies, one where you must be a member prior to exercising the privilege of using your skills to receive compensation and the other is a non-mandatory organization that does provide benefit to its members by giving them access to resources and or information and also perhaps highlights special skills or education or credentials that its members may possess. The College of Pilots would definitely have to start with the latter and then as our effort gains momentum and all the stakeholders see the value in the College then we could end up with a situation where all Professional Pilots in Canada would need to be a member prior to exercising their privileges.

2. Percentage to be on board?
Ideally, all Comm and ATPLs would voluntarily join, but we realize that may be unrealistic. Please recognize that we are building a vision here and you have the opportunity to help shape that vision. Right now we have piqued the "conceptual interest" of a portion of the group of roughly 23,000 and we seem to have success gaining more interest/ support as we explain what it is we are trying to do. We have arbitrarily set 33% of the 23K as voluntary members as a significant milestone or threshold for the endeavour. As I said in a previous post, at that point the Board will step down and national elections will occur. To me at that point the College would be very real as it would have truly self elected representation to continue building the vision.

3. Necessity of Industry Approval
Ideally we will gain that as we progress. How can anyone disagree with an organization whose goals are to promote professionalism and safety through mentoring and the sharing of best practices? The College is not the boogeyman.

4. Has the process initiated- the timeline?
Yes, the wheels are in motion. We hope that more pilots will join us to assist in the development. We hope to offer membership soon. We are engaging stakeholder groups. The 33% is a major milestone as the nature of the representation will change to being truly elected. When that point occurs is entirely up to you. Choose to join and it will happen sooner than later and I can go back to lurking on here :D

One last thought on the timeline notion. In many ways, this is a journey with no destination- One of progress and evolution that will continue to build upon itself and strive to constantly improve. We hope that we can achieve the 33% within a year. The rest will depend on the direction that the members decide to take this. Again, you have the power...

-----

Osprey747

Indeed, the demand for pilots in Canada will primarily be due to attrition and secondarily to overall growth. The attrition numbers are a bit daunting though especially when one looks at the number of new pilots entering the stream. There are a lot of student pilot permits added every year; the observation is that a large portion of our flight training capacity is being taken up for the training of foreign students. To a large degree the Canadian Commercial has become an export product. There is nothing wrong with that, we believe that it is a wonderful thing that the Canadian license is so coveted abroad.

The College hopes to promote the profession to regain the interest of Canada's youth to consider aviation. The expat option is an appealing idea to many and a great point to add to the recruiting efforts.

-----

Great discussion, I hope this helps.

Fly safe,
Tom

** edited the number of Comm and ATPLs to 23,000
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Re: College of Pilots

Post by Localizer » Wed Jan 04, 2012 4:38 pm

Great! Thanks for all the information. I look forward to that day, hopefully sooner than later.

Loc
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Re: College of Pilots

Post by Cough Syrup » Wed Jan 04, 2012 6:36 pm

"Well, in essence the College would need to be recognized by the "stakeholders" to have the necessary credentials to exercise the privilege of the designation."

This is probably a dumb question but, who are the "stakeholder groups"?
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Re: College of Pilots

Post by BTyyj » Wed Jan 04, 2012 6:51 pm

Very interesting read. As being someone who will hopefully be entering the industry within the next few years, I find it very reassuring that such great people are volunteering their time to the betterment of this industy.
172pilot wrote:Unless there is a way to limit the amount of CPL's being issued, how can you ever solve the problem of too many pilots for the amount of jobs available when it's a government issued license that has little restrictions to obtain.
I was thinking about this very issue not too long ago. Quick question to some of the more seasoned persons in the industry: why not do this? Why not make the CPL harder and only allow certain institutions to award it? As noted by Tom, both Boeing and Airbus forecast a shortage of pilots in the near future, but those would be experienced pilots. It seems to me that there still is a surplus of inexperienced pilots. One forum user brought up the issue of younger pilot's lack of stick of rudder skills, as well as their willingness to work on the ramp. I feel making a harder CPL would resolve these issues. For one, to pass the CPL, students would have to further their learning by taking advanced courses on the side, such as aerobatic training, which would promote better stick an rudder skills as the foundation. It would also create a shortage of pilots, so they would be movir directly into a flying position rather than working on the ramp. Anyways, just a thought.

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Re: College of Pilots

Post by Big Pistons Forever » Wed Jan 04, 2012 6:57 pm

The "college" sounds like so many start up airlines. First there is lots of razzle dazzle about how the world of aviation is about to be changed with a "new way of doing business" followed by a long silence, followed by "we are reevaluating out business model to better meet the needs of out clients" followed by..........an avcanada thread titled "what ever happened to XXX ? "
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