Antonov AN-2

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Re: Antonov AN-2

#51 Post by CID » Tue Jan 24, 2012 8:42 am

This would be great for commercial IFR. You know, because it has dual wings. :)
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Re: Antonov AN-2

#52 Post by Colonel Sanders » Tue Jan 24, 2012 9:35 am

:lol:

Decades ago, I read about a guy that broke a spar
in a biplane, and managed to land it successfully
afterwards!

Try THAT in a monoplane! :wink:
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Re: Antonov AN-2

#53 Post by Expat » Tue Jan 24, 2012 10:12 am

Colonel Sanders wrote:I'd like to buy the one in the weeds in Nova Scotia and C-reg
it, if Transport didn't fight it too much and make it impossible.
I know they hate that particular airframe with a passion.

Probably needs new fabric by now, though, sitting outside.

And of course you can't carry more than 4 people in it, which
is simply ridiculous when you consider what it was designed to do.

4? magic number!
If I was still in Canada, I would seriously think about flying one this way:

4 passengers maximum. No problem. High stake poker played, aircraft circling TO and Niagara for the evening at reduced power settings. The biggest booze bar you ever saw, on board, and friendly chicks waiting at the the FBO.


Pilots build hours, gaming is international...drinks are duty free, and...chicks are these beautifulll Quebekers found around TO.
The winner gets to take the chick up for a moon seeing run!
That plane can be a very inexpensive casino!!!
:smt040
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Re: Antonov AN-2

#54 Post by Prairie Chicken » Tue Jan 24, 2012 12:08 pm

Ah Hedley, that isn't quite the way the case in NS went down ...

I read the entire transcript of the TATC hearing and it's available on line should anyone really wish to read thru many, many tedius pages of it.

Short story:
1 - the AN-2 isn't type-certificated in Canada and therefore can't get a regular C of A or be registered commercially in Canada.
2 - a foreign registered a/c may only be operated in Canada for a short period of time each year, 90 days if I recall correctly.
2 - the operators of the a/c ran a commercial skydive operation with the a/c under Polish documentation and well in excess of the limitation period the a/c could operate in Canada. Eventually TC fined them & they went to the tribunal--hence the whole story available for all to read. The TATC found them guilty.

I have no doubt the legitimate operators in the area were pretty unhappy about a competitor that was only answering to Polish officials.

As far as using the a/c in Canada is concerned, if someone really wanted to, they could spend a $100,000 or more to get the AN-2 type-certified in Canada & then that person & everyone else could get a reular C of A and operate it as other a/c are. No one was that interested last I heard but if you could get your money back operating a flying casino ... well Expat, there's a business plan for you!
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Re: Antonov AN-2

#55 Post by Colonel Sanders » Tue Jan 24, 2012 1:02 pm

the operators of the a/c ran a commercial skydive operation
No, they didn't. The aircraft was owned by one entity
which leased it to another entity, which was a club which
you had to join, to skydive.

I was in the goddamned room at the Tribunal when that
went down - I drove down, to avoid being charged by
the insane Inspector - and if you're happy with what
happened, well, you'd probably be happy working for Putin.

The point being, is that if you dared to operate a foreign
registered AN-2 in Canada, you would be ruthlessly crushed,
as has happened before. You can do it anywhere else in
the world, but not in Canada.

The insane Inspector was gunning for the pilot of the
AN-2. They had quite a history. She fined him $2,200
AND had his CPL pulled for almost 5 years, for removing
a quick-release door on a 172.

Very unprofessional and completely out of control. I
will never, ever fly in the Atlantic Region, for the rest
of my life. I think I'd probably be a lot safer in Nazi
Germany. They had more respect for due process
and citizen's rights.
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Re: Antonov AN-2

#56 Post by Arian17 » Tue Jan 24, 2012 4:15 pm

(Col Sanders I consider Your last comment in Your last paragraph a little bit...inappropriate)

Back to topic:
You probably know about this website: AN-2 owners and friends in the USA . Lots of info. And Your C-FAKA is listed there under "for sale"
as well.
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Re: Antonov AN-2

#57 Post by Colonel Sanders » Tue Jan 24, 2012 4:41 pm

I consider Your last comment in Your last paragraph a little bit...inappropriate
No problem. Next time an out-of-control Transport Canada Inspector phones you up cold and pre-emptively threatens you with fines and suspensions for a contravention that hasn't even occurred yet (if you dare to fly in their region) ... get back to me on what you think of that little experience.

I won't even mention unapologetically breaking into a house with a search warrant that they knew was invalid - and didn't care, because Canada is just a police state after all, isn't it?

And then representatives of Transport Canada think that everything is hunky-dory? That's how they think Transport should behave? If that doesn't scare the crap out of you, I don't know what will.

I say again, don't dare fly a foreign-registered AN-2 in Canada. Or else.
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Re: Antonov AN-2

#58 Post by trey kule » Tue Jan 24, 2012 6:46 pm

Very unprofessional and completely out of control, I
will never, ever fly in the Atlantic Region, for the rest
of my life.
Well it seems TC met its objective in keeping an unprofessional, out of control pilot out of their region..And yet everyone damns them for taking a proactive role in such cases :smt040 :smt040

On a more serious note, TC, like most Canadian government departments, feel themselves able to interpret and enforce the spirit of the law. No questions they have problems in that regard, and when they have a problem, usually some poor sap suffers terribly for it. It is a problem in Canada, no doubt about it.
Now, on the other hand (you see, law is all about debate which means more billable hours), if some clever person(s) using grade school yard logic, states "this is not a commercial operation because johnie owns the plane but leases it to Fred, and it is used by a "must join club", there is a problem.
It would seem, on first blush that is nothing but an attempt to circumvent the regulations/law.

I can see there would be a problem, though I will read the tribunal transcript, with the understanding that if the tribunal decision did not meet the approval of certain people, then it must be wrong.

Lastly, PC. You mentioned the 100k figure. Maybe an organization of oners of sorts would lower that number for cost sharing...Or, if it is for private use, how about an experimental C of A.?..I really dont know much about this stuff so that might be way out in left field, but it certainly beats trying to convince a tribunal 180 days is 90!

The message for some is here:
http://www.metrolyrics.com/the-princes- ... liams.html
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Re: Antonov AN-2

#59 Post by Colonel Sanders » Tue Jan 24, 2012 7:58 pm

I would be very surprised if you could certify an AN-2 airframe, engine, prop (etc) for $100M.

IIRC Paul Martin - you may remember him - he was the Prime Minister - using "grade school logic", registered his ships in Liberia, etc:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada_Ste ... ontroversy

and I don't see anyone here getting their panties in a bunch about that "grade school logic".
the tribunal decision did not meet the approval of certain people, then it must be wrong
They didn't have endless funds - as TC does - to appeal. As OJ showed us all, you get the justice you can afford. TC set out with the objective of crushing them, and they certainly achieved it, even if they had to break a lot of laws along the way. I suppose the ends justify the means?
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Re: Antonov AN-2

#60 Post by GGCC » Tue Jan 24, 2012 10:39 pm

Arian17 wrote:(Col Sanders I consider Your last comment in Your last paragraph a little bit...inappropriate)

Back to topic:
You probably know about this website: AN-2 owners and friends in the USA . Lots of info. And Your C-FAKA is listed there under "for sale"
as well.
Thanks for the link but that C-FAKA add is outdated.
I have written info from the contact person, that the aircraft has been sold on to Airdrie, Alberta.

Regards;
Dave
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Re: Antonov AN-2

#61 Post by Prairie Chicken » Wed Jan 25, 2012 5:36 am

Lastly, PC. You mentioned the 100k figure. Maybe an organization of oners of sorts would lower that number for cost sharing...Or, if it is for private use, how about an experimental C of A.?..I really dont know much about this stuff so that might be way out in left field, but it certainly beats trying to convince a tribunal 180 days is 90!
Kule, that was a figure that was tossed around TC back when that AN-2 file was going on. I have no idea what the cost would be, but it was expensive. I only recall that the airframe & also the components had to be certified by TC engineers before the a/c was eligible for a type certificate. That process was done on a cost-recovery basis; i.e., the applicant provided the engineering data & the TC engineers reviewed it all &, if they deemed it safe & satisfactory, blessed it with a type certificate.

I believe the AN-2's registered in Canada operate under a Special or Restricted C of A, and as such there were restrictions on the operation (SOBs & not for comm purposes), among other things.

The TC AME/Engineer types could answer your question better than I. For those with an interest, check with them.
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Re: Antonov AN-2

#62 Post by Jolly Tar » Thu Jan 26, 2012 4:54 pm

Where is SP-TWA now? What is her present situation?
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Re: Antonov AN-2

#63 Post by Colonel Sanders » Thu Jan 26, 2012 7:04 pm

Hasn't flown in years. Sitting in the weeds, sinking into the mud, just the way Transport wanted it.

It hasn't committed the horrible sin of aviation in Canada for quite some time, and may not ever again, which I suppose is a victory for some kinds of people.

Just to spite the anti-aviation bureaucrats, it's tempting to drive down (remember, I can't ever fly in Atlantic Region) and take it apart, truck it back to Eastern Ontario, re-do the wings with Ceconite and import it and fly it with a C-reg. You could probably hear the howls in BC from the weirdo Inspectors in the Atlantic Region, if it flew again. It was a really personal crusade for them.

Why not? It's not like Transport is going to start liking me any less than they already do :roll:
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Re: Antonov AN-2

#64 Post by MIQ » Thu Jan 26, 2012 10:31 pm

Colonel Sanders wrote: Just to spite the anti-aviation bureaucrats, it's tempting to drive down (remember, I can't ever fly in Atlantic Region) and take it apart, truck it back to Eastern Ontario, re-do the wings with Ceconite and import it and fly it with a C-reg. You could probably hear the howls in BC from the weirdo Inspectors in the Atlantic Region, if it flew again. It was a really personal crusade for them.
I'd come along if you need a helping hand carrying all that heavy metal. I would really love to see an Antonov 2 flying in Canada.
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Re: Antonov AN-2

#65 Post by GGCC » Fri Jan 27, 2012 2:55 am

MIQ wrote:
Colonel Sanders wrote: Just to spite the anti-aviation bureaucrats, it's tempting to drive down (remember, I can't ever fly in Atlantic Region) and take it apart, truck it back to Eastern Ontario, re-do the wings with Ceconite and import it and fly it with a C-reg. You could probably hear the howls in BC from the weirdo Inspectors in the Atlantic Region, if it flew again. It was a really personal crusade for them.
I'd come along if you need a helping hand carrying all that heavy metal. I would really love to see an Antonov 2 flying in Canada.
Let me know when guys....I'd like to join you, i live in NB near CYSJ, lets fly the :bear:

Actually, NATO calls it a Colt but i couldn't find a horse.... :rolleyes:
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Re: Antonov AN-2

#66 Post by Jolly Tar » Fri Jan 27, 2012 4:01 am

Where is it sinking in the mud? Who owns it at present? Is it for sale? Where should I go for more information on SP-TWA? It's a shame such an interesting aircraft should be slowly eroding into nothing. I live in NS near CCW3 and would like to go check out the Colt. I've never seen one in real life.
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Re: Antonov AN-2

#67 Post by Prairie Chicken » Fri Jan 27, 2012 4:57 am

It is a real sin that a/c hasn't been flying. I remember watching videos of it and it was a really pretty aircraft too, white with rainbows on it. Go get it guys!
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Re: Antonov AN-2

#68 Post by trey kule » Fri Jan 27, 2012 6:50 am

OK guys, how about this.

Post a thread looking for partners.. Sell 50% of the plane to 100 people (1/2 of 1% each) for $200 apiece. There should be enough of us who can enjoy this.. The other 50% can be taken by the folks that are going to go and salvage it , and bring it up to flying condition, which I think might end up to be more than if they just bought one and imported it. But I digress.
Put everyone's name and address on the registration.
If there is a problem with TC down the road, they will have to deal with over 100 individuals, and 100 individuals become a force to deal with.

The only downside of this is having people have enough faith in the major partners not to do anything illegal and get them in trouble collectively, so maybe a management agreement by a general partner and the minority owners would be appropriate.

PC mentioned there was a vehicle for getting a limited C of A, so if no one has the bright idea to play silly bugger with the folks at TC and use it strictly as approved, there should be no problem.

BTW..If the plane was made in Poland, there are some bilateral agreements that should be explored.
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Re: Antonov AN-2

#69 Post by Beefitarian » Fri Jan 27, 2012 8:07 am

If I buy a few shares can I get type checked on it? Where's it going to be based?
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Re: Antonov AN-2

#70 Post by GGCC » Fri Jan 27, 2012 11:11 am

Beefitarian wrote:If I buy a few shares can I get type checked on it? Where's it going to be based?
I think we should register the aircraft in France, yes i said France and she could be based in French Territory, not far from Canada....I refer to the islands of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geography_ ... d_Miquelon

Apparently she could be operated in our Country, the "True North Strong and Free" (no irony intended) for a period of 90 days and then has to leave Canada.....again for a certain period.

Well Newfyland ain't far across the water from Saint Pierre :mrgreen:

Don't suppose that whole scenario would cause TC any concern would it :?:

Also i like the idea of a shareholder group....maybe that should be further developed.....

I started this post wanting info on the AN-2 Colt, looks like i'm not the only one interested, this subject has taken on a life of it's own, i hope my fellow pilots out there keep inputting to the thread....

Best Regards;

Dave
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Re: Antonov AN-2

#71 Post by Beefitarian » Fri Jan 27, 2012 11:16 am

Wait just a second Dave. Have you been to this island? Can a guy buy a lot at the airport and build a hanger? How's the gardening there?
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Re: Antonov AN-2

#72 Post by GGCC » Fri Jan 27, 2012 11:53 am

Beefitarian wrote:Wait just a second Dave. Have you been to this island? Can a guy buy a lot at the airport and build a hanger? How's the gardening there?
Hi Beefitarian;

I havn't actually visited the island which is just off the coast of Fortune, NFLD but i have sailed past it almost close enough to touch.... (another story)

Check it out on Google Earth....

I just got this bright idea of Saint Pierre here on this snowy NB afternoon but guess what :?:

I have made radio contact in the recent past with a fellow Amateur who lives there (as follows) so one could get "on the ground" intel....

FP5CJ France
JEAN-PIERRE CARRERE
PO BOX: 1543 ST PIERRE ET MIQUELON FRENCH ISLANDS
NORTH AMERICA
St Pierre & Miquelon

by the way if anyone is interested my Amateur call is VE9YA and yes, i think you can plant a garden there :mrgreen:

All the Best;
Dave
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Re: Antonov AN-2

#73 Post by Jolly Tar » Fri Jan 27, 2012 1:43 pm

What is involved in importing an aircraft like this into Canada? I've imported motorcycles, helped work through reflagging of vessels, but never a plane. There are a number of AN-2 available in Poland and Ukraine (many of them Polish built). One of my friends is very interested in getting himself an AN-2. I'm mostly just interested in learning about/seeing/perhaps flying one.
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Re: Antonov AN-2

#74 Post by DanWEC » Sun Jan 29, 2012 4:55 pm

Prairie chicken has it right. If the aircraft isn't already a certified type in Canada, it would have to be approved. Quite a process.
Here is reference for simple import of a certified type,
http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/s ... t-2037.htm

But let's assume you can't do it. There may be a workaround.
http://laws.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulatio ... ge-29.html
Review this link about operating foreign registered AC in Canada, it is limited to 90 day, **unless the operator of the aircraft is a citizen of the state the AC is registered in**.
Given the CARS definition of operator, it doesn't have to be the pilot.
I could see an arrangement being reached with an foreign individual to act as a proxy for someone else to fly to plane. Also could think about setting up a holding company registered in that country, and have it own the aircraft.
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Re: Antonov AN-2

#75 Post by Old Dog Flying » Sun Jan 29, 2012 6:01 pm

When my friend had SP-BFR based at ZBB, it was flown on a Polish PPL, under Polish registration, by a Yank living in Canada and I believe all he had to do was pay the taxes. He bought the aircraft in Poland and paid a Polish pilot to ferry it to ZBB.

It was a big pig to fly..but different.
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