Flying while suspended for Impaired

[shimmydampner]

Should we disband the sex offender registry, too?

Intentionally preying upon the vulnerable is a very different thing than making an isolated, terrible choice that leads to an accident. And driving a personal vehicle is a very different thing from a commercial aircraft operation in which there are things like operational control, regular stringent testing of performance and adherence to rules and constant observation and monitoring of day to day performance by other crew members. Last I checked, there is no provision to prevent a person from operating as a flight crew member based solely on any poor decisions they may have made before their frontal cortex was fully developed, so maybe rather than blanket statements, similar situations should be judged on an individual basis.

[tsgarp]

It takes hard work to be compassionate towards those who cause tragedy.

Don't mistake sound risk assessment for a lack of compassion. Barring someone from a position of trust after they have committed a major breach of trust is simple risk assessment; cold hard logic. Letting them out of jail to start over, that is compassion.

Barring someone from ever again holding a position of trust based on a youthful mistake decades ago (if one ascribes to rookie's point of view) is not a logical risk assessment in my view. It is an emotional risk assessment, based on evidence that may no longer be relevant.

Many years ago, when I was being trained to do interviews and selection the HR professionals really hammered on the idea that past performance is the best indicator of future performance. When I was taught to do risk assessment we were told to account for probability of an adverse occurrence and the consequences of that adverse occurrence.

Applying that to the situation at hand, what we have is an individual that is at significantly higher than average chance of showing bad judgment being placed in a position where bad judgement has catastrophic consequences. No emotion there.

[RedAndWhiteBaron]

what we have is an individual that is at significantly higher than average chance of showing bad judgment

Citation needed. I still believe you are making an emotional argument here.

It very much depends on how long ago something happened, would you not agree? Something that happened 20 years ago is far less relevant than something that happened 5 years ago - and something that happened 5 years ago is far less relevant than something that happened 5 months ago.

I would also posit that a clean driving/criminal record for 20 years is pretty solid evidence in and of itself that the issue has been dealt with, in my hypothetical 20 year timeline scenario.

And what if they've been pardoned (er, obtained a record suspension)? You'd never know. Unless you disagree with pardons on principle, they would carry some weight with you, right?

But do let me reiterate that I agree that anyone currently under a driving suspension should also be under a piloting suspension.

[Needswork2020]

I came back to look at CV's to hire someone as a FO on the jet I was hired on.


I found this thread. God, you are all horrible.

People change and accidents happen. I have never done as much cocaine as with a CX B747 guy on his Command party.

It takes all kinds in our industry. Shutting someone out for a past indiscretion is silly and doesn't show a very well-developed failure model.

[rookiepilot]

But do let me reiterate that I agree that anyone currently under a driving suspension should also be under a piloting suspension.

That is the title and subject of this thread.

[tsgarp]

I would also posit that a clean driving/criminal record for 20 years is pretty solid evidence in and of itself that the issue has been dealt with, in my hypothetical 20 year timeline scenario.

I think this just come down to you having a much higher appetite for risk than some of the rest of us. Either that or you are confusing risk mitigation with punishment.

[flyboy14914]

Another subtle consideration... an impaired driving conviction is a criminal code conviction. If you have a DUI conviction you will never get past the criminal record check to get your RAIC which every commercial pilot will require...

[Dh8Classic]

Shutting someone out for a past indiscretion is silly and doesn't show a very well-developed failure model.

Wow, A330 and A321. I wonder what airline flies those aircraft with furloughed pilots.

I remember one airline that hired a convicted drug run ner. He ended up getting an award for ‘heroic action’ at the airline and has written a book.

I’m sure these guys met some sort of important hiring requirement by whatever airline it is, while others didn’t make the grade.

N’est ce pas?

[tsgarp]

Shutting someone out for a past indiscretion is silly and doesn't show a very well-developed failure model.

Wow, A330 and A321. I wonder what airline flies those aircraft with furloughed pilots.

I remember one airline that hired a convicted drug run ner. He ended up getting an award for ‘heroic action’ at the airline and has written a book.

I’m sure these guys met some sort of important hiring requirement by whatever airline it is, while others didn’t make the grade.

N’est ce pas?

I think we might want to read the entire narrative about the Azores glider before we start heaping praise on anyone’s judgement.

[digits_]

Another subtle consideration... an impaired driving conviction is a criminal code conviction. If you have a DUI conviction you will never get past the criminal record check to get your RAIC which every commercial pilot will require...

There are plenty of commercial jobs you can get without a RAIC.

I don't deny it happens, but I'm not sure why a DUI would automatically mean you shouldn't get a RAIC.

To broaden the discussion a bit: be aware that limitations vary significantly between countries. What gets you a DUI in Canada, might just be a slap on the wrist in another country. Your DUI convicted Canadian might be less of a drunk than a foreign pilot without any DUI convictions, and yet you share the same airspace.

[J31]

Another subtle consideration... an impaired driving conviction is a criminal code conviction. If you have a DUI conviction you will never get past the criminal record check to get your RAIC which every commercial pilot will require...

That quote is wrong. A DUI conviction will NOT prevent you from holding a RAIC.

[dialdriver]

Another subtle consideration... an impaired driving conviction is a criminal code conviction. If you have a DUI conviction you will never get past the criminal record check to get your RAIC which every commercial pilot will require...

Fact Check: DUI will not prevent obtaining a RAIC.

https://tc.canada.ca/en/programs/non-fu ... -standards

II.35 Cancellation or Refusal

1) The Advisory Body may recommend to the Minister the cancellation, refusal or upholding of a suspension of a security clearance to any individual if the Advisory Body has determined that the individual’s presence in the restricted area of a listed airport would be inconsistent with the aim and objective of this Program.
2) In making the determination referred to in subsection (1), the Advisory Body may consider any factor that is relevant, including whether the individual:
a) has been convicted or otherwise found guilty in Canada or elsewhere of an offence including, but not limited to:
any indictable offence punishable by imprisonment for more then 10 years,
trafficking, possession for the purpose of trafficking or exporting or importing under the Controlled Drugs and Substances Act,
any offences contained in Part VII of the Criminal Code - Disorderly Houses, Gaming and Betting,
any contravention of a provision set out in section 160 of the Customs Act,
any offences under the Security Of Information Act; or
any offences under Part III of the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act;
b) is likely to become involved in activities directed toward or in support of the threat or use of acts of serious violence against property or persons.

[Dh8Classic]

Shutting someone out for a past indiscretion is silly and doesn't show a very well-developed failure model.

Wow, A330 and A321. I wonder what airline flies those aircraft with furloughed pilots.

I remember one airline that hired a convicted drug runn er. He ended up getting an award for ‘heroic action’ at the airline and has written a book.

I’m sure these guys met some sort of important hiring requirement by whatever airline it is, while others didn’t make the grade.

N’est ce pas?

I think we might want to read the entire narrative about the Azores glider before we start heaping praise on anyone’s judgement.

It wasn't meant to be praise. They hired a convicted felon, perhaps because he was from the local province(and no doubt had the most qualified flying background), and then he went out and didn't follow the procedures as written and nearly killed everyone. It could have destroyed the company based on the media coverage at the time(until 9/11 diverted attention). Did they learn any lessons from that.

N'est ce pas?

[RRJetPilot]

Wow, A330 and A321. I wonder what airline flies those aircraft with furloughed pilots.

I remember one airline that hired a convicted drug runn er. He ended up getting an award for ‘heroic action’ at the airline and has written a book.

I’m sure these guys met some sort of important hiring requirement by whatever airline it is, while others didn’t make the grade.

N’est ce pas?

I think we might want to read the entire narrative about the Azores glider before we start heaping praise on anyone’s judgement.

It wasn't meant to be praise. They hired a convicted felon, perhaps because he was from the local province(and no doubt had the most qualified flying background), and then he went out and didn't follow the procedures as written and nearly killed everyone. It could have destroyed the company based on the media coverage at the time(until 9/11 diverted attention). Did they learn any lessons from that.

N'est ce pas?

And he was absolutely horrible to fly with. Considered himself a Aviation God.

[DanWEC]

This thread is ridiculous. Not only is it like an out-of-body experience trying to read the totally different subjects revived after a decade, the sanctimony is really something. Good people make mistakes. It's how you come back from them after paying the price that shows your character.

Anyways, why not put this one back to bed again where it was in 2012. It was only revived my someone who seemed to have an axe to grind.

[tsgarp]

Wow, A330 and A321. I wonder what airline flies those aircraft with furloughed pilots.

I remember one airline that hired a convicted drug runn er. He ended up getting an award for ‘heroic action’ at the airline and has written a book.

I’m sure these guys met some sort of important hiring requirement by whatever airline it is, while others didn’t make the grade.

N’est ce pas?

I think we might want to read the entire narrative about the Azores glider before we start heaping praise on anyone’s judgement.

It wasn't meant to be praise. They hired a convicted felon, perhaps because he was from the local province(and no doubt had the most qualified flying background), and then he went out and didn't follow the procedures as written and nearly killed everyone. It could have destroyed the company based on the media coverage at the time(until 9/11 diverted attention). Did they learn any lessons from that.

N'est ce pas?

My mistake, I misunderstood your intent.