Billing Issue With FTU

[Living 5500ASL]

Hello everyone,

I just wanted to post about an issue I am having with a former FTU. If anyone has any advice I'm all ears.

When I started my PPL at the school I told them I did not require any ground school as I was already taking it through Harv's Air online. I was told no problem and I wouldn't have to pay for the ground school since I wasn't going to attend it. All went according to plan and I was never charged.... Until two years I get a letter in the mail. Says I owe somewhere to the tune of $1500 for the ground school I never attended.

So I get in touch with the FTU and politely tell them this is in error and I never attended. Also I decided it was best to keep all correspondence with the FTU in writing so I have record of everything. The FTU wrote back saying no I did attend and then they presented a falsified attendance record stating I was there. Now I know what your thinking, some FTU is trying for a scam and making a false attendance record so to be fair I will point out that I think what actually happened is the ground school instructor was from time to time lazy and just clicked select all for everyone as present in the computer (at least I hope that's what happened or this is a much more serious issue.)

I told them their attendance record was false and to speak with the person that told me I wouldn't be charged for ground school in the very first place when I started at the school. Apparently he no longer works there. Earlier today I sent a facebook message out to my old flight instructor (also no longer works there) to see if he might be able to write me up a signed letter saying I wasn't there. I feel terrible to drag him into it but I feel like it's probably the best evidence I got since me and him would often brief and fly when the ground school they claim I went to was happening. My thoughts are I will likely just have to ask them to sue me for it and then I can let a judge straighten it out. Although I want to make sure I got everything together before I go down this road.

Appreciate any advice.

[old_man]

If they are indeed producing falsified/fraudulent records in an attempt to get money from you then it may be a case for the RCMP to investigate. Of course, that could be going overboard.

Oh, and careful with just 'letting them sue you' as they may just turn it over to a collections agency and bye bye credit rating.

[FISH-FLY]

I attended three different FTU's while attaining my commercial MIFR, and all three would have screwed me out of money had I not been diligent about keeping track of my account. The first had an actual crooked owner that would go onto the system from home and add invoices to accounts for erroneous things like administration fees. I never put money on account again, anywhere. The other two I believe genuinely made mistakes, but they were errors of hundreds of dollars due to double billing flights. They would take the log sheet at the end of the day and put the flights that occured onto the students accounts. However, because I had paid immediately after the flight and the proper entry had not been made on the system, it would show up as owing.

Your situation may very well be an error, and it's best to approach it that way at first. Perhaps you can get a copy of the Harv's training record, as that would prove that you had no need to take their course. Perhaps a phone call or meeting with the general manager of the FTU would be in order. Usually two level headed individuals can get to the bottom of something like this pretty quick. That is what worked for me in the first situation above (he acknowledged that the owner was a crook and gave me my money back).

Either way, my best advice for anyone going forward with flight training is never trust your billing, and never put money on account, no matter how reputable the school is. Pay as you go, they will take your money no matter what they say their policy is.

[Living 5500ASL]

If they are indeed producing falsified/fraudulent records in an attempt to get money from you then it may be a case for the RCMP to investigate. Of course, that could be going overboard.

Oh, and careful with just 'letting them sue you' as they may just turn it over to a collections agency and bye bye credit rating.

I really am trying to have the benefit of the doubt that they are not willingly trying to commit fraud. I really do believe it's a mistake although perhaps I should ask for a signed letter from the instructor that supposedly taught me saying I was there. Now if they produce something like that then I may take it a little more seriously but my thoughts are it may put an end to this mess.

As far as turning it over to a collection agency they aren't legally allowed too once you ask them to sue you. Basically once you write a cease and desist letter all collection attempts must stop and it has to go through court if they wish to continue. If anything I'd be better off asking them to sue me before they turn it over to collections.

[rapid602]

I would tell them to pound salt. I would not pay them 5 cents. Ten I would send a letter to the two credit bereau's ( check the spelling on that ) and send them each a letter that you are ina dispute with a flying school about this matter and that you ARE NOT PAYING THIS INVOICE. Then I would send them a letter to the effect and call and ask to speak with the owner. I would then tell him I am going to post this on every media site that will listen and tell them THE TRUTH, and its in your best interest to end this.

AND THEN GET A LETTER FROM HIM STATING IT WAS ON OVER SITE, AND NO PAYMENT IS REQUIRED AND THE ACCOUNT CLOSED. This way he can't send it to a collection agency and get your credit rating trashed for having an collection against you.

Tell the nubee's what the name of the school is so they can be aware this this place.

But get to the owner and keep a log of dates and times and who said what.

I would have no problem, starting a claim against him in small claims court if he sent that to a collection agency.

Good Luck, and don't pay it (IF YOU DIDN'T GO)

[justwork]

It's your word against theirs. If they tried to sue you, and showed a mediator an attendance record that you did not initial or sign, and you can produce a payment for an online program you completed... Well, your word against theirs - but why would you attend two ground schools? I'd send them a copy of payment you made to Harv's and see if that jogs their memory.

[kevinsky18]

You mentioned you often flew during ground school. Have them compare the journey log to the gs records.

[Shiny Side Up]

Says I owe somewhere to the tune of $1500 for the ground school I never attended.

The school charges $1500 for PPL ground school? Even being evil flight school guy I think that's pretty steep and well above the going rate. Are you sure this is what they are trying to charge you for or are there other items on that list?

Either way, if they have falsified documentation I would bring your troubles to your local TC office, or notify them that you are intending to do this unless they rectify the bill.

[Living 5500ASL]

The school charges $1500 for PPL ground school? Even being evil flight school guy I think that's pretty steep and well above the going rate. Are you sure this is what they are trying to charge you for or are there other items on that list?

Haha, ya that was my first thoughts too. I assure you it's only for ground school and nothing else. Highway robbery!

[DanWEC]

Perhaps you can get a copy of the Harv's training record, as that would prove that you had no need to take their course. Perhaps a phone call or meeting with the general manager of the FTU would be in order.

and never put money on account, no matter how reputable the school is. Pay as you go, they will take your money no matter what they say their policy is.

+1 on both. Proving you took it elsewhere doesn't immediately solve the problem at hand, but at least it provides supporting documentation. Sounds like it doesn't need to be escalated too much unless they try to prove otherwise.
Also- DON'T EVER PUT MONEY ON ACCOUNT!

Questions- Can you provide any receipts or other documentation that proves you might have been doing something else (ei shopping, whatever) during the time the ground school classes were in session?
-Usually ground schools give quizzes, tests, final test, recommendation letter, etc. Ask to see them if they are so convinced you were there.
-Where is your log book? The ground school endorsement columns will have been filled out and signed by the place you took the training at. (Harvs?) That should be good enough as well.

[TeePeeCreeper]

If they cannot produce evidence of a signed/initialed attendance sheet, than they don't have a leg to stand on.

I would go in person, and ask the owner/CFI to produce such paperwork. If they can't do so, I suggest you politely inform them that you don't take kindly to false accusations and harassment over payment owed. Have a written letter to that effect to hand to the owner/CFI after your chat.

All this drivel about comparing flight records, receipts etc, etc is a waist of time. "Just show me where I signed the attendance sheet please" should suffice.

Regards,
TPC

[SuperchargedRS]

Call them and ask for a official record of your ground school, tell them you want to forward it to TC.

[mcrit]

I would try and get a hold of your PPL PTR. It would have been sent to TC as part of your PPL application, I think TC keeps them (I know there are some TC Inspectors on the site here; perhaps they could clarify). Ground school must be recorded and signed off in the PTR. If the GS is not listed in the PTR, that would be a pretty strong tidbit to bring to the table (either the FTU's manager or the Bench if need be). If however, the GS is signed off, and the FTU were to produce that PTR you might have a bit more of a battle on your hands. Either way, the PTR is the document that you want to try and find.

[Strega]

tell them to go away.. and dont pay them... not that difficult...

[shitdisturber]

Even being evil flight school guy

Hell my dogs were more evil than you, you're an amateur.

[Bushav8er]

If this was in Ontario...so much for the 'Private Career College' protecting students. Perhaps look into that and see if there is something that can be done.

http://www.tcu.gov.on.ca/eng/postsecond ... grams/pcc/

http://www.tcu.gov.on.ca/pepg/audiences/pcc/notices.asp

[Bede]

A couple things:
1) Like another poster said, call TC and get a copy of your PTR showing where you did GS.
2) Be careful about having encouraging them to sue you. There is a lot more to small claims court than just showing up with some paperwork. While the process is simpler than superior court, rules of evidence still apply. You could find yourself trying to tell your story only to find out the evidence you're relying on is inadmissible.
3) It's a contravention of the aeronautics act to claim training that was not received. Give TC enforcement a call and send a copy of your fake training record.

I would contact the school and tell them that unless they drop the case, you will notify TC enforcement of their fraudulent GS record keeping.

Good luck.

[Slappy the Squirrel]

I second the opinion of obtaining a copy of your PPL PTR that Transport Canada has. It's been a few years since I last instructed but I definately remember a section where you had to fill in your ground school record. So if you didn't take ground school there, then it shouldn't be recorded in that section!

Also, I would send them record of your online ground school. Keep it civil and it might be easier for everyone involved.

[Shiny Side Up]

Even being evil flight school guy

Hell my dogs were more evil than you, you're an amateur.

I've graduated, but then you probably don't know about the shark tank I had installed in the sim room. If you break minimums now, the chair has a trigger to dump the student in. The guys will be here next week to install their lasers.

[shitdisturber]

I've graduated, but then you probably don't know about the shark tank I had installed in the sim room. If you break minimums now, the chair has a trigger to dump the student in. The guys will be here next week to install their lasers.

You're just trying to lure me back into instructing by making it fun again.