Ah, Airmanship, Where Has It Gone?

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BTyyj
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Re: Ah, Airmanship, Where Has It Gone?

Post by BTyyj »

BverLuver wrote:or just plain ignorance in the younger generation taking the lead here.
I don't think ignorance and lack of intelligence is exclusive to the younger generation. It's true that only recently, humans have stopped allowing natural selection to take its course, but there are still intelligent and unintelligent persons within both the younger and older generation. For example, why does it take you old people soooooo longer to figure out how to use a computer ??? :grin:
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Meatservo
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Re: Ah, Airmanship, Where Has It Gone?

Post by Meatservo »

You were probably thinking of "Strumpets".

Back on topic, I can't believe I'M saying this, but don't blame the "younger generation". I worked with a VERY high time and experienced guy a couple of years ago who is now in his sixties, and we were talking about the weather and he said "I never turn back. If I leave, I'm getting in. I don't ever turn back". I never quite knew what to make of this, because he DID decide not to do the trip at all because the weather was bad. So I'm not 100% sure what he was talking about, but I'm glad he's not giving this advice to younger pilots.
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Brown Bear
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Re: Ah, Airmanship, Where Has It Gone?

Post by Brown Bear »

Meatservo wrote:You were probably thinking of "Strumpets".

Back on topic, I can't believe I'M saying this, but don't blame the "younger generation". I worked with a VERY high time and experienced guy a couple of years ago who is now in his sixties, and we were talking about the weather and he said "I never turn back. If I leave, I'm getting in. I don't ever turn back". I never quite knew what to make of this, because he DID decide not to do the trip at all because the weather was bad. So I'm not 100% sure what he was talking about, but I'm glad he's not giving this advice to younger pilots.
Then you didn't really "listen" to him there, Meat. He probably meant, that if he launched in the first place, it's because he knows he'll get in. And in these cases, he knows he'll never have to turn back, making his original statement correct.
:bear: :bear:
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rapid602
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Re: Ah, Airmanship, Where Has It Gone?

Post by rapid602 »

Short Version of a Long VERY TRUE STORY

Once upon a time, I owned a motor bike, I let my best friend and flying instructor ride it... I would have let him fly my plane ... I never let anyone not even my brother ride my bike...
He took it for a ride, out of sight went too fast on a hill hit a bus and died. I had to go to his funeral and meet his family ( That SUCKED) .... time goes by and I buy another motorbike.

Here comes my mother, "why did you buy that, they kill people" blah blah, I said look at it sitting there, "how does it kill people" she said "its not running". So I sat on it and started it " said "Ok ...its running " she said "'well you are not driving it like an idiot" ....

OK OK.... Moral of the story ... an airplane sitting there isn't going to kill anyone, yes when its running there is a chance something can and will go wrong ... but if you approach it with the right attitude, treat it with the respect it deserves, drive it respectfully and within the limits of the law ... the chances are you will need to sell it when you are retireing ...etc....

I saw a picture the other day of a cat looking in the mirror and sees a Lion .... so if your an inexperienced pilot and you look in the mirror and see an image of what you think a proffessional pilot looks like ...... Its you ... its you who decides how good you want to be .... it you who decides what your standards of excellence are .. the choice is yours.

My daughter was at work one day, and a manager asked her to do something over again because she walked into the room and left footprints in the carpet... He said we have standards here and we do not deviate from them ... If I do not make you do it over again ... then that is the NEW STANDARD .... so you decide how good your airmanship needs to be. you set your standards ...

And the pilot lived happily ever after and all the other pilots will look up to him/her and respect him/her. Maybe ... thanks for reading that ...
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bstock
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Re: Ah, Airmanship, Where Has It Gone?

Post by bstock »

Airmanship involves every little aspect of aviation. Like everything else in life, this isn't exactly something that can be learned from a book or instructional video, but rather something that we learn through experience and example. Unfortunately I think at least some of the blame must be placed the structure of Canadian aviation training. The vast majority of the flight instructors are new to this industry and bring very little experience to the table. These individuals have not had the time, let alone the experience and guidance required to even wrap their heads around everything airmanship encompasses, or the skill itself. And as we all know, you cannot pass on a skill that you have not have a proper understanding of.
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Shiny Side Up
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Re: Ah, Airmanship, Where Has It Gone?

Post by Shiny Side Up »

Unfortunately I think at least some of the blame must be placed the structure of Canadian aviation training.
Some, but not a lot. You either are someone who goes through your life in a consientious manner or you aren't. Who you are as a person - and usually who that person was long before they became a pilot - often dictates how well they are going to practice the nebulous art we call airmanship. Only extensive training is going to change this, and by that I mean training rigorous far, far outside the norm of what current private pilot, or even commercial pilot currently mandates. Possibly some sore of aviation boot camp where students are broken first before rebuilding them as pilots might work - not something many would submit to. Flying, especially in the general aviation world, means freedom, and unfortunately freedom to some means doing whatever the f*ck they please regardless of the consequences for everyone else. It is the nature of human beings.
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Post by Beefitarian »

I don't know Shiny. I probably would not leave laundry lying around and fart in bed if I didn't fly with such woefully inexperienced flight instructors. The flight training industry needs a turn around.
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Shiny Side Up
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Post by Shiny Side Up »

Beefitarian wrote:The flight training industry needs a turn around.
Oh, it does need a turn around, but maybe not specifically for this reason. Society in general needs a turn around to make people better at airmanship, but then again being an ass may just be genetically coded into our species.
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flying4dollars
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Re: Ah, Airmanship, Where Has It Gone?

Post by flying4dollars »

Meatservo wrote:Don't start this shit again. I can tell you what's going to happen. I will come on here blaming it on poor testing and Transport Canada, . will come on here and blame it on "kids these days" and Transport Canada, and "colonel Sanders" will come on here and show us a video of a wicked airshow performance. The thread will go to about three pages long until someone blames it on Air Canada, a fight will start, "colonel Sanders" will post another great video, and then it will be over. Then you'll go to work and get sandblasted.
LOL!!! Well played meat...
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Doc
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Re: Ah, Airmanship, Where Has It Gone?

Post by Doc »

I guess I'm just tired of seeing things like guys sweeping (which, btw, does SFA) under their props, then pouring water under them to keep the dust down, only to "warm" the engines, including increasing the power, and exercising the props, tossing the aforementioned gravel all over any airplane that's unfortunate enough to be parked behind them....and their props.....just so they don't have to wait for their temps with the pax on board, even thought it's PLUS 8 on the ramp?
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Re: Ah, Airmanship, Where Has It Gone?

Post by single_swine_herder »

Funny ... I just finished reading an article written in 1931 in a magzine called "Canadian Air Review" in which the author lamented that aviation was going to hell in a handbasket because "the real pilots" ..... barnstormers, seemed be losing the press coverage due to Mail Pilots and spoiled-brat Airline pilots undeservedly grabbing the attention of the public. Everyone who had a level head on their shoulders back in the day knew these guys weren't worth a hoot when it came to stick and rudder skills compared to the barnstormers, and were aviation hacks with zero decision making skills and lousy training.

It seems this debate has been around a long time.
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Re: Ah, Airmanship, Where Has It Gone?

Post by I WAS Birddog »

I'd rather use the term "inconsiderate airmanship".

Like hypothetically perhaps for an example; a private helicopter pilot that owns his own construction business hovering low level around the apron kicking up sand, stones and dust onto other very expensive hardware just parked on the Shell apron in Sudbury practicing his turns while critical care Air Ambulance are trying to unload their patient.

Hypothetically speaking of course. It never happened. And it never happens often I've been told.
And it never happens often by a construction owner that flies a white and yellow Bell chopper.
....apparently. Never happened.
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JayVee
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Re: Ah, Airmanship, Where Has It Gone?

Post by JayVee »

Does anyone else think the following would constitite poor airmanship?

In Red Lake yesterday, the wind was favouring runway 08, 110 degrees at 11 knots. 20 degrees celcius.

Traffic inbound from Dryden (southeast) was a Metro just entering the zone for a right downwind on 08.

Traffic waiting to depart was a Metro from a different company, intending to depart 26 with a left turn southbound for Kenora.

When the traffic advisory was issued to the departing A/C, the FSS guy suggested a departure off 08 due to inbound traffic. The A/C said he'd still use 26 and proceded to back track for departure. Meanwhile, the lander is in the downwind for 08. The departing Metro launched off 26 and commenced an immediate left turn towards the path of the inbound aircraft.

Did he have the lander in sight? Don't know.
Was he a medevac? No.
Did it save him time? No, not with a longer backtrack.
Was it beneficial to increase the risk of a collision? No.
Does it make any sense to anyone? Doubt it.
Does the crew think it was a good decision? I sure as f@(& hope not.
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Re: Ah, Airmanship, Where Has It Gone?

Post by cdnpilot77 »

Sometimes there is some incredibly good airmanship as well.

This past wednesday in Pikangikum a North Star PC-12, piloted by the owner Mr. Cox I believe, was parked on the ramp when we pulled in and parked off his right wing. When his passengers arrived a few hours later and were set for departure, the PC12 pulled out of his parking spot (right next to the taxiway to the rwy on the North-West corner of the ramp) and instead of making a left turn onto the runway and sandblasting our airplane he made a right turn to the south end of the ramp, turned around away from all of the airplanes on the ramp and at that point commenced his taxi for departure!

This I thought was a very simple but very considerate gesture and a prime example of airmanship!
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Chilliwackian
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Re: Ah, Airmanship, Where Has It Gone?

Post by Chilliwackian »

Why not name and blame. A thread on airmanship might be appropriate.

Give credit to the considerate, thoughtful and competent and reveal the inconsiderate, thoughtless, and incompetent. You never know it might give some a swelled head and smarten some up. If the latter category feel inclined to justify their actions they can be judged on this forum [ God help them ] by their peers and we may all learn something as no one is perfect.

Just recently I watched from a distance a helicopter arrive [ I have nothing against helicopters ] and hover-taxi to a space on the ramp between a Piper Cub and a 172. There were ailerons, flaps and elevators dancing madly and I wondered if the pilot even realised what he was doing.
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Cough Syrup
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Re: Ah, Airmanship, Where Has It Gone?

Post by Cough Syrup »

I blame all this shit on Air Canada.
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Re: Ah, Airmanship, Where Has It Gone?

Post by Siddley Hawker »

We once blew Maureen McTeer on her ass with a G1. Does this constitute bad airmanship? I hasten to add I wasn't Captain. :D
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Old Dog Flying
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Re: Ah, Airmanship, Where Has It Gone?

Post by Old Dog Flying »

The fling-wing thing happens all the time. Recently in YCW I watched as aBell 206 landed on the apron near my AA1A and it was bouncing all over the place.

Barney C-GFXH
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Re: Ah, Airmanship, Where Has It Gone?

Post by Liquid Charlie »

PC12 pulled out of his parking spot (right next to the taxiway to the rwy on the North-West corner of the ramp) and instead of making a left turn onto the runway
I'm shocked that this would be considered special since I figured it has been SOP and practiced long before I did it for the first time ---- maybe airmanship is getting worse -- :cry:
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Re: Ah, Airmanship, Where Has It Gone?

Post by bornagain1340 »

This is something that's been bugging me for a while and I'm glad to know that it isn't just me being overly critical of other people...I am getting older after all...
Example...an aircraft lands straight in to a 3000ft gravel strip with a 5-10kt tailwind (no overflying the aerodrome or anything like that...it takes too long), then to challenge him/herself even more tries to make it off by the taxiway (located midfield) using full reverse and brakes. The only thing I could see was the nose poking out of the giant cloud of sand/dirt/gravel. Then, while taxiing on the ramp for a parking spot, turns and blasts another aircraft with sand/dirt/gravel even though there was plenty of room to turn in from the other direction...
That's just one of many I've witnessed and can't wrap my head around the fact that they're completely oblivious to what they're doing! :smt021
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