Fact vs. Fiction

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Colonel Sanders
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Re: Fact vs. Fiction

Post by Colonel Sanders » Thu Apr 26, 2012 11:58 am

It's funny how often people with experience think it's important, and often people without experience think it isn't important.

Funny thing is, when you look at the job ads, what do they always look for? Experience :wink:
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TG
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Re: Fact vs. Fiction

Post by TG » Thu Apr 26, 2012 12:32 pm

Yes, experience is important.
Arrogance isn't necessary the best way to show it.

(This rant isn't for Cat & Doc)
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Re: Fact vs. Fiction

Post by Doc » Thu Apr 26, 2012 2:11 pm

CID wrote:Let's all whip out our dicks and measure. That's basically what most of the posts here amount to....
That's not what it's about at all. If you were even semi-literate, You'd know that.
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Re: Fact vs. Fiction

Post by Doc » Thu Apr 26, 2012 2:16 pm

Nark wrote:Point being that expirience isn't total time in a log book.
No it's not. You are correct there Nark. But there should be SOME time in a log book. What yard stick (metre stick here BTW) would you use to measure experience?
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CID
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Re: Fact vs. Fiction

Post by CID » Thu Apr 26, 2012 2:25 pm

I can read just find Doc. I can read that everyone has an angle as to why their history makes them better pilots than anyone else's brand. "I flew a Beaver". "I flew a crop duster". "I have more training". "I have more experience".

I've often heard people tell me that Robert Piche is a hero and an extremely competent pilot for doing what no other pilot could. Namely planting a powerless A330 down on a patch of dirt in the middle of the ocean. So....I guess having a criminal record makes you a good pilot. Or is it because he grew up speaking French? Or is it because he's white?

See how pointless this is? But hey, if it makes you happy....carry on!
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Re: Fact vs. Fiction

Post by Doc » Thu Apr 26, 2012 2:40 pm

CID wrote:I can read just find Doc. I can read that everyone has an angle as to why their history makes them better pilots than anyone else's brand. "I flew a Beaver". "I flew a crop duster". "I have more training". "I have more experience".

I've often heard people tell me that Robert Piche is a hero and an extremely competent pilot for doing what no other pilot could. Namely planting a powerless A330 down on a patch of dirt in the middle of the ocean. So....I guess having a criminal record makes you a good pilot. Or is it because he grew up speaking French? Or is it because he's white?

See how pointless this is? But hey, if it makes you happy....carry on!
Have to agree with you on that one.....pretty pointless. The "point" being? Oh, Hell with it....lets have a beer. Cheers CID!
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Re: Fact vs. Fiction

Post by KAG » Thu Apr 26, 2012 3:50 pm

This topic reminds me of the Single VS Multi IFR topic, lots of typing going in circles.
Opinions are like a$$holes-everyone has one. Lots of opinions on this thread...a few a$$holes too :smt040
relax that was a joke.
Anyway I wish the Seneca grads all the best, study hard and it will pay off. Also don't let it go to your heads and appreciate the oppertunity you have.
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Re: Fact vs. Fiction

Post by flying4dollars » Thu Apr 26, 2012 5:22 pm

Nark wrote:
flying4dollars wrote: I agree, 1000hours flying straight and level, normal ops etc isn't giving THAT big of an advantage. But, airplanes are not perfect and it's the things that happen between those 1000 hours that you learn (about the airplane, environment and even yourself) that gives experience a 1 up. It's not just about emergencies and aircraft system failures; it's also about operational considerations. Fuel, weather, passengers, comfort, airframe, performance etc. Yes, you learn some of these things in ground school/sim, but if you are a cadet, you cannot learn enough in 20-40 hours to bring you up to par with someone who's experienced.
You sir are absolutely right in that respect however;

Day to day normal operations, having a few thousand hours flying in the "bush" does not transfer all that much to what I do now. Lower and upper atmosphere weather is different. Pressurization, and jet engine performance is different. Crosswind landing's are different, as I have an engine on a pylon I have to be aware of.

In today's day and age, these large transport jets are very much systems management. I have to manage numerous systems, be it the FMS and Autopilot mode, while being situationally aware of where the jet is, and where it needs to go.
Hmm, you bring up a very valid point. I agree. I guess it depends on what that experience is coming into. With that being said, flying a turboprop in high density controlled airspace in an airline environment, then going to a major would be a prime example of where experience WILL prevail. Conversely, a pilot who flew Beavers and 206's in the bush and is going to a search and rescue, fire suppression, medevac role etc will also be carrying invaluable experience. The degree to which that experience makes a difference probably does go down a bit with a bush guy going to airline and an airline type guy going to bush. If that makes any sense.
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Re: Fact vs. Fiction

Post by DAVE THE RAVE » Sat Apr 28, 2012 12:51 pm

Cat Driver wrote: When I did my training in the A320 box in Toulouse and had finally reached a comfort level in it where me and one of my instructors ( An Airbus test pilot and French astronaut who had flown the space shuttle. ) decided to see who could do the shortest circuit in the simulator in direct law, I won the contest because he finally dragged a wing turning short final and crashed the airplane ( Sim. )

I credit my success in beating him to having flown in Ag work for eight years and water bombers for fifteen years as well as being the holder of a European air-display Authority for flying in the air show business.......ergo my experience in high command airplane handling skills at low level may have given me the edge over him. :mrgreen:

Thus it is my opinion that experience trumps training in a lot of cases.
Wow! I'll have to keep that in mind next time Orly tower requests a rapid visual circuit.
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Re: Fact vs. Fiction

Post by complexintentions » Sat Apr 28, 2012 1:57 pm

I'd wager a 777 is a far easier beast to master, what with auto-everything, than, say a DC6 on a windy strip in Anything Lake, Anywhere? Not talking computer systems here....just "handling" the beast.
Errm...no. I think you'd lose that bet. I haven't flown a DC6 (alas!), but I have flown a/c in its weight category and I have to say something weighing 240 tons isn't any easier or harder to operate than something weighing 50 tons. Different handling characteristics to be sure. I'll have to look for the "auto-everything" switch in the flight deck the next time I'm at work! ;-)

While I admire the ability to handle an airliner like an ag plane, I'm not sure the airlines see the value in that, in fact they tend to sorta frown on it...?
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Re: Fact vs. Fiction

Post by Cat Driver » Sat Apr 28, 2012 2:39 pm

Wow! I'll have to keep that in mind next time Orly tower requests a rapid visual circuit.
Orly tower probably wouldn't be interested in your demo Dave, but you could drop by at the Airbus factory and wow them with your skills. :rolleyes:
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Re: Fact vs. Fiction

Post by Doc » Sat Apr 28, 2012 3:32 pm

DAVE THE RAVE wrote: I am a training captain and TRE (type rating examiner), same as an ACP in Canada on the A319 for a major UK airline.
Seriously? Why all the interest in this side of the "pond"?
Call me curious.
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Re: Fact vs. Fiction

Post by Cat Driver » Sat Apr 28, 2012 4:28 pm

When you are sharing stuff with most of the posters here Doc you seldom ever know who you are communicating with because with anonymity comes the chances the poster has only flown into Orly on his/her computer flight sim.

If you are on approach to Orly in a Airbus A319 it is highly unlikely they will request an unusual maneuver so the comment made by Dave is nothing but poorly worded sarcasm. :smt040

I flew for about eight years in and out of Paris, but can not remember ever landing at Orly....we were based at le Bourget.
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Re: Fact vs. Fiction

Post by PT6onH20 » Sun Apr 29, 2012 6:25 pm

Doc wrote:
A large part of the problem Cat, as I see it, is the simple fact that actual "hands and feet" flying skill (outside of bush flying etc.) is just not as important to the airlines as it use to be. I'd wager a 777 is a far easier beast to master, what with auto-everything, than, say a DC6 on a windy strip in Anything Lake, Anywhere? Not talking computer systems here....just "handling" the beast.
I know I like to bitch and moan (as do you) the demise of the "good old days", but my friend, they are perhaps moments in the past.
Last time I checked, my airline doesnt stop flying on the windy days. With all the automation in the world, the plane I fly now still lands just like the old float planes I used to fly. Infact, my runways are shorter now, and I dont get to land directly into wind as much as I used to.

Lots of hate towards the lazy bus drivers, oddly enough from (seemingly) the guys who have never flown the line.
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Re: Fact vs. Fiction

Post by Meatservo » Sun Apr 29, 2012 6:49 pm

PT6onH20 wrote:
Lots of hate towards the lazy bus drivers, oddly enough from (seemingly) the guys who have never flown the line.
You know I was thinking the same thing. I think some of them bring it on themselves with the old "my job is so easy my eight year old daughter could do it" line. I've never understood why some professional pilots spend so much time trying to convince the world on one hand how easy they've got it, making it necessary for everyone else to get all stressed out trying to combat the popular image of a fat, incompetent boob complacently watching the world go by while the computers do the real work.

I think a lot of effort in years past went into countering the public perception that pilots were a bunch of arrogant braggarts, and now some kind of "social inertia" causes them to continue that rhetorical strategy, continuing to say "It's no big deal, really", years after the public started saying "you're right, it's not. Just get in and drive".

I'm sure like Cat Driver once pointed out, as long as aeroplanes still have rudders, elevators, and ailerons, and have rudder pedals and control columns, it still takes a particular skill to make the thing go where you want it, and we should all have at least a certain baseline of respect for one another. And while I'm on a soapbox, I'm getting tired of reading people slagging off the Air France pilots. Most of my friends who died in aeroplanes were "bush pilots", and it seems that Air France heavy jet crews are not the only people who sometimes forget how to manage low airspeed situations. For all the vaunted bush pilot "stick and rudder skills", most dead "bush pilots" wound up stalling them in too, or hitting immovable objects with less-than-irresistible force.

The original issue was whether a streamlined "cadet" program can produce first officers who are skillful enough to do the job, versus the traditional method of acquiring large amounts of PIC time before becoming an airline first officer. I would say the real evidence of one school of thought winning out over another would be in an analysis of the performance of new captains in a few years, when the first "cadets" are getting their upgrades.
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Re: Fact vs. Fiction

Post by Cat Driver » Sun Apr 29, 2012 7:56 pm

The world of flying has advanced far beyond what most of us understand when it comes to flying in the airline side of flying.

From what I observed during my last fifteen or so years in the industry the training industry has to take into consideration the new world of automation and the vast difference between what we grew up with and the reality of today.

I was fortunate to have worked for some of the worlds leaders in the industry including Air France, which also includes KLM now.

If one just stops to consider how many thousands of take off's and landings the airlines do every day and the number of accidents they have it is incredible how safe they are.

There will always be accidents as long as humans have control over any form of activity from playing hockey to flying jets.

The kids who go from zero to flying as cruise pilots on jets in Europe are really quite talented and fit just fine into the airline world.

Quite frankly I think the weeding out process to get rid of the drones works very well in the structured world of flying big jets.

. E.
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Re: Fact vs. Fiction

Post by Doc » Sun Apr 29, 2012 8:49 pm

I find myself no longer giving a rat's ass. Enjoy your day.
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