Allowing a Passenger to Take the Controls

This forum has been developed to discuss aviation related topics.

Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore, I WAS Birddog

cptn2016
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 155
Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2010 12:15 pm

Allowing a Passenger to Take the Controls

Post by cptn2016 »

I post this somewhat embarassed, as I've searched both the CARs and TC AIM numerous times (as well as these boards) and haven't found an answer (admittedly though my CARs search skills are still novice at best) - what are the rules regarding a private pilot allowing his unlicensed passenger to take the controls of an airplane in flight?

I know that the club I fly with prohibits it in their regulations, but it seems to me from talking to various people that it is not expressly prohibited by law. Of course only a licensed pilot may act as PIC with all the responsibilities that entails, but I haven't been able to find a rule or regulation stating that it's illegal. Nor have I found one expressly stating that it's ok, either.

Of course the whole point of fam flights is that the passenger takes control, but you have an instructor as PIC in that case, not a private pilot, and, correct me if I'm wrong, it's basically legally a training flight.

So, can anybody point me in the direction of the official opinion? Many humble thanks!
---------- ADS -----------
 
200hr Wonder
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2212
Joined: Tue Apr 26, 2005 1:52 pm
Location: CYVR
Contact:

Re: Allowing a Passenger to Take the Controls

Post by 200hr Wonder »

Call TC and ask, however if your club has it as a by-law or rule that it is not allowed, then by doing so you instantly voided the insurance.
---------- ADS -----------
 
CFR
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 784
Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2010 6:51 pm
Location: CYAV

Re: Allowing a Passenger to Take the Controls

Post by CFR »

Opinion only subject to revision, change, deletion, overriding by more experience knowledgable persons, etc however ...
Seems to me you can only touch the controls under two conditions, a) as a licensed pilot or b) when receiving instruction (licensed or not) from a certified flight instructor, hence an unlicensed person being allowed to fly with only a PPL in the plane would seem to me to not meet the conditions.

Now, a show of hands by everyone who has done it!?!?!

:oops:
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
Lost Lake
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1161
Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2008 5:11 am
Location: On top

Re: Allowing a Passenger to Take the Controls

Post by Lost Lake »

OMG!!! Let someone other than a "pilot" touch the controls? Instant engine failure, loss of aerlerons and iminent death spiral will be the result. I am speachless. :?: :roll:
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
Colonel Sanders
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 7512
Joined: Sun Jun 14, 2009 5:17 pm
Location: Over Macho Grande

Re: Allowing a Passenger to Take the Controls

Post by Colonel Sanders »

There is no specific CAR prohibiting this, so modulo
CAR 602.01 it is therefore legal.

Please remember at all times that you are PILOT IN
COMMAND and thus YOU are responsible for anything
that goes wrong during the flight.

Using your judgement as PIC. If you think it's safe
and it's legal, you can do it.

Not sure how the people above got their pilot licences,
frankly.
---------- ADS -----------
 
JMACK
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 348
Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2008 5:24 am
Location: N43°24.95' / W80°56.05'

Re: Allowing a Passenger to Take the Controls

Post by JMACK »

I let a very cute news reporter fly my Buffalo over Sudan. I think she was from the Washington post. She seemed quite pleased about the whole experience. It was the early 90's and on a foreign reg/cert.

Pretty sure statute of limitations should apply.

Was that wrong???? :wink:
---------- ADS -----------
 
robertsailor1
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 643
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2011 6:05 pm

Re: Allowing a Passenger to Take the Controls

Post by robertsailor1 »

Nope not as long as you got lucky
---------- ADS -----------
 
Doc
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 9241
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 6:28 am

Re: Allowing a Passenger to Take the Controls

Post by Doc »

We have a strict company policy regarding pax handling the controls. She must HOT.
---------- ADS -----------
 
DanWEC
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2312
Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2009 1:05 pm
Location: 404

Re: Allowing a Passenger to Take the Controls

Post by DanWEC »

What's she handling?
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
Lost Lake
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1161
Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2008 5:11 am
Location: On top

Re: Allowing a Passenger to Take the Controls

Post by Lost Lake »

On a flight with my family to Florida, the captain allowed me and my daughter on the flight deck. She sat on his knees and held the controls. He told her there was a plane in front and to honk the horn. She hit the auto pilot disarm button, horns going off in the cockpit. Never saw a captain move so fast. If she ever gets a license, she can put 1 tenth of an hour as PIC on a DC 10!

Seriously though, is there some problem in letting a pax touch the controls in a light airplane? I mean, their feet are already touching controls so the pilot is automatically in violation of the club rules.

Where is aviation going? Do they also have to get screened by CASARA before boarding? :roll:
---------- ADS -----------
 
cncpc
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1632
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 10:17 am

Re: Allowing a Passenger to Take the Controls

Post by cncpc »

Colonel Sanders wrote: Not sure how the people above got their pilot licences,
frankly.
Roger on that.
---------- ADS -----------
 
KT111
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 78
Joined: Fri Aug 29, 2008 1:23 pm
Location: Still up north

Re: Allowing a Passenger to Take the Controls

Post by KT111 »

Okay show of hands from those who on their first flight ever were able to take the controls in straight and level flight and give em a bit of a wiggle. Usually in a 172 or 152, cub, or whatever. Seriously. Did you EVER think there was something wrong with that or that it was dangerous when the pilot was encouraging you to do so and you knew he/she was still really flying the plane?

When the time came as a private pilot on a flight to let my pax experience the joy of taking the controls I did not even hesitate. It's not like I got up and went to the back to make coffee or anything.
---------- ADS -----------
 
fleet16b
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1195
Joined: Mon Nov 03, 2008 11:49 am
Location: aerodrome of democracy

Re: Allowing a Passenger to Take the Controls

Post by fleet16b »

I see nothing wrong with it as long as you(PIC) are monitoring what is happening.
My wife occasionally flies with me and I have let her keep the a/c level while I
am inputting into the GPS sometimes.
I have also taught her the basics of how to get the a/c down to the ground safely in case I become incapacitated during a flight.
She has never really landed but she knows enough that would get her down good enough to hopefully walk away.

When I was young , I remember hanging around airports and pilots rarely took kids for ride and we all yearned to fly.
I said I would never be that kind of pilot., so lots of kids get to ride in my biplane.-.
As a result, I have let kids fly the airplane, I look at it as a chance to give back to something that has given me much joy. It is also an investment for the industry as that kid may catch the flying bug.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Last edited by fleet16b on Sun Aug 19, 2012 4:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
cptn2016
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 155
Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2010 12:15 pm

Re: Allowing a Passenger to Take the Controls

Post by cptn2016 »

Colonel, thanks, that's pretty much what I suspected, and I did read this in the CARs. I thought there might be some other specific mention of this kind of thing though.

Now, I guess a logical follow-up to this. Since the club I rent from prohibits it, I obviously cannot teach those I regularily fly with some basic maneouvers to use if I am ever incapacitated. Not hands-on, anyway.

So with this restriction in mind, what are some of the things I could do to give the passenger a better chance of saving their own life (and maybe mine) if something goes wrong? Of course there are the things usually covered in the passenger briefing - activate the ELT, push-to-talk and let someone know what's happened, don't panic, etc.

Sort of assuming and hoping that someone hears the mayday and coaches them down seems inadequate and improbable. And trying to tell them before the flight how to find a suitable landing area, set up for a landing, etc. seems useless - they would never retain even 20% of it and without having ever done it before, the information would likely be useless anyway.

Two things that come to mind - sit down at home with MS Flight Sim to teach some basics. It would control much differently but it would give them an idea of what to expect; and take them for a fam flight or even a lesson or two so that an instructor can teach them what they need to know to give themselves a better chance of survival.

So those of you that have been flying privately and professionaly, is there anything you tell your pax to do beyond just turning on the ELT and hoping for your miraculous recovery?
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
Shiny Side Up
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 5335
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2004 5:02 pm
Location: Group W bench

Re: Allowing a Passenger to Take the Controls

Post by Shiny Side Up »

One of the things I've learned from teaching people to fly for this relatively short time is that there are a lot fo people that for some reason fantasize about emergencies happening to them way too often. If you're really worried about your passengers being able to take over and make the news then just encourage them to do some flying lessons. Some schools hold a passenger course for those who want it if its a real bee in your bonnet.

Have you already become that bored flying the airplane already?
---------- ADS -----------
 
Doc
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 9241
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 6:28 am

Re: Allowing a Passenger to Take the Controls

Post by Doc »

If you don't have the confidence in your abilities to allow a passenger to piss with the controls as a guest, you should be flipping burgers. You have NO business in an airplane. Could we dumb this thing down any further for some of you people??
I doubt it.
---------- ADS -----------
 
fleet16b
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1195
Joined: Mon Nov 03, 2008 11:49 am
Location: aerodrome of democracy

Re: Allowing a Passenger to Take the Controls

Post by fleet16b »

Shiny Side Up wrote:One of the things I've learned from teaching people to fly for this relatively short time is that there are a lot fo people that for some reason fantasize about emergencies happening to them way too often. If you're really worried about your passengers being able to take over and make the news then just encourage them to do some flying lessons. Some schools hold a passenger course for those who want it if its a real bee in your bonnet.

Have you already become that bored flying the airplane already?
SSU
I think you are being a bit too critical.
I would not go so far to say they fantasize about emergencies but one should definitely think about the what ifs and be prepared for unforseen events if possible . It's good flight planning
Really its along the same line as watching for good fields to land in.
I for one have not become bored with flying and dont really worry about someone having to take over if they have to but in the rare case that something happens, at least they would have a fighting chance
My wife has no desire to take flying lessons and has flown with me for many years and enjoys just sightseeing as we fly.
Obviously it would not be realistic to try to train every passenger you take but if you have people that frequently fly with you then why not give them some basics. It might just save both of your lives.
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
Lost Lake
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1161
Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2008 5:11 am
Location: On top

Re: Allowing a Passenger to Take the Controls

Post by Lost Lake »

Doc wrote:If you don't have the confidence in your abilities to allow a passenger to piss with the controls as a guest, you should be flipping burgers. You have NO business in an airplane. Could we dumb this thing down any further for some of you people??
I doubt it.
I don't think so Doc. All these pilots are worried they're going to have a heart attach or something else to incapacitate them. What if the windshield blows in, what if a wing falls off, what if I fall through the floor, what if I piss my pants and it melts the floor bolts on the seat rails, what if I accidently swallow my mike while trying to sound like an airline pilot and choke to death!!! Whew. Thank god my career's almost over. I don't think I could handle one of these guys in the right seat. I'll keep reading this comedy but I don't have the stomach to sayanymore.

What if I was reading this thread on my ipad in flight and laughed myself to death while pissing my self with laughter? When you die, your bowels release and my I guess is the guy/gal next to you would rather die than smell you on the way down. :smt040
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
Shiny Side Up
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 5335
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2004 5:02 pm
Location: Group W bench

Re: Allowing a Passenger to Take the Controls

Post by Shiny Side Up »

Letting them try the controls is one thing Doc, this:
So with this restriction in mind, what are some of the things I could do to give the passenger a better chance of saving their own life (and maybe mine) if something goes wrong? Of course there are the things usually covered in the passenger briefing - activate the ELT, push-to-talk and let someone know what's happened, don't panic, etc.

Sort of assuming and hoping that someone hears the mayday and coaches them down seems inadequate and improbable. And trying to tell them before the flight how to find a suitable landing area, set up for a landing, etc. seems useless - they would never retain even 20% of it and without having ever done it before, the information would likely be useless anyway.

Two things that come to mind - sit down at home with MS Flight Sim to teach some basics. It would control much differently but it would give them an idea of what to expect; and take them for a fam flight or even a lesson or two so that an instructor can teach them what they need to know to give themselves a better chance of survival.
Is a good way to suck the fun out of an airplane ride for your passengers and probably needlessly scare them. Doesn't anyone just enjoy turning fuel into noise and watching the scenery anymore?
---------- ADS -----------
 
cptn2016
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 155
Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2010 12:15 pm

Re: Allowing a Passenger to Take the Controls

Post by cptn2016 »

Ok, I think there may be a little too much reading in between the lines going on here. I am not 'fantasizing about emergencies', I am not 'bored with flying the plane', and I am not lacking the confidence to allow my passenger to 'piss with the controls'. I'm simply thinking aloud (in a manner of speaking) about a hypothetical situation (extremely unlikely as it may be), trying to get a discussion going. Period. How exactly am I dumbing things down?

I know what I've described will likely never happen, just as an engine failure will likely never happen. Doesn't mean I shouldn't think about it or be at least somewhat prepared for it. And to reiterate, I'd love for my passenger to be able to take the controls from time to time but it is against club policy. Again, pretty cut and dried here. I'm not going to be breaking that rule. So I was simply looking for some outside-the-box ideas.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Post Reply

Return to “General Comments”