Stay away from the edge:

[Cat Driver]

For many decades I have been reading about accident after accident where perfectly serviceable airplanes are flown into the ground and injuring or killing the occupants because the pilot got to close to the edge of either the weather limits or the airplanes stalling / spinning envelope.

Some of these accidents are the result of deliberately flying into weather beyond their or the airplanes capability or exceeding the airplanes flight envelope and some are because the pilots just plain allowed the limits to be exceeded through ignorance of what was happening.

Wouldn't it make more sense to teach them not to get to close to the edge period, rather than giving them partial training in instrument flying and spin training?

[Shiny Side Up]

I dunno Cat, one of the unfortunate facts of life seems to be that some people have to learn the hard way, or in some cases die trying. Fortunately most of us are able to learn from the mistakes of others or we wouldn't have survived transitioning from the trees to the savannah. Somehow through blind luck that gene that somehow disables one's sense of self preservation has managed to persist.

[Sidebar]

Human nature seems to be to seek out the edges. Most people survive, learn from it, and change their behaviour. Others either don't survive, or don't learn from it and repeat the experience with bad results.

My suggestion is to teach people where the edges of the envelope are and let them experience and respect it.

[black hole]

I believe that the edge is different for every pilot. And that the edge moves around depending on the daily physical, metabolic and psycological presents that controls the situation awareness of each of us. Also the training and experience move the edge as well. Just a thought!???

BH

[Lost Lake]

I wonder about spin recovery training. Me thinks that if you are stupid enough to put am airplane into a spin, you are not going to recover. More training on avoidance would be better spent. Never had to do a spin for PPC! Just show recovery from an impending stall. Some humans, however, will always challenge gospel, i.e. thunderstorms. wind sheers. night flying, and no amount of training will help. I did enjoy my spin training though. My instructor was an ex aerobatic flyer.

[Cat Driver]

For sure the edge with regard to our physical and or mental state can vary from day to day and with experience we learn to identify our abilities from flight to flight as far as our personal abilities are concerned...based on how we feel at the time.

My comments are focused on the edge as far as weather and the airplane flight envelope is concerned.

Weather is something that can be seen.....if you are flying under the VFR rules.

There should be no excuse for flying into below VFR weather and then crashing because you can not see anything.

The flight envelope is not all that difficult to understand and there really should be no excuse for pushing too close to the edge and then losing control and crashing.

In other words these issues are really basic airmanship and using common sense to stay within the envelope.

[Cat Driver]

For sure the edge with regard to our physical and or mental state can vary from day to day and with experience we learn to identify our abilities from flight to flight as far as our personal abilities are concerned...based on how we feel at the time.

My comments are focused on the edge as far as weather and the airplane flight envelope is concerned.

Weather is something that can be seen.....if you are flying under the VFR rules.

There should be no excuse for flying into below VFR weather and then crashing because you can not see anything.

The flight envelope is not all that difficult to understand and there really should be no excuse for pushing to close to the edge and then losing control and crashing.

In other words these issues are really basic airmanship and using common sense to stay within the envelope.

[spaner]

Perhaps the industry should start identifying these character traits as aggressive vs offensive. Promoting, during recurrent training, one over the other. It would seem to me that there is a direct correlation between both man vs machine interaction, and negative operational outcomes.

I know myself, while approaching a red-light, I take my foot off the gas. Then observe others passing me, to get to the red-light first. Sometimes abruptly changing lanes to get around and pass me, accelerating, then with maximum braking...to arrive at the red-light one-half block away. They continue to drive like this all through town in an aggressive manner, sometimes "taking it to the edge". I ask how can this type not learn through experience that the "granny driver" arrives at the same Homedepot 30 seconds after they did. Granny having saved 25% on the fuel, and no scratches. I'm still happy and whistling, while they are angry and agitated. There is no doubt that there are two distinct character trait camps when it comes to vehicle operation and management.

Add to the mix "man vs environment" and you have a perfect storm type example of negative outcomes in relation to "taking it to the edge".

[bizjets101]

How's this;

[flyinthebug]

I think half the problem is actually finding where the line is? TC has made it their business to produce so many grey areas that it is difficult even for the most mature pilot to find where the edge really is. You have guys on the coast flying in 1/2-3/4 mile vis and 300' and somehow thats not the edge? For a guy thats flown the coast for 30 years, its likely not very close to his or her edge, but would be far beyond the edge for many others lacking the experience (even though we all know that flying in these conditions is illegal). When I started flying floats on the coast, I became intimidated to say NO. I said no twice...once some cowboy colleague of mine made me look foolish by jumping up and offering to do the flight. The 2nd time I said no, I was fired on the dock. I regret NEITHER decision, as I knew where my "edge" was. I guess thats why I only lasted 4 years on the coast, as I choose to stay alive over getting the pop and chips there on time.

With the implemetation of SMS on the 703 level, I can only imagine how much more added pressure is being put on the younger pilots to do trips that more mature and experienced pilots would all say no to. There is NO protection for whistleblowers, and on 703 whistleblowers are pretty much ignored or chastized (fined) for their efforts to improve safety. TCA has made sure of that.

The edge is a grey area that has several diffrent "jump off" points for those with experience...its that grey area that entices the less experienced to push the envelope. As has been said in many threads, you cant teach maturity or common sense. Thats either genetically present or its not.

Fly safe all.

[Rockie]

As has been said in many threads, you cant teach maturity or common sense. Thats either genetically present or its not.

I agree with everything you've written except this part. Mentoring can be instrumental in teaching younger pilots how to recognize and trust when their instincts are telling them not to do something. Mentoring is also necessary to teach a young pilot that it's infinitely better to drive home unemployed than take unnecessary risks in the air and become a tragic headline. Unfortunately mentoring doesn't exist in many companies including mine.

[Beefitarian]

Companies are not about to encourage mentoring. Why would they want people to talk some sense into the guys that are raring to risk their lives to "get the job done!" ?

[126.7_STFU]

Disagree with original post, because shit happens. When said shit happens, I want to know what to do. Perhaps transport should introduce some sort of motor skills / common sense testing with every license. You pass or you don't 5 year wait periods under the age of 21... 10 year wait periods for those over (if they fail). I will train to make sure I never venture towards the end of my "limits" period. I'm sure you Cat and Doc could design such an exam

[flyinthebug]

I agree 100% Rockie. Mentorship is a vital ingredient in the flight training process...as well as throughout ones career. The Chief Pilot used to have this role for his/her crew. I was fortunate enough to have a REAL CP at the 1st 2 air services I worked for. The mentorship they provided still have an impact on me today. My point was simply that some people lack this "common sense" gene, and all the mentoring in the world wont stop them from "peeking" over the edge. Much like we all did as kids...pushed the limits and found out where the line was through trial and error. As pilots, we do not have that luxury as one error can equal your last error.

Due to the changes to the CP role over the last say 30 years, they no longer have the ability to mentor as they once did...for the reasons beefitarian pointed out. The CP used to be the liase between line pilots and management. Pilots felt comfortable taking their concerns to the CP and expected some understanding and support. Now that TC mandated the position as "management" the CP becomes more and more about how many beans are left to count each day and less about the concerns of his/her flight crew. Thats my perception as a former CP.

Back to the topic...sorry for the mini hijack Cat. I just think its all relevant to your topic.

Fly safe all.

[Adam Oke]

Companies are not about to encourage mentoring. Why would they want people to talk some sense into the guys that are raring to risk their lives to "get the job done!" ?

Mentorship is not teaching. Whether you realize it or not, everyone performs some function of a mentor (good or bad).

Basically you can break down mentorship into two different function that can be broken down even further. First being career function and the second being psychological. Career functions would be things like networking, coaching, and exposure to different opportunities. I think what we are after as co-workers/fellow pilots fall more under the psychological functions, such as role modeling and counselling. Generally, this type of mentorship is informal and it is the protege that finds this type. If you can make an effort as an experienced pilot to provide for the psychological functions of mentorship, than your seccessors will be much better off "staying away from the edge". I think we can safely assume that everyone is taught to "stay away from the edge" during ab-initio training with hard and fast rules (VFR wx minima etc). Proteges venture away from the envelope because they have seen or heard otherwise from what they perceive as a mentor.

Stressing mentorship, or at least being well aware that you ARE a mentor in this business is very important. Everyone is a mentor, whether you like it or not. What you do, positively or negatively, will reflect what you proteges do in each respective manner. Is this a responsibility of a Company to enforce, or have formal mentoship? Well, that is certainly is up for debate ... but do not confusing formal confrontation/teaching methods as mentorship. They are two entirely different things.

CS was more on the right track that you can't teach common sense (In a different thread)...vs teaching SOP's for example. However, you can be a mentor and an excellent role model for your proteges.

[Beefitarian]

Fair enough and in a way you can't teach maturity and experience. However you can teach or explain things that can assist in gaining experience in constructive manners.

Example I flew from Calgary to Washington D.C. Somewhat soon after getting my PPL. At Mitchell South Dekota it was quite windy. I was unsure of myself and also did not want to break my rental agreement. Eventually I decided the winds had come down to the point of being ok and we departed.

Later my brother told me a guy at the FBO told him he should be looking for a different pilot.

Fourtunately I felt no pressure and when the guy spoke to me he was more encouraging saying, "It's fine, I allready flew this morning, no problem." If I went back I might agree now that I have flown in more cross winds.

If he'd made the mistake of hiring me it might have went down differently. Instead of helping me through by riding along to build my confidence, it could have been, "Get out there and fly. You have a certificate. Any pilot should easily be able to handle this wind." Under the pressure I might rise to the occasion. Then again I might not.

Sometimes experience is a legitimate edge that needs to be expanded. How do you tell the difference between that and the edge of actual safety? Experience no? Also doesn't lack of experience in some cases create legitimate edges that will move as you learn to properly deal with winds?

[Expat]

Good post Cat.

On the spin issue, my CPL instructor loved spins, and tought me how to love them too. No problem there, as I would later go and do spins on Sunday mornings.

Although not being IFR rated, my night flying in the north tought me how to fly on instruments only. So the occasionnal clouds never did not pose problems. Having read about CFIT accidents, I decided to be prepared, and learned how to stay far from the ground, even on VFR flights.

The instruments are in the planes, and every pilot should be able to use them to their full extent.

Sometimes, I compare flying to driving. The fact that drivers get a licence after doing a test on dry pavement on a sunny day does not not mean that they cannot drive a car at night in a snow storm, on ice. Common sense must prevail. They have to learn more than the basics.
My flight instructor told me when I got my license, that it was a license to learn more.

My 2 cents...

[Masters Off]

Adam brings up a good point. We all influence eachother. Actually, Adam himself has influenced and assisted me in my path thus far, and I thank him for that.

And yes, we should all be well aware on what each piece of the airplane can do for us. If I hold a PPL and have been trained on a Cessna 172, the ADF, VOR, GPS, etc. should all be well explained. I feel that when I did my PPL, the short amount of time spent on instruments was rediculous. And most of that was spent in a tempermental simulator that displayed nothing near the controls of the airplane I was flying. I was so caught up in trying to simply control the touchy, pitchy simulator that my VOR/ADF training, I think, was useless.
By the time I got to my CPL, I felt much better, and some actual focus was added. Still, I was left repeating timed turns with continually difficult descents/climbs, turns, instrument failures. Only after that I had to scramble in 15 hours to learn actual instrument procedures...not the way I'd like to have someone learn instrument flying.

We all have responsibility to stand up for our own safety, even if it costs us our jobs. However, we also should be standing up for eachother in these situations. As a small company's Chief Pilot, I stood up on a few occasions for my guys when the clients wanted work done, and it couldn't be. I also gained the respect that when I said no, it didn't happen. I knew my limits. Not to say I haven't had my bad moments, and trial and error have taught me there. I wish it wouldn't have had to learn that way.

I guess my short answer then is; I believe we should know what we're doing, understand our instruments, systems, etc.
We should also be taught our limits, explain that they can be expanded over time, and that just because we have the ticket doesn't mean we know everything. Just because I have an IFR doesn't mean I'm comfortable doing an ILS to minimums at this very moment.

[dash8dave]

Wouldn't it make more sense to teach them not to get to close to the edge period, rather than giving them partial training in instrument flying and spin training?

Hey Cat et al. This is generally a good idea but it is not happening in our training environments. In fact I am seeing the exact opposite. I am currently flying a Dash 8 and have come back from sim. Because of the Roselawn accident, we are now training into the stick pusher for stall recovery.

During PPL/CPL training we used to train to first indication of the stall; usually the horn or buffet. Then we recover. Now we are being trained to fly through these indications. In the transport level/2 crew environment my first indication is the person sitting beside me calling my attention to my airspeed decay. Should I decide to ignore that, at 140kts with gear and flaps up I get a very loud buzzer that cannot be muted. If I am still asleep along with my partner, we then have a stick shaker to wake us up. Finally, comes the stick pusher.

To me, this is an excellent example of negative training. I am being 'taught' to ignore all these outside warnings. To find the edge, if you will. Does it make me a safer pilot??? That is debatable. Does it give me an appreciation for what the aeroplane will do to save itself and occupants? It sure does. So how do we train younger pilots to appreciate the warning systems in the plane if we negatively reinforce to them that it is OK. In my PPL, my instructor took me up in a 152 and stalled it and said "look how well it flies in a full stall. The nose just mushes over and we are descending at 500 feet per minute." In real life the aeroplane doesn't just nose over because the pilot is generally looking outside trying to maneouver to land. Stall/spins from low altitude usualy don't end well.

I have the luxury to train with the best, in well equipped and "SAFE" simulators. These lessons are not repeatable in a real aircraft to this extent, but a real appreciation of the systems and what they are trying to tell you is vital in preventing future accidents. Was I always trained this way? No way, many lessons were learned by the old school of hard knocks and those lessons have stayed with me forever.

Our flight instrucors (some of whom don't have much more time than their students) have been empowered to train new pilots. It falls upon industry to ensure these new pilots are trained not just to standard but proficiency and competence as well. We (Operators) have to tell the FTO's what we need in newly minted pilots. The Regulations gives us the Standard; but we need trained pilots who are beyond standard and not just for Commercial Operators but PPL and Recreational as well.

Sorry, end rant.

[flyinthebug]

Wouldn't it make more sense to teach them not to get to close to the edge period, rather than giving them partial training in instrument flying and spin training?

Hey Cat et al. This is generally a good idea but it is not happening in our training environments. In fact I am seeing the exact opposite. I am currently flying a Dash 8 and have come back from sim. Because of the Roselawn accident, we are now training into the stick pusher for stall recovery.

During PPL/CPL training we used to train to first indication of the stall; usually the horn or buffet. Then we recover. Now we are being trained to fly through these indications. In the transport level/2 crew environment my first indication is the person sitting beside me calling my attention to my airspeed decay. Should I decide to ignore that, at 140kts with gear and flaps up I get a very loud buzzer that cannot be muted. If I am still asleep along with my partner, we then have a stick shaker to wake us up. Finally, comes the stick pusher.

To me, this is an excellent example of negative training. I am being 'taught' to ignore all these outside warnings. To find the edge, if you will. Does it make me a safer pilot??? That is debatable. Does it give me an appreciation for what the aeroplane will do to save itself and occupants? It sure does. So how do we train younger pilots to appreciate the warning systems in the plane if we negatively reinforce to them that it is OK. In my PPL, my instructor took me up in a 152 and stalled it and said "look how well it flies in a full stall. The nose just mushes over and we are descending at 500 feet per minute." In real life the aeroplane doesn't just nose over because the pilot is generally looking outside trying to maneouver to land. Stall/spins from low altitude usualy don't end well.

I have the luxury to train with the best, in well equipped and "SAFE" simulators. These lessons are not repeatable in a real aircraft to this extent, but a real appreciation of the systems and what they are trying to tell you is vital in preventing future accidents. Was I always trained this way? No way, many lessons were learned by the old school of hard knocks and those lessons have stayed with me forever.

Our flight instrucors (some of whom don't have much more time than their students) have been empowered to train new pilots. It falls upon industry to ensure these new pilots are trained not just to standard but proficiency and competence as well. We (Operators) have to tell the FTO's what we need in newly minted pilots. The Regulations gives us the Standard; but we need trained pilots who are beyond standard and not just for Commercial Operators but PPL and Recreational as well.

Sorry, end rant.

No need to apologize. Excellent rant!! +1