IFR certified GPS Question

[cap41]

Hello, Can someone provide a list of approved GPS units for IFR flight in Canada. I have looked at TC website and cannot find a list. I have a VFR Cesnna 150G. There are no IFR instruments. I was thinking for the same cost of renting a IFR equipped airplane for the 40 hours I could install an approved GPS unit and do the training in my 150G.

I was looking at the Garmin GNS-430. I may need a radio repaired So im thinking this unit can work as a NAV/COM/GPS.

Of course I am looking for the cheapest solution possible.

btw, is it a major cost to install a unit like this?

[JAHinYYC]

In 2009-2010 my partner and I upgraded the radios in our Mooney 231 to include a GNS430W coupled to the factory autopilot. Since we installed an Aspen PFD at the same time we didn't need to budget for the glideslope indicator. If we had needed one I am advised it was about $1500.

The unit itself was approximately $5000 and the labour to install was an additional $5000 based on about 30hrs of work. Our annual subscription to the Jeppesen database update costs US$500/yr.

I should add that I think Garmin is on the verge of discontinuing the 430/530 line in favor of the new kid on the block, so not sure if these units remain available or attractive in light of what is tto come.

In terms of your plan to train IFR with it, consider what you will do about ADF related work (holds, approachs) and if not transponder equiped - the need to add this to the panel for working in controlled airspace.

If you do go ahead with this post photos...it will be the fanciest C150 around!

[cap41]

I do have a transponder KT76A.

The way i look at it. 7k just in aircraft rental for the 40hours needed for IFR. Not to mention continued chk flights, and practice to stay current. i'm looking for some sort of used GPS/NAV/COM solution in the 7-9k installed range. Anyone know in the GTA area where i may be able to accomplish this?

[JAHinYYC]

I'm looking for some sort of used GPS/NAV/COM solution in the 7-9k installed range. Anyone know in the GTA area where i may be able to accomplish this?

I put a 250XL GPS/Nav/Com into the C150 I owned before the Mooney and it was in the $5K range installed, but still VFR only.

Beware the plethora of 430s on the market that don't have the WAAS capability. Cheap, but not certifiable into a new install I don't think.

[cap41]

I need a solution that will provide IFR acceptable training. i'm new to aviation if you can't tell. im not sure if there is an affordable solution.

Looking for any advice any GPS unit that can accomplish my goal of certified IFR training/flying.

[old_man]

Why do you need a GPS to do IFR training?

[pelmet]

Isn't there something about not being able to use an IFR GPS for actual IFR after installation until TC does some sort of aircraft specific paperwork for a fee?

[Colonel Sanders]

aircraft specific paperwork

You hope that the shop has installed that particular
unit into that particular aircraft type before, so in your
case it goes a carbon copy install - GPS antenna in
same location, etc.

If this is the case, all you have to do is a quickie
checklist as a pilot. I had to do that when we had
a IFR install of a G530 into the 421.

I would shop around and compare south of the
border. Probably cheaper to have it done in
the USA.

PS I can't see Garmin discontinuing support for
the 430/530 any time soon. They'd have a riot
on their hands - there are thousands of units in
the field in current service.

[cap41]

Why do you need a GPS to do IFR training?

I own a 150 with just VFR instruments. No ADF, VOR etc. Since it will cost approximately 6600$ (40x$165) in fees just to rent the airplane with IFR equipment. I thought if I could get a GPS certified for IFR training installed for 8-9K I would be ahead of the game. I could do all the training, check rides etc stay current in my own plane. Plus i would increase the value of our airplane.

[Colonel Sanders]

Just keep in mind that an IFR C150 is often not
very useful for IFR x/c in Canada because of the
lack of range which can really cause you trouble
when it comes time to select an alternate.

Also, just like for VFR, any kind of noticeable wind
aloft will probably cause you even more difficulty
flight planning a legal alternate because of the slow
cruise speed.

30 knots of headwind is annoying in an M20J which
cruises at 160KTAS with 6 hrs fuel, but 30 knots of
headwind in a C150 means you probably can't get
there legally IFR. Maybe not even legall VFR.

There's a reason you never see IFR-equipped C150/152
and that's because they were designed by Cessna to
be trainers - not x/c machines. A C150/152 with a
G430 is a machine for doing local holds and approaches,
but beware that you're going to p1ss off ATC if you try
to fly an ILS in the soup because of the slow approach
speed - you're going to back jet traffic up which is going
to approach at least 50 knots faster than you, and ATC
isn't going to be very happy about that. Personally, I
like to have fun at that game - more than once in the
Pitts and the 421, ATC has asked for a speed reduction
from me, for kerosene burners ahead of me

Also while the C152 has the Lyc O-235, the C150 has
the TCM O-200 which is notorious for carb icing, and
you're going to fly it in cloud, without a carb temp
gauge? I have done some pretty crazy sh1t in my life
and gotten TC extremely angry at me, but IMHO flying
a TCM O-200 or O-300 or O-470 in cloud without at
least a carb temp gauge is a pretty clear contravention
of CAR 602.01 (my favorite) and involves a level of risk
exceeeding that of surface level aerobatics, which I do
all the time.

Heck, you probably don't even know when to apply carb
heat, or what to do immediately after you apply carb heat.
Not many PPL's or CPL's do.

[slam525i]

PS I can't see Garmin discontinuing support for
the 430/530 any time soon. They'd have a riot
on their hands - there are thousands of units in
the field in current service.

Colonel is right. Garmin won't discontinue support. They're discontinuing the product line in terms of sales, but they're not discontinuing the line in terms of support. (http://garmin.blogs.com/my_weblog/2011/ ... 00-of.html)

Garmin still supports their ancient aviation GPSes; you can even buy database updates for the old GPS III Pilot.

[Edo]

Sure you can get a Garmin 430 in your plane, sure you can get it IFR certified. But you also said you do not have any other IFR instruments.

To complete your training you are going to need and ADF and VOR with glideslope at a minimum. You cannot fly an ILS on a GPS, and you need and ADF to identily the final approach fix. You also need to know how to fly VOR and ADF approaches.

To be IFR certified you also must have another way to navigate if the GPS fails (VOR ADF or a second IFR GPS) By the time you do all this you will find its a lot cheaper to rent.

[costermonger]

As I understand it, Garmin isn't willing to repair the GNS430A (non-WAAS), but they'll continue to support upgrades to the 430W.

[KnownIce]

If the OP's desire is to obtain IFR training as cheaply as possible, and he already has an inexpensive to operate airplane, would not installing a used NAV/COM/GS and ADF be the cheapest option? It would get the rating, not much else, but that seems to be what he's asking for. And have no ongoing subscriptions fees to stay legal compared to GPS.

Somewhat related -- has anyone seen the VAL INS 429 used in Canada? It is not TSO'd, but allowed for use IFR in the USA in homebuilts, not sure here in Canada. It's basically a cheap all-in-one NAV radio/GS (no comm) solution.

[ahramin]

Lots of misinformation on this thread.

Adding an IFR GPS to your VFR panel will not mean that your aircraft is IFR capable. For example, do you have an alternate static air source? As the Colonel has already said, you need to consider the entire aircraft.

There is a list in the CARs of what your aircraft needs, go find it and read it carefully. On that list you'll notice that you need to be able to continue navigating after the failure of any single unit or display. So even though the 430 already has everything you need to go IFR (GPS/ILS/VOR) you still need a backup, hopefully you already have a VOR installed, but I've seen lots of 150s without.

Don't pay any attention to the rantings about ADF. You don't need or want one.

[C-GKNT]

Just keep in mind that an IFR C150 is often not
very useful for IFR x/c in Canada because of the
lack of range which can really cause you trouble
when it comes time to select an alternate.

...

Colonel,

Lots of valid points BUT... all airplanes are a compromise. The biggest area of compromise is probably cost (otherwise I'd be flying a Citation Mustang or a G-IV). It seems to me that cap41 is trying to do things within his budget, not everybody can afford to fly a Pitt or a C421. Buy the best airplane within your budget, fly it within its limitations. Sometime I (we?) forget how fortunate I am to be able to have/fly my own airplane.

Glenn

[CID]

Garmin discontinued manufacture of the non-WAAS GNS-400/500 series and will discontinue the WAAS versions soon enough in favour of the GTN-600/700 series.

There really is no reliable list of "IFR" GPS systems. There used to be but that was when there was only one "flavour" of IFR for GPS. You need to determine what kind of IFR flying you want to do and whether or not it's OK to do "simulated" IFR rather than "actual".

CAR 605.18 says that for IFR, you need:

(j) sufficient radio navigation equipment to permit the pilot, in the event of the failure at any stage of the flight of any item of that equipment, including any associated flight instrument display,

(i) to proceed to the destination aerodrome or proceed to another aerodrome that is suitable for landing, and

(ii) where the aircraft is operated in IMC, to complete an instrument approach and, if necessary, conduct a missed approach procedure.

So to meet this rule you need to know your operational requirements too. Will you be flying in to airports that only have an NDB approach published? Or just a RNAV approach published? And if RNAV, then what minima do you want to shoot for?

Once you determine that you can figure out if you need a GPS installation that is approved for IFR enroute only or for non-precision approaches or also precision approach.

Once you have a unit picked out, the installation needs to be done to meet the operational requirements. For example, IFR enroute can use an auxiliary deviation indicator but approach approval requires deviation to be displayed on the primary navigation instrument. In most cases you will also need an altitude input from your encoder (at least).

The current accepted guidance (yes, even for Transport Canada) is contained in FAA AC 20-138C. You can find it here:

http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guida ... t?OpenPage

Just do a search for 138C.

[cap41]

Yes i know there are many issues. My thoughts were if its going to cost 7k to rent. I would be ahead of the game paying 10k to have a unit installed. In a year or two I will sell the 150 and move on. With the GPS installed the value of the plane increases. I also have the option of pulling it and selling it separately. I recognize the limitations of the 150 I am not planning on using it for long cross country. I just wanted to see if installing a GPS unit IFR Certified would be a viable option. I also wanted to know if anyone had any suggestions for certified units.

[Colonel Sanders]

Skip the IFR GPS. I suggest:

- good used KX-155 (with GS)
- KI-209 indicator (w/GS)
- good used KR-87 ADF and indicator with
combined antenna - no clothesline

The above package is minimal but legal for IFR in
Canada: VHF Comm, VOR/LOC/GS and ADF.

You already have a mode C transponder, so hopefully
it won't be a big deal to pass the 24 months pitot-static
check - hopefully you won't be in for thousands of dollars
to replace all your old leaky static lines, rebuild all of the
leaky ASI, VSI, altimeter.

I hope you have alternate static and heated pitot. If
not, you're going to need them, too.

Also, you're going to need a good attitude indicator
and a good heading indicator that does not precess
too fast. I might suggest new, rather than rebuild.
Replace your dry vacuum pump at the same time,
and thereafter at 500 hr intervals.

I also might suggest tossing the airpath compass and
replacing with vertical card compass. They can be
tricky to swing but are golden for partial panel.

For GPS, get yourself a good VFR portable unit and
either strap it to the control column like everyone
else, or install it in the panel if you have space with
an airgizmo docking station.

The avionics people will push an expensive audio
panel on you but you don't need one with one comm -
all you need is to plumb the ADF audio out.

You will need a decent panel mount intercom, plumbed
to the COMM and two sets of jacks. I might recommend
PS Engineering.

Remember that every $1,000 you spend on your
airplane increases it's value by $500 max. Keep that
in mind, but given what you are going to spend on
a rental, it might be possible to pull this off without
losing your shirt.

I might recommend a reputable shop in the USA
to do this. You will save a bucket of money and
get it done much faster.

[cap41]

I don't have alternative Static line or heated pitot.

That in mind what does someone figure the above improvement would cost. I have a 150G with. encoding transponder, and narco 120 com.

Really don't want to fly my plane to USA to get this done. But, cash is king!