The F-35 is not dead

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Illya Kuryakin
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Re: The F-35 is not dead

Post by Illya Kuryakin »

timel wrote:
Not only Russia is claiming the ressources in North pole, but the Denmark, Norway and USA.
So far Russians are in a good position with Murmansk city and 300 000 citizens. Canada has Alert with 73 people.

I was thinking F35 vertical take off capability would provide us a great ability to cover the wide Canadian territory. But seems like the F35A Canada wants to get does not have the option.
Do people honestly believe we'd win a shooting war with the Ruskies with F35's if they wanted our resources? Frankly, I'll be voting for any government that sees the stupidity in this line of thinking. We do need a world class coast guard. We need enough air power to fulfill our NATO commitment. Do we need F35's? Nope. I'm sure there are viable alternatives? I don't think we could afford enough F35's to really make a difference. We're not an aggressor nation. BTW, 20% of the American military budget could feed every person on the planet. Do we really want to play that game? Imagine.
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trampbike
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Re: The F-35 is not dead

Post by trampbike »

all_ramped_up wrote: 180 rounds of ammunition for its cannon? that it can't even fire until 2019...
How many 25mm rounds would you say are necessary to disable an enemy aircraft?
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Re: The F-35 is not dead

Post by 2R »

The irony hit me like a brick in the face, this morning.
Those MIG 31 that have been escorting the Bears around north America look a lot like :
.......
Drum Roll ...........
AVRO ARROWS :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

I wonder what the cryptic message Putin is sending by using the old (recently upgraded) machines ? They have only been using their new equipment on training exercise's with some of their new allies. The same guys who are building new ice breakers and a new deep blue fleet.


Pay attention or you will miss the magic :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
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Re: The F-35 is not dead

Post by Rockie »

trampbike wrote:
all_ramped_up wrote: 180 rounds of ammunition for its cannon? that it can't even fire until 2019...
How many 25mm rounds would you say are necessary to disable an enemy aircraft?
The round has to hit the target to do any damage at all, and given the JSF's reported less than stellar maneuverability there are likely to be plenty of misses. More rounds gives you more chances against a target that doesn't feel like getting shot.
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Re: The F-35 is not dead

Post by AuxBatOn »

Rockie wrote:
trampbike wrote:
all_ramped_up wrote: 180 rounds of ammunition for its cannon? that it can't even fire until 2019...
How many 25mm rounds would you say are necessary to disable an enemy aircraft?
The round has to hit the target to do any damage at all, and given the JSF's reported less than stellar maneuverability there are likely to be plenty of misses. More rounds gives you more chances against a target that doesn't feel like getting shot.
When is the last time a Canadian (or any country's) fighter pilot had to use superior manoeuvrability in order to use the gun to kill his enemy? When is the last time a Canadian fighter pilot had to use the gun in anger?

I am not saying to get rid of the gun, but with today's weapons, the gun is merely a contingency weapon rather than a prime weapon...
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Re: The F-35 is not dead

Post by Rockie »

Agreed. But if you need the gun you're going to need bullets, otherwise why bother carrying it?

Also I'm sure you've been in a mix up with lots of airplanes where guns are the best choice against an opportune target. Standing off with missiles isn't always an option.
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Re: The F-35 is not dead

Post by 2R »

Too close for missiles, switching to guns ,too close for guns switching to handbags, Sorry manbags .
With no guns the pilots could switch to handbags/manbags right away :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
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Re: The F-35 is not dead

Post by all_ramped_up »

Rockie wrote:
trampbike wrote:
all_ramped_up wrote: 180 rounds of ammunition for its cannon? that it can't even fire until 2019...
How many 25mm rounds would you say are necessary to disable an enemy aircraft?
When is the last time a Canadian (or any country's) fighter pilot had to use superior manoeuvrability in order to use the gun to kill his enemy? When is the last time a Canadian fighter pilot had to use the gun in anger?

I am not saying to get rid of the gun, but with today's weapons, the gun is merely a contingency weapon rather than a prime weapon...
Last time I saw the gun fired from a CF-18 was used against a maritime target actually. So you're not always blasting at other aircraft.

As mentioned, if you're going to have a weapon it should have enough ammunition to make it worth the weight of carrying it. With a rate of fire of 3,300rpm you have maybe one tactical burst with 180 rounds. You'd better hope that it's a kill shot! Now I'm sure our Jet Jocks are crack shots but sometimes poop happens and you need a second burst. But that's a moot point now as they can't even pull the trigger on it until 2019!

What else has this piece of garbage got up its sleeve?
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Illya Kuryakin
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Re: The F-35 is not dead

Post by Illya Kuryakin »

180 rounds? LOL,I chew through 180 rounds every time I take my 9mm to the range. More like 300, actually.
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Re: The F-35 is not dead

Post by AuxBatOn »

We won't have the JSF before 2019, so the "delay" doesn't really matter.

I know about the Gulf incident.

180 rounds gives me 3-4 bursts. I am able to do 6 passes with 250 rounds at the range. Given its contingency nature, I'd say it is suficient in the A/A role. In the A/G role, you can put a gun pod.
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Re: The F-35 is not dead

Post by Rockie »

Come on, strafe targets aren't trying to not get shot.

And I know all about the gulf incident too, so we'll keep that one to ourselves...
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Re: The F-35 is not dead

Post by AuxBatOn »

Rockie wrote:Come on, strafe targets aren't trying to not get shot.

And I know all about the gulf incident too, so we'll keep that one to ourselves...
If you are in a position to employ the gun against an aircraft, you are not trying not to get shot. You are trying to kill your opponent.
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Re: The F-35 is not dead

Post by Rockie »

AuxBatOn wrote:
Rockie wrote:Come on, strafe targets aren't trying to not get shot.

And I know all about the gulf incident too, so we'll keep that one to ourselves...
If you are in a position to employ the gun against an aircraft, you are not trying not to get shot. You are trying to kill your opponent.
Not quite correct, you are ALWAYS trying not to get shot...but I was talking about the target in front of you. A strafe target on the range isn't the same as a targeted airplane in front of you with a pilot possessing a survival instinct. He (or she) will be a little harder to shoot with a gun than a static flag on a range don't you think?
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Re: The F-35 is not dead

Post by AuxBatOn »

Rockie wrote:
AuxBatOn wrote:
Rockie wrote:Come on, strafe targets aren't trying to not get shot.

And I know all about the gulf incident too, so we'll keep that one to ourselves...
If you are in a position to employ the gun against an aircraft, you are not trying not to get shot. You are trying to kill your opponent.
Not quite correct, you are ALWAYS trying not to get shot...but I was talking about the target in front of you. A strafe target on the range isn't the same as a targeted airplane in front of you with a pilot possessing a survival instinct. He (or she) will be a little harder to shoot with a gun than a static flag on a range don't you think?

Sure, but how many burst I get against the target is irrelevant to how much the guy or gal in front tries to survive, which was the point you were making and I was refuting.
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Re: The F-35 is not dead

Post by 2R »

http://in.rbth.com/economics/2014/02/21 ... 33233.html

If the Russian propaganda is correct, you will not need a gun against the Mig 31s

Pay attention or you will miss the magic.
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Re: The F-35 is not dead

Post by Rockie »

AuxBatOn wrote:Sure, but how many burst I get against the target is irrelevant to how much the guy or gal in front tries to survive, which was the point you were making and I was refuting.
Irrelevant? Keep missing your target because he's working hard to not get shot and the rounds counter becomes extremely relevant. You could maybe give him the finger when you ran out and ruin his self esteem....
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Re: The F-35 is not dead

Post by AuxBatOn »

Rockie wrote:
AuxBatOn wrote:Sure, but how many burst I get against the target is irrelevant to how much the guy or gal in front tries to survive, which was the point you were making and I was refuting.
Irrelevant? Keep missing your target because he's working hard to not get shot and the rounds counter becomes extremely relevant. You could maybe give him the finger when you ran out and ruin his self esteem....
Or you could alternatively use your 2 heaters and 2 AMRAAMs.

If you are at a point where you NEED to use your gun against an aircraft in a self-escort strike fighter, many things went sideways along the way:

1- Your OCA did not do its job
2- Your BVR missiles did not work
3- You did not execute your low-risk tactics to avoid wrapping it up
4- Your AIM-9s did not work

That's a lot of ifs, considering there is a gun in the aircraft, just not as many bullets as you'd like. Oh, and the fact that we haven't used the A/A gun since Korea.
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Re: The F-35 is not dead

Post by Rockie »

Did you ever operate in the NATO central region during the 80's? Even during peacetime there were a LOT of airplanes out there by chance on every single trip only pretending to try and kill you. Completely different than Bagotville, Cold Lake or the scrubbed airspace you're used to now.

Count on needing your 2 AAMRAM's, 2 AIM 9's, ineffective OCA and far more hostile jets than you can easily avoid on your way to and from a target in enemy airspace.
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Re: The F-35 is not dead

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By David Archibald


March 21, 2015

The Disappointment That Is the F-35



First of all, be aware that strange things happen in the U.S. military-industrial complex that President Eisenhower warned us about. Take the example of the M1 Abrams tank. The U.S. Army has an inventory of 6,300-odd of these tanks, including 4,000 in storage in desert. It doesn’t need any more, but Congress keeps voting to keep the production line going, churning out unwanted tanks. Ironically, that means that funds aren’t available to upgrade the gas turbine engines of its existing tanks to make them more efficient. The M1 Abrams gets half the fuel mileage of the German Leopard II tank of similar capability.



But this is a tale about the F-35. It has been said that the story of the F-35 begins in 1942 in the Battle of Guadalcanal. The U.S. Marines, doing the ground fighting, were upset that the other services weren’t providing enough air cover. The pounding they got from the lack of air cover is part of their institutional memory. So when the U.S. Defense Department decided to build a 5th-generation stealth fighter to replace the F-16, the U.S. Marines insisted that this include a short take-off and vertical landing (STOVL) variant. The trade-offs necessary to effect this fatally compromised the whole project so that none of the variants do their job adequately. Specifically, the requirement to have a lift fan 1.27 meters in diameter on the centerline of the aircraft behind the pilot resulted in two bomb bays instead of just one on the centerline. This made the aircraft wider, draggy, slower, and less maneuverable. In short, the F-35 can’t turn, can’t climb, can’t run.

In fact, it isn’t a fighter aircraft in the first place. It is really a light bomber, designed as such from the get-go. The recently retired head of Air Combat Command for the U.S. Air Force, General Mike Hostage, has been quoted as saying, “The F-35 is geared to go out and take down the surface targets.” The original requirement that evolved into the F-35 was "Battlefield Interdiction and Close Air Support" with the intent being to deal with lightly defended ground targets after the F-22 knocked out the really dangerous air defenses. That assumes that a lot of F-22s are available. They aren’t because of one of President Bush’s poorer staff choices, that of Robert Gates as defense secretary. Retained by President Obama in that role, the beginning of the end was signaled when he noted that the F-22 wasn’t being used in Afghanistan.

In the air combat role, Hostage says that it takes eight F-35s to do what two F-22s can handle. He has said further of the F-35: “Because it can’t turn and run away, it’s got to have support from other F-35s. So I’m going to need eight F-35s to go after a target that I might only need two Raptors to go after. But the F-35s can be equally or more effective against that site than the Raptor can because of the synergistic effects of the platform.” He has also been quoted as saying that an F-35 pilot who engages in a dogfight has made a mistake. Further from General Hostage, “If I do not keep that F-22 fleet viable, the F-35 fleet frankly will be irrelevant. The F-35 is not built as an air superiority platform. It needs the F-22. Because I got such a pitifully tiny fleet [of F-22s], I’ve got to ensure I will have every single one of those F-22s as capable as it possibly can be.”

The F-35’s primary role in ground attack is confirmed by its weapons bays, which each have room for a 2,000-lb. bomb and one air-to-air missile. It could carry more bombs and missiles on its wings at the cost of stealth. At the same time, stealth against radar isn’t the be-all-end-all of aerial combat. The F-35 can be spotted by low-frequency radar a hundred miles away, as all aircraft can be. Infrared detection can also work at a considerable distance under the right atmospheric conditions. For example, all Sukhois after and including the Su-27SK have Infra Red Scan and Track (IRST) that keeps getting better. The latest IRST – the OLS-35 – will detect, track, and engage the F-35 at about 45 miles.

The F-35 has one system, still in development, that has considerable potential if it ends up working as promised. This is the Distributed Aperture System, which allows the pilot to see all around the aircraft in every direction. The view is displayed inside the pilot’s visor using data from cameras around the aircraft. Each helmet is made to fit the head of the pilot who will use it. The system allows the pilot to see through the floor of the aircraft and see the ground underneath. It also analyzes all the other information coming in from the radar and the infrared cameras around the aircraft and presents it on the field of view, along with similar data from other F-35s our pilot is flying with. The system determines what each threat is, ranks them all in priority, and recommends what countermeasure should be used. The F-35 can fire air-to-air missiles against aircraft flying behind it that the pilot cannot see.

Flying as a pack of at least eight, F-35s in theory should be able provide mutual fire support and do pretty well. The situational awareness of the F-35 could be good enough that the aircraft could be a sort of mini-AWACS directing 4th-generation fighters such as the F-18 onto targets. That said, other aircraft, already in service, do the same thing. All the Sukhois and the Swedish Gripen have intra-flight data-sharing and are truly mini-AWACS. Gripens are optimized for “cloud shooting,” so one aircraft targets and another passive aircraft shoots.

The F-35 is a complicated aircraft, though, and may prove to have been just too ambitious. Its software includes over 30 million lines of code, which is six times more than that of the F-18E/F Super Hornet. There are plenty of bugs in the software and the aircraft’s other systems that will take years to work through.

One of the more important bugs is the helmet vision system, which isn’t as seamless as it needs to be and produces too many false alarms. And if the helmet isn’t fixed, it definitely won’t be a fighter, because the aircraft’s bulkhead behind the pilot continues at the same height as the canopy. The pilot won’t be able to see what’s behind him if the helmet is not working. He also won’t be able to see below him, because the aircraft is too wide. Most fighters have the pilot sitting up where he can see as much as possible. The F-35 pilot’s head is down in the fuselage, as in a bomber.

With respect to close air support of ground troops, the A-10 aircraft, dedicated to that role, carries 1,350 rounds of 30-mm ammunition. By comparison, due to the compromises necessary to get the STOVL version to fly, the gun of the F-35 STOVL version is carried externally in a pod. It will hold 180 rounds of 25-mm ammunition weighing about 200 pounds. The gun could burn through its ammunition load in three seconds. The STOVL F-35 is an expensive way of carrying 200 lb of ordnance into battle. It carries two 1,000-lb bombs instead of the 2,000 lb bombs on the air force version, once again due to weight limitations. There are likely to be far more cost-efficient ways of providing fire support to the troops. While we are the subject of the F-35’s gun, the software for the aircraft to be able to fire it won’t be ready until 2017, and possibly 2019 by some reports. The software to enable the STOVL F-35 to drop the Small Diameter Bomb II (short enough to fit the bomb bay) won’t be uploaded until 2022.

A good summary of the current status of the F-35’s bugs and shortcomings is provided by the U.S.-based Project on Government Oversight (POGO), from a Department of Defense report. The U.S. defense procurement system requires that weapons development programs remain on schedule or they become in danger of being scrapped. The F-35 is well behind schedule, but production has begun before testing has been completed. POGO’s analysis shows that Lockheed Martin, the aircraft’s developer, has been cooking the test results to meet project milestones. The effect of that will be an expensive retrofitting of completed aircraft estimated at U.S. $60 billion.

There is an incident in the POGO report that suggests that the F-35 might be fatally flawed because of the compromises made to get the thing to fly in the first place. In June 2014, there was an engine fire in an F-35 that was taxiing that resulted in the aircraft being lost. The aircraft that blew up was damaged, three weeks earlier, during two seconds of flight when the test pilot, operating well within the safety envelope of the aircraft’s abilities in a ridge roll maneuver, put G forces, yaw, and roll stresses on the aircraft all at the same time. The F-35’s engine is said to have the problem of being too flexible. That may be because the airframe is too light, in which case this is a problem that is baked in the cake. There are severe flight restrictions as a result. If you put a fighter into a snap-turn to (say) avoid a missile, the gyroscopic forces within the large diameter engine are huge. Both the engine and the aircraft have weight problems, and beefing up either or both compromises the already overweight aircraft. The practical outcome of that will be that the F-35 will be restricted in its maneuverability by its software.

Another restriction is a limit of Mach 0.8-0.9 at low altitude because the F-35 cannot dissipate its heat. Its competitors are limited to about Mach 1.2, so if there is a low-altitude engagement, “can’t run” becomes a serious threat to its survival. In fact, in battle simulations of the F-35 against the Su-35, 2.4 F-35s are lost for each Su-35 shot down. Pitting the Gripen against the Su-35 results in 1.6 of the Sukhois shot down for each Gripen lost. The loss exchange ratio of the Gripen against the F-35 is said to be breathtaking – in the Gripen’s favor.




There is potentially a positive outcome out of all this. The coming war in the Pacific will have a need for an aircraft that can fly long distances straight and level without stressing the airframe – to fulfill the maritime strike role in delivering anti-ship cruise missiles. The best of these is the Long Range Anti-Ship Missile (LRASM) with a range of 575 miles. The F-35 would have a useful role while staying out of harm’s way.

There is one view in the defense community that the F-35 program will die of embarrassment before the production of about 500 aircraft. This will leave a gaping hole in many countries’ procurement schedules, and there will be a mad scramble for supply from the European fighter makers. The F-16 and the F-18 are still being produced, though the latter’s production line closes in 2017. The tooling to make the F-22 has been kept, and the production line could be restarted. That is looking like the best option.

David Archibald, a visiting fellow at the Institute of World Politics in Washington, D.C., is the author of Twilight of Abundance (Regnery, 2014).


Read more: http://www.americanthinker.com/articles ... z3V4VsgAvB
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Re: The F-35 is not dead

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

At staff college I heard a great line from a very senior American officer.

Military novices talk about equipment and tactics, Military professional talk about Training, Sustainment, Logistics, Basing etc.

The F 15 kill ratio in air to air combat is 115 to 0. Yes it had a qualitative advantage over most of its opponents but that alone doesn't account for such a lop sided result. The real advantage it had was the fact that it was the tip of a spear that included the aircraft maintenance that kept it fully operational, the pilots high quality training that was honed in regular realistic exercises, the Command and Control network that they worked under was robust and extremely competent etc etc

It doesn't really matter if the F 35 is a not a terribly good airplane as the breadth and depth of the supporting Military structures will still make it unbeatable. That breath and depth is the results of decades of continuous improvement and so there are no peer competitors that will be able to match it any time soon.

The sad part is we are going to waste a lot of money on an aircraft that we don't need as the existing fully developed air frames provide all the tactical air effects we will ever need. We just need to build more of them when we wear out the existing airframes.
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