CAP Rant

[Panama Jack]

Do any others out there who have been using Jepp Charts for years and seen the enhancements figure that the good people who design and maintain the Canada Air Pilot deliberately try to maintain a tricky "ha ha. . .gotcha!" format (best case scenario) or are too thick to implement logical, human-factors friendly improvements (worst case scenario)? Arrrrrrrrghhhhh!

[Changes in Latitudes]

I thought I had repressed the memories of the CAP pain until you brought it up. That's a lot of therapy down the drain.

For those using Lucifer's plates:
Write it up as a safety concern, see if your SMS is worth the paper its written on.

[loopy]

Lucifer's plates. I like that!

I have always prefered Jepps, however, for a little bit of clarification, to what are you referring?

[Panama Jack]

A couple of, quick examples:

For Aerodrome Charts (departure procedures)

"SPEC VIS". WTF? Can't you just print the visibilities on the plate?
"NOT ASSESSED"- Jeppesen writes "Pilots are responsible for determining minimum climb gradient and/or routing for obstacle and terrain avoidance. Pilots may depart IFR by using a take-off visibility that will allow avoidance of obstacles on departure, in no case less than 1/2 miles" for these Cupcake Corner Aerodromes.

I am sure I could find more examples, but it is bed time here and my wife is already miffed that I am giving more attention to my iPad than her. Over to you Changes in Latitudes.

[GTAFI]

A couple of, quick examples:

For Aerodrome Charts (departure procedures)

"SPEC VIS". WTF? Can't you just print the visibilities on the plate?
"NOT ASSESSED"- Jeppesen writes "Pilots are responsible for determining minimum climb gradient and/or routing for obstacle and terrain avoidance. Pilots may depart IFR by using a take-off visibility that will allow avoidance of obstacles on departure, in no case less than 1/2 miles" for these Cupcake Corner Aerodromes.

I am sure I could find more examples, but it is bed time here and my wife is already miffed that I am giving more attention to my iPad than her. Over to you Changes in Latitudes.

Isn't all this basic IFR stuff? You should know the A/C Categories and SPEC VIS for each (1, 1.5, 2 & 2)

[Nark]

For folks like us who don't remember Canadian regs since we operate under foreign ones, which are different than TC's, PJ has a very valid point.

Jepps are by far a superior product.

[Beefitarian]

Maybe being able to operate using the CAP is one of the reasons Canadian CPLs were better than the other guys in the past.

[Panama Jack]

Nark hit the nail on the head. The presentation of important information on CAP charts are so awkward and unique, that it can be easily argued that they are a hazard for foreign instrument pilots in Canada.

Canadian IFR regs have some very special nuances (speaking from an international aviation perspective) which can easily trap the unsuspecting pilot and the publications don't help much.

As an aside, I recently saw some Chinese local approach plates- information is all in Chinese. Thank God for Jepps!

[Changes in Latitudes]

Isn't all this basic IFR stuff? You should know the A/C Categories and SPEC VIS for each (1, 1.5, 2 & 2)

Mmmyeap, it is, so here's a cookie for you because you know everything and have a leather jacket to prove it.

But, say that you didn't, and its a dark and stormy night, and you had a concern about a certain procedure. Let's say to your left is a stack of CAPS, to your right is me, First Officer Stoopid , holding the Jepp version of the same procedure. Who's going to clean your ego up off the floor when F-O Stoopid clarifies the situation before you can even get the metal spindley things to line up to open the damn page on the CAP?

We choose things for safety and efficiency in this business; not to ego-pump your IFR knowledge. The jepp charts are the choice and I sure appreciate them when flying overseas.

[Cat Driver]

Flying IFR is far more than being a whiz kid on how to interpret the cluster @#$! that Canada has developed in their charts and never ending rules.

Jepps are the charts of choice because you can actually figure out the format.

Anyhow it looks like you might be a relatively new comer to aviation GTAFI, maybe even a graduate of one of the aviation colleges.

Here is a situation we ran into one day in southern Brazil....I forget what city it was but we had overnight ed there and had planned on going to Sao Paulo that morning...but...our employer called us on the sat phone and said we were to pick him up at the Embrarier factory in Sao Jose Dos Campos Brazil.

We could not find our IFR charts for that airport so I went to a local charter company and asked them if they could copy the charts for me, no problem..

...until I looked at them, they were in Portuguese.

So what would you have done GTAFI?

The weather forecast for that destination was borderline IMC.

[Beefitarian]

How come there's a dog pile on the guy that can use the silly things?

Maybe the Portugese ones would be a breeze after playing "What's this say?" with the CAP.

[GTAFI]

Isn't all this basic IFR stuff? You should know the A/C Categories and SPEC VIS for each (1, 1.5, 2 & 2)

Mmmyeap, it is, so here's a cookie for you because you know everything and have a leather jacket to prove it.

But, say that you didn't, and its a dark and stormy night, and you had a concern about a certain procedure. Let's say to your left is a stack of CAPS, to your right is me, First Officer Stoopid , holding the Jepp version of the same procedure. Who's going to clean your ego up off the floor when F-O Stoopid clarifies the situation before you can even get the metal spindley things to line up to open the damn page on the CAP?

We choose things for safety and efficiency in this business; not to ego-pump your IFR knowledge. The jepp charts are the choice and I sure appreciate them when flying overseas.

Great attitude bud! I don't know eveything and neither does anyone here.

Flying IFR is far more than being a whiz kid on how to interpret the cluster @#$! that Canada has developed in their charts and never ending rules.

Jepps are the charts of choice because you can actually figure out the format.

Anyhow it looks like you might be a relatively new comer to aviation GTAFI, maybe even a graduate of one of the aviation colleges.

Here is a situation we ran into one day in southern Brazil....I forget what city it was but we had overnight ed there and had planned on going to Sao Paulo that morning...but...our employer called us on the sat phone and said we were to pick him up at the Embrarier factory in Sao Jose Dos Campos Brazil.

We could not find our IFR charts for that airport so I went to a local charter company and asked them if they could copy the charts for me, no problem..

...until I looked at them, they were in Portuguese.

So what would you have done GTAFI?

The weather forecast for that destination was borderline IMC.

Well, I am not new (or too new to aviation) and I did not go to one of those colleges either Cat.

As for the Brazil issue, I probably would have been more preapred than that, in either case knowing spanish helps with the portuguese

[pelmet]

Here is a situation we ran into one day in southern Brazil....I forget what city it was but we had overnight ed there and had planned on going to Sao Paulo that morning...but...our employer called us on the sat phone and said we were to pick him up at the Embrarier factory in Sao Jose Dos Campos Brazil.

We could not find our IFR charts for that airport so I went to a local charter company and asked them if they could copy the charts for me, no problem..

...until I looked at them, they were in Portuguese.

So what would you have done GTAFI?

The weather forecast for that destination was borderline IMC.

Simple...Google translate

[Cat Driver]

As for the Brazil issue, I probably would have been more preapred than that,

Of course it is nice to be prepared but when you are flying from country to country year after year eventually something goes wrong with the charts and all the rest of the stuff you might need.


In that case I found an English speaking pilot who translated enough words on the chart so we could use it.

As it turned out the weather was not that bad and we broke out way above the altitude we had set to miss the approach.

As an aside I ended up detained by the Brazilian Federal Police a few months later in Brasilia because they found my airspace use paper work had expired a few weeks earlier.....lucky for us we were flying for someone with real good leverage with the feds and we were released after about half a day.

I'm finished with all that B.S. now and wish I had retired years before I did.

If I had to fly again I would go back to FAA part 91....so much more sane than all the B.S. Canada generates.

[PAJ]

There currently is a CAP/RCAP Improvement Project underway at NAV CANADA. I also heard (unofficial rumour mill) that the next cycle will see some of the changes. One can be hopeful.

PAJ

[x-wind]

Jack, I can appreicate your level of patience using charts you're not familiar with. I get pretty grumpy too when there is a difference that I don't understand when I'm abroad, I also share the feeling (when in the heat of the moment or shortly there after) that the folks making the charts are purposely trying to make it difficult or that there is no quality control. Although after the situation settles I realize it is usually my haste somewhere along the line that caused the stress.

The CAP is to be used with its suppliment the CAP GEN. The CAP GEN will answer all your questions when you don't understand something. It's best to review it before reaching 30 knots.

[photofly]

Canadian IFR regs have some very special nuances (speaking from an international aviation perspective) which can easily trap the unsuspecting pilot and the publications don't help much.

Please elaborate!

[Nark]

Photofly:

Noise abatement departure procedures 1 and 2

Approach Ban (we are allowed to follow FAA rules in that respect)

Canadians also talk funny on the radio. Most notably how we depart IFR, "On Departure fly runway heading contact switch to 123.45" oooh kay...
YYZ always does this, but they clear us for ILS in a none standard way. More than once we look at each and wonder aloud if that was a clearance.

Oh, and Roger, roger, Roger, roger...

[tired of the ground]

Canadian IFR regs have some very special nuances (speaking from an international aviation perspective) which can easily trap the unsuspecting pilot and the publications don't help much.

Please elaborate!

Right off the top of my head are the arrivals into the Toronto. It is the only place in the world I've ever been to that you aren't allowed to descend to the altitude you're cleared to without some sort of heads up. They will clear you for the STAR and then somewhere down the line they will clear you to, say 4000. You can't just go ahead and descend to 4000, you have to descend via the altitude restrictions in the STAR. Everywhere else in the world will clear you to "descend to 4000 via the STAR".

Nark also posted the very valid point of the disaster known as the approach ban. The wonderfully Canadian rule which will allow a back course circling approach but disallow an ILS all at the same one runway airport.

[ahramin]

I can't think of anywhere in the world where you can disregard a SID or STAR altitude if you are cleared to a lower or higher one. Certainly not unique to Toronto as the rules apply anywhere in Canada. We've had this discussion here already.

As for noise 1 or 2, it's also the same anywhere in the world. I don't see how the CAPs have anything to do with them, they are ICAO.

Approach Ban? Yes the first many editions of the CAP that contained the new rules was backwards but they've got it fixed up now and besides, that's a TC thing. We're still the laughing stock of the world for the way that was rolled out.

Now RVOP/LVOP values being in the CFS and not in the CAP is beyond stupid. A value that could only matter to IFR pilots that can only be found in the VFR publication.

The biggest problem with the CAP is the lack of proofreading before publication but hey, we've got to save money somewhere. Have to pay for the last and the next Air Canada bankruptcies somehow right?

Yes it would be nice if SPEC VIS listed the vis, but I don't see how this is any more cryptic that all the different landing minima in depending on aircraft category in any plates including Jepps.

I think the problem is more with the cryptic rules of procedure design rather than the CAPs. NO PT comes to mind.

The only big difference I see between Jepps and CAPs is the nice block at the top with all the critical information in a easy to brief format. Doesn't help when your SOP requires an epic and deranged approach briefing such as mine does but it is nice for checking everything after a runway change.