College of Pilots.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Lets split the following into to parts.

No one has offered a solution for the pathetic state of democracy in this country.

Canada is more a socialistic state run by a dictator than a democracy.

A voters college won't fix that.

No it will not change the way Canada is governed, but it can give working pilots leverage to change the industry for the better.

If fear of government is what is stopping a lot of you from trying to change the system maybe you need me to come out of retirement and be your shield from fear, because I have nothing to lose career wise, and for sure a bit of research will convince you I don't fear Ottawa's ruling class.


How could it possibly be worse than the way your government is now running it?

[xlwing]

With a government which forces pilots back to work when they're on strike? Something's not right here... Where's the rights of a pilot. Seems quite obvious that pilots hold a VALUABLE key to all of Canada and every other nation on the planet - economical. So valuable that countries can't afford having air carriers or their crews down on strike. Does ALL defence of a pilot then rest with unions? There doesn't seem to be a very good job as of lately. Could this 'college' potentially splay this imbalance of power? It doesn't seem to be on their agenda. There's definately issues present, and there needs to be an action of defence. It's frankly appauling.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

With a government which forces pilots back to work when they're on strike? Something's not right here...

Canada is more a socialistic state run by a dictator than a democracy.

[Prairie Chicken]

I recently read Into the Abyss, and what struck me most was how little the culture in aviation has changed since that 1984 accident.

We have to give the College a chance to change this culture. I don't know if it will work, but I really don't think it can be worse than the status quo.

[2.5milefinal]

I say pay the 60 (or so) bucks and lets see where this goes.

[Instructor_Mike]

URC
Cost- well, if this is successful to the point of achieving the legislation where all 24,000 fixed and rotary CPLs and ATPLs must be members

Membership should not be mandatory. I agree with the ideals of the college, but I won't support it if they are trying to be like another union who go from collective bargaining and supporting the workers to padding their own pockets and more bureaucracy. If I don't like the way the collage is operating, I should have the choice not to support it.

To me the college is shaping up to be similar (I'm not saying the same) as a union. Overall I don't mind unions, but they get out of control just as much as a corporation. The case with Caterpillar in London comes to mind where a union could have accepted a pay cut or lose their jobs completely and they chose the latter.

Edit: I thought it was only a small pay cut, not 50%. My mistake.

[mbav8r]

Instructor_Mike
To me the college is shaping up to be similar (I'm not saying the same) as a union. Overall I don't mind unions, but they get out of control just as much as a corporation. The case with Caterpillar in London comes to mind where a union could have accepted a pay cut or lose their jobs completely and they chose the latter.

Mike, with all due respect, that's a very simplistic way to look at what transpired with Caterpillar. First, it wasn't just simply a pay cut, it was a 50% pay cut, would you choose to work for half of what you make or stand your ground for whats right? Second, I don't believe anyone, union or worker actually believed they would just close the doors. Third, the government allowed a US company to come in buy our(Canadian) technology and take it with them without any ramifications, it seems this was the plan all along.
I can guarantee one thing, if the company I work for came to me and said, work for half of what you make now, or we're closing the doors, I'll tell them to close the doors. That's not union speak, that's just doing whats right.

[Instructor_Mike]

Mike, with all due respect, that's a very simplistic way to look at what transpired with Caterpillar. First, it wasn't just simply a pay cut, it was a 50% pay cut, would you choose to work for half of what you make or stand your ground for whats right? Second, I don't believe anyone, union or worker actually believed they would just close the doors. Third, the government allowed a US company to come in buy our(Canadian) technology and take it with them without any ramifications, it seems this was the plan all along.
I can guarantee one thing, if the company I work for came to me and said, work for half of what you make now, or we're closing the doors, I'll tell them to close the doors. That's not union speak, that's just doing whats right.

Ok, I apologize, I didn't realize it was that much of a pay cut, but the US factory was already ready to go from what I understand. Why did anyone believe they wouldn't just close the doors? I guess it depends on your pay grade, level of training and hire-ability for another job somewhere else. I'd rather live off 14K again this year as opposed having no job at all.

[xsbank]

Red herring. Don't let paranoia and a closed mind prevent you from moving forward. Everyone can cite an example where a union caused difficulties but there are countless examples where workers banding together have resulted in improvements in working conditions. Don't let ignorance nor prejudice nor fear guide your decision. Canadians are remarkably pliant and indifferent to their circumstances whenever some sort of authority is involved, but we call it individualism and pretend that's a superior stance than just saying no. With this org. you can have your cake (macho self-interest) yet eat it too (a strong group lobbying on your behalf). This is win/win, especially for those of you who fear authority, are working your way up the ladder and have found out how ****ed up and insecure this industry really is.
Have one less beer this weekend, give the money to the college and see what can happen to our industry. You might get a groovy new set of college wings to wear with your leather jacket and watch.

[xlwing]

Would the college actually lobby though? I can't see how simply upholding a standard of professionalism and ethics, which is fairly executed in the airlines already and which this college isn't even fully targeting, can improve conditions. They even state they won't get involved in labour disputes, affairs, pay rates, etc... Just because McDonald's employees start wearing ties and act highly professional, doesn't mean they suddenly elevate in the eyes of the public and government and get treated any better (and no, I'm not directly comparing Mcdonald's to aviation... ). I can say there are many pilots out there that act outright unprofessional and that at times I am embarassed to even be associated with, (you'd think it would be common sense to be professional - I know I don't have to pay someone to tell me how to be). This, however, if 'fixed', won't change anything, and if so, very little. There's no imminently concerning negative stigma against pilots that I know which ultimately is affecting work conditions. Anyhow, it just seems as though the concern of the college is over a pilot's public image rather than a primary focus on their abilities and worth, and so, not really a direct benefit, but rather tertiary, in that which we would like - working conditions.

[loopy]

With a government which forces pilots back to work when they're on strike? Something's not right here... Where's the rights of a pilot. Seems quite obvious that pilots hold a VALUABLE key to all of Canada and every other nation on the planet - economical. So valuable that countries can't afford having air carriers or their crews down on strike. Does ALL defence of a pilot then rest with unions? There doesn't seem to be a very good job as of lately. Could this 'college' potentially splay this imbalance of power? It doesn't seem to be on their agenda. There's definately issues present, and there needs to be an action of defence. It's frankly appauling.

Xlwing, I agree with what you are saying. I think the college's goal of being the body that grants licenses is not what we need. An association represents all pro pilots, regardless company affiliation, or specific specialty of operation, as a lobbying voice that expresses what we think needs to be changed or improved. It would not cost as much to run and administer as a college, and the membership fees would go to lobbying for protection of our rights or changes in regulations that affect us, who are out there flying. That association could lobby for the gov't to respect the right to strike, or have realistic duty times, are ban training bonds, or suggest recommended minimum rates of pay for types of work. I don't get that this is the colleges main thrust.

They do want to take on some of what an association often does by promoting the profession.

Recognition by a college (licensure) is mandatory. Participation in the college would be voluntary.

[loopy]

If you have the time, research a profession like medicine, nursing or psychology, for example. Pick a jurisdiction, Canada, or province. Look up the website of the governing or licensing body (college) and read what their purpose is. Then do the same for the association in the same jurisdiction. You will get a feel for the difference. Then ask yourself what we as a professional group requires.

I respect those promoting the college for getting it this far. Dealing with pilots is like trying to herd cats. I may still join. I am convinced that we do need a national voice. I just think there is more discussion required on what the focus should be and what form it should take.

[TomM]

To whomever it was that asked about membership cards, it is something we are looking at, but isn't high on the priority list right now. Price the cost for me and offer to lick the letters and stamps, then maybe you've got me.

When you join, you do get a receipt that verifies your membership.

The college as currently envisioned will NEVER get directly involved with wawcon issues. That's not what professional colleges/ associations do, as loopy has pointed out above. I know this creates a lot of heartburn for some of you. What I can say is that the college will ALWAYS support and promote professional conduct. So I ask you, do professional's work in unsafe conditions where they are treated disrespectfully, offer their services below what its worth or stab their colleagues in the back? I hope the answer is a resounding NO to all the above. This is where the college will provide guidance and remind us all to stand up for our basic dignity and say the big no to the above. This is where the code of conduct piece really resonates.

There are also varying degrees of sophistication of colleges or societies. I suspect what we are proposing would be closer to what engineers have than what doctors and lawyers have.

As far as creating a bureaucracy of pork-barreling politics, not on my watch and I would lead a charge to overthrow any subsequent boards in the future if this proves to be the case. Our political system is broken primarily due to apathy. Simple truth.

SO, I encourage you once again to look at our website. If you think that what is being proposed is about the stupidest thing you can think of for CPLs and ATPLs in Canada, then don't join. There's your vote and ultimately this will fail. If you think it has the ability to improve our lot or turn the current trend of where we're headed, then join.

Bottom line, make an informed decision, not based on the misinformation and fear primarily propagated here.

http://www.collegeofpilots.ca

[xsbank]

"Bottom line, make an informed decision, not based on the misinformation and fear primarily propagated here."

Ain't that the truth. A larger collection of complainers and whiners I've never heard, except for the letters section of The National Post.

[loopy]

Just human nature, I think. Welcome to public forums.

[cncpc]

SO, I encourage you once again to look at our website. If you think that what is being proposed is about the stupidest thing you can think of for CPLs and ATPLs in Canada, then don't join.
http://www.collegeofpilots.ca

There are many other valid reasons to not join, other than joining being the stupidest thing I can think of. It isn't, but I'm still not joining.

I'm interested to hear the definition of professional conduct. Would adultery be a no no? Is there a professional conduct manual somewhere that I've missed in the last 35 years? Booger mining during the checklist, visible to passengers in the waiting room at the gate? Who decides what professional conduct is?

Will it be something that now doesn't ban being a pilot, but will in the future?

[xlwing]

Maybe it would look something like this:

http://www.apega.ca/About/ACT/code.htm

[spaner]

Code of conduct is a nice way to introduce a poorly defined requirement, by which, one may be removed from the college. Bureaucratic BS.
Like the rest of it. The basic idea here, as with any "college", is if they set a standard by which the noose around our necks is tighter than that applied by the current governing agency...Government approval.
Now, not only do they have complete control, they have your money.

"College", friend of the government, regulate and control the members.
"Union", enemy of the government, regulate and control the employers.

Which would you like to put your support behind?
As soon as OATA puts their support behind it...scrap it.
Where we should be looking is here:

http://www.clrs.org/pdf/agreements/Iron ... 007_10.pdf

A perfect model for our industry, and "workers".
You would expect an ironworker to:
Drink beer,
Swear in the company of,
Look like he works for a living,
Pick up chicks in the bar,

Ho, and, they get paid more than you do, for working less hours.

[Gino Under]

Maybe we should focus as a group on trying to fix the profession rather than worry about the semantics of what name it bears. Pilots across the profession from PPL to ATPL need to decide what role this college will play in the years ahead. To do that responsibly takes a central unified organization and right now we really don't have one. Like all good Canadians we do most of our 'bitchin' over the neighbours fence, at Tim Hortons, on the flight deck, or AvCanada. It's all good, but...
nothing ever changes and with all due respect, we're not all members of a pilot union.

I know it's easier for most pilots to be negative, sceptical, apathetic or just plain critical of just about anything aviation and for good reason. But for me, I think it's about time something was done which is why I decided to join. Hopefully a wide variety of Canadian pilots will also decide to join and contribute to making the college appropriate, effective, and influential in changing the present stature of our profession and the industry in Canada. It will take time for its voice to be heard and certainly for it to have any influence but that's a given.

Too many players in Canadian aviation are ruining the piloting profession to the extent where very few are motivated or interested in taking it up and whether you realize it or not, that's a problem down the road especially for our nexgen.

In the final analysis, joining a College probably won't shake the foundation of our industry but it might just come up with a creative renovation. Joining an organization like this in its infancy might just give you a voice in how it's renovated.

Up to you.

Gino Under

[Chuck Ellsworth]

I am now a member of this the college........hell I always wanted to go to college.