Blue Angels and Thunderbirds season cancelled due to cuts!!!

[jet a1]

Wow!

http://www.cnn.com/2013/04/09/us/military-air-shows

[moocow]

Why are you surprised? For a team that does nothing for national defense, of course it's going to get chop during times like this. Now are they going to ground the planes or just convert them to combat operation squads.

[looproll]

old news

sequestration

[armchair]

Edited due to popular demand...

[whistlerboy02]

Armchair the Snowbirds do more than inspire pilots to join the military, they are the backbone of most airshows, airshows that sometimes raise funds for specific causes. Airshows that non flying, tax paying, voting citizens of our country attend and might walk away with a better understanding of the aviation industry. The Snowbirds retain good pilots and support crews in the system as many would have moved on out of the forces years sooner saving the costs to find and train their replacements. Finally if you saved 10 or 15 million dollars which becomes 5 or 10 million based on my comments above what would our fine politicians do with that hard earned money? move a power plant for a couple votes? Spend a billion on another G20 summit? ect ect. Point is yes there's a cost, but it's nothing in the bigger picture and we get good value for the money invested.

[fleet16b]

Finally they get it.., these air demo teams have as much place in today's air forces as paper magazines of yesteryear which went online. Now that the situation is clear, the Snowbirds got to go too.. in particular since 431 Sqn tripled in size in the past few years with way too many useless extra cast, and too many techs on the pretense that they need them to maintain those old CT-114 Tutors. The Snowbirds are no longer needed because there is a glut of CF applicants for too few jobs. The recruiting regiment no longer holds... Time to close shop... I don't care what Dan Dempsey and other Snowbirds defendant's have to say!

A statement that comes from pure ignorance

[Rockie]

How much is the military budget drained every year by flying/sailing/towing resources up north for Harper's annual photo op?

The Snowbirds are a much better investment because for millions of Canadians it's their only exposure to our military, and it's a pretty damn good one. I've seen the team perform countless times over the years and I never get tired of it. It's something we can be proud of when everything else the government does (federal, provincial and municipal) is an ever increasing source of shame and embarrassment.

[bmc]

Finally they get it.., these air demo teams have as much place in today's air forces as paper magazines of yesteryear which went online. Now that the situation is clear, the Snowbirds got to go too.. in particular since 431 Sqn tripled in size in the past few years with way too many useless extra cast, and too many techs on the pretense that they need them to maintain those old CT-114 Tutors. The Snowbirds are no longer needed because there is a glut of CF applicants for too few jobs. The recruiting regiment no longer holds... Time to close shop... I don't care what Dan Dempsey and other Snowbirds defendant's have to say!

I think we should stop wearing tight underwear.

[Moose47]

G'day

Armchair Private, you remind me of some disgruntled individual who failed to meet the requirments for pilot training.

Moocow. first off, the Blue Angels and Thunderbirds are inacvtive NOT chopped. Secondly, "Each pilot of the Blue Angels (or Thunderbirds) is a fully qualified combat pilot, and when their tour with the demonstration team is finished, will receive a regular active duty assignment with a combat unit. The aircraft of both teams can be made combat ready in two days."

Rockie, as for photo Harper and photo ops, name me one Prime Minister who did not use the military as a P.R. tool. At least Prime Minister Harper shows some respect for Canada's military. I can not say the same thing about Comrade Pierre Trudeau.

Cheers...Chris

[Old fella]

How much is the military budget drained every year by flying/sailing/towing resources up north for Harper's annual photo op?

The Snowbirds are a much better investment because for millions of Canadians it's their only exposure to our military, and it's a pretty damn good one. I've seen the team perform countless times over the years and I never get tired of it. It's something we can be proud of when everything else the government does (federal, provincial and municipal) is an ever increasing source of shame and embarrassment.

If I may! First of all, every government dept. is going to anti-up to the chopping block of resources - DND is no exception, nor should it be. The public aka taxpayer/voter demands it - again as they should. IF DND wants to continue with Snowbirds (they have been around quite a long time), fair enough but the $$$$ is gonna come from another area within DND and it is quite fair to expect that as well. There has been less than stellar performance on military acquisition as of late (F-35 and subs) and many are leery especially when tough decisions that affect closer to home (dare I don a socialist hat and mention hospitals/schools/roads/services etc., etc. - but that is real). The vast majority of the public has little in common with aerial demonstration teams, understands less and probably don't care all that much one way or the other............

[Beefitarian]

I don't understand why people choose to be angry about everything instead of being proud of our military.

Obviously the snowbirds are not absolutely needed but there is still training value, and they just might encourage some young people to want to work toward achieving something besides the next level on X-box. There were some years when they were the only ones flying enough hours to be truly current.

Sure I'd rather have a case of beer or an extra meal out once a year instead of paying $30 a in tax to run the military but I believe there's more value for the country in having a military.

[Old Dog Flying]

I was a Tower /Terminal controller at Moose Jaw from 1970-76 and saw the work that went into developing the best Display Team ever. The team started in the winter of 70-71 as a base display with no aerobatics allowed and no formation changes unless in straight and level flight.

Now nearly 42 years later, I still feel the pride of service when as a spectator, I hear the comments of admiration from the spectators around me. Occasionaly I hear verbal HS from some loud mouth but they are few and far between.

Per Ardua Ad Astra
Barney

[Rockie]

Rockie, as for photo Harper and photo ops, name me one Prime Minister who did not use the military as a P.R. tool.

Easy, all of them since I've been around. Most had no interest in the military whatsoever, and in Chretien's case to my knowledge he never once set foot in DND headquarters the whole time he was in office despite it being just down the street. The only photo op I remember from him was with him wearing an army helmet backwards surrounded by officers struggling to not laugh out loud.

Contrast that with Harper's annual trip up north for the shot of him on a ship with CF-18's and a submarine that they practically had to tow up there for the occasion all in the same frame, or a ship assault by JTF-2, our previously super secret anti-terrorist unit.

No, the money is much better spent on the Snowbirds so the people who pay for it get the benefit, not Harper and his government.

[iflyforpie]

And gosh.... as far as aerobatic teams go can you really say the Snowbirds use up a ton of resources? They don't have a support aircraft following them around like every other aerobatic team does. The Tutors burn a fraction of the fuel that the Hornets and Vipers do. And again, most of the crews are a fixed cost anyways.

What I have always been impressed with is how much the Canadian Armed Forces have been able to do with so little. Those 50 year old jets with less thrust than a leaf blower still leave me more impressed than all of the shock and awe the American teams have.

When facing economic hardships is when you need dreams and inspiration the most. What do these aerobatic teams cost the taxpayer compared other things that are every bit as unnecessary and serve no purpose? Maybe we should stop buying Senators second homes and paying for their vacations.

[Moose47]

G'day Rockie

You are right about Chretien. What little respect I had for the "little guy from Shawinigan" went down the toilet after him calling us "Boy Scouts".

Quote: "Conversely, and most importantly, he failed to fundamentally reassess defence requirements in response to changing international circumstances. He also offered public utterances on defence that were unfortunate or unworthy (e.g., references to peacekeepers as “Boy Scouts”, and the infamous year-end interviews which implied that supporters of increased defence spending were mere shills for the arms industry."

I do not begrudge the money spent on showing the flag in the arctic even if it is for alterior motives.

Cheers...Chris

[fleet16b]

G'day Rockie

You are right about Chretien. What little respect I had for the "little guy from Shawinigan" went down the toilet after him calling us "Boy Scouts".

Quote: "Conversely, and most importantly, he failed to fundamentally reassess defence requirements in response to changing international circumstances. He also offered public utterances on defence that were unfortunate or unworthy (e.g., references to peacekeepers as “Boy Scouts”, and the infamous year-end interviews which implied that supporters of increased defence spending were mere shills for the arms industry."

I do not begrudge the money spent on showing the flag in the arctic even if it is for alterior motives.

Cheers...Chris

Well said Chris... well said

[Shiny Side Up]

And gosh.... as far as aerobatic teams go can you really say the Snowbirds use up a ton of resources? They don't have a support aircraft following them around like every other aerobatic team does. The Tutors burn a fraction of the fuel that the Hornets and Vipers do. And again, most of the crews are a fixed cost anyways.

This brings up a valid point. I'd hate to see the Angels and Thunderbirds disappear, but its not like they couldn't be reduced a bit. Currently each would be a larger expenditure than any other nation's aerobatic display teams. No one else uses that number of front line aircraft for the job. Some use fewer front line aircraft, most use their standard trainers for the job. The angels have cut back before when they realised that fuel guzzling F-4s were less suited for (and less manuverable than) the A-4s they replaced them with. The Tbirds scaled back to the T-38.

Five T-38s used the same amount of fuel needed for one F-4 Phantom.

Still a lot of F-5s out there to be put into airshow service.

[moocow]

Moocow. first off, the Blue Angels and Thunderbirds are inacvtive NOT chopped. Secondly, "Each pilot of the Blue Angels (or Thunderbirds) is a fully qualified combat pilot, and when their tour with the demonstration team is finished, will receive a regular active duty assignment with a combat unit. The aircraft of both teams can be made combat ready in two days."

You may want to re-read my original comment. I know those are fully combat capable aircraft & crew, hence I ponder if they will turn them into combat squadrons or send them to other squadrons. Also, the word chopped was referred to financially cutting their budget. Sorry if that was not clear enough.

These demo teams are just a marketing tool. Like it or not, from an accounting point of view, these are the first items that get reduced. At least their F/A18 and F16 can be use in a combat role, our Tutors can't.

[armchair]

G'day

Armchair Private, you remind me of some disgruntled individual who failed to meet the requirments for pilot training.

Sorry Chris (Moose47) to disappoint you, and also bmc and fleet6b, but I am not a disgruntled CT'd guy, but a bonefide ex-CF pilot, graduated, got the T-shirt, and I know and admire most Snowbirds pilots from the past 40 years. I also joined the CF in part because of the Snowbirds. I also recall flying a Tutor painted in the Snowbirds livery for a clearhood test, because it had been on the line for a while but not repainted boring silver yet. That was great. So truth be said, I am a huge supporter of the team, the concept, and what it stands for. But I dont like how 431 Sgn has been politicized, PR'd, evolved with a new non-Team Lead CO, three times as many PR staff, and a whole sleuth of techs and personal this and personal that. Sounds like a NHL franchise now. The team used to be tight, small and compact, and self-sufficient. I am also sick and tired of seeing how this government is cutting on essential services like food, health and aviation safety - while forking cash for that horrendously stupid flypast over Ottawa last year, flying f F-18's , Hercs, Helos and C-17s over Parliament Hill for some useless tap on the back. Yes I think the Snowbirds are a good investment, but the conservatives are throwing this country in a handbasket, and I'd rather know the hot dog on my plate is safe to eat and that assinine 703 operator flying my ass in a King Air will not blow a gasket like Aeropro did - than see yet another 2CFFTS graduate do loops above our heads. So there, flame away!

[Beefitarian]

Well sir. I was not expecting that. I have to reluctantly admit, I'd rather have safe hot dogs. I hope we don't have to choose between them though.