YTZ Pilots Association goes after Toronto Port Authority

[xysn]

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/tor ... e12417695/

The agreement – which was signed in 1983 by the city, Transport Canada and the port authority’s predecessor, the Toronto Harbour Commissioners – states the purpose of the airport is for general aviation and “limited” commercial flights.

The Port Authority oversees operations of the airport to make sure they’re in accordance with the Tripartite Agreement.

But Julian Falconer, a lawyer representing the pilots association, says the port authority is simply handing the reins over to Porter Airlines.

“Porter has been given a blank cheque to run affairs at Billy Bishop Airport in circumstances where the Tripartite Agreement dictates exactly the opposite,” Falconer said.

“The airport should be renamed to the Bob Deluce Island Airport, because that’s the level of control and influence,” he added, referring to Porter’s chief executive.

Falconer said he hopes the case will go before a judge by the fall.

The Toronto Port Authority said it would not comment on the case because it is before the courts.

“The Toronto Port Authority supports and is committed to a continued personal aviation presence at Billy Bishop Toronto City Airport,” spokeswoman Pamela McDonald said in an e-mail.

The pilots association argues that Porter’s rapid growth has been at the expense of the general aviation community – something the Tripartite Agreement was meant to preserve.

[Panama Jack]

Poor airport. "Can't we all just get along?"

[ahramin]

What exactly has Porter done that could be damaging to GA?

[Old Dog Flying]

The was a very short news item last night about Il Duce trying to force the GA guys out of their hangars so that he could expand...shades of Hamilton-Mount Hope..!

[xysn]

I think it's mainly about Porter jacking up the rent for hangar space.

In an application filed to the federal court, the Toronto Island Pilots Association alleges Porter has forced a number of its members out of the airport by jacking up their rent by as much as 300 per cent or terminating their leases.

[dashx]

The Port authority has been driving GA traffic away for a long time. Deluce is only doing what a businessman does best......

Trans Capital is the only other company that provides parking (outside) spaces for small aircraft but it's just a matter of time before that land is turned into a parking garage.......You know.... (joking) when Westjet buys Porter.............

Location Location Location........

YTZ Pilot Association.....You are fighting a losing battle here......I wish I could be more positive........

[howard40]

I cheered when City Express started flying dash 7's, I cheered when Jazz had dash 8 flights going. Porter even flew up to my home field once, and I cheered them on. Now I wonder. I too feel GA's days at City are numbered for a couple of reasons. Once Porter offers Victor enough money (or air canada does) he will move to somewhere more sensible for his operation (supporting Dash 7's for overseas work for the most part) and that can happen anywhere. Then the whole toronto island will be Dash 8 world. I have been flying there on a regular basis for over 33 years now.. and have never seen such small amounts of pavement for GA. What happened to what we called the "city ramp".? ie public parking?
IT was the busiest airport in Canada for years, mostly due to training numbers. remember when they started parking GA back towards the button of 33 by putting tie downs in there? try getting over to some of that un-used land now... parking fees have made it so only the very determined are willing to pay.. we need a new model down there...or a few postage stamp areas for GA reserved..

[photofly]

Look out for more word games over what does and doesn't qualify as "General Aviation".

[skymarc]

Well Porter owns the GA ramp and will charge me $60 ramp fee even if I take fuel.

As for Trans Capital, they have to buy their fuel from Porter, it so crowded there with the new terminal and the ramp in so bad a shape that I stop going there.

How did Porter end up buying all the hangars in the first place? Who owned these?

[omgwereallgoingtodie]

rent increases already drove one flight school away. I honestly don't know how much longer the other will stay.
I fear you are right about the losing battle, its not just about hangerage or parking, as a small plane you can spend up to 15 minutes at the hold short line waiting for a gap in the traffic to get into the circuit.
the sheer number of flights means that we just don't get a look in.

There's no way that Porter qualifies as General Aviation , that's just BS plain and simple

[mcrit]

rent increases already drove one flight school away

Who's left?

[omgwereallgoingtodie]

Island air
Canadian flyers closed up at CYTZ a couple of years ago now, still at Markham though I think

[mcrit]

Island air

I think that place is pretty much unkillable.

[Boreas]

Island air

I think that place is pretty much unkillable.

+1

The greed-driven tenacity of that 'operation' is legendary!

[Schteevie]

As a private rental pilot, I have had great experiences flying with "Island Air" for years, and love flying out of YTZ.
I rarely have to wait for take-off longer than I needed for my run-up, and the occasional time there is a wait, it is definitely a matter of a few minutes at the most.
Assuming you are competent and efficient with radio work, and follow instructions correctly, the controllers are friendly and supportive of all reasonable requests and happily accommodate for pleasure flights around the city.

I truly hope GA manages to survive at YTZ, and fully support the Pilot's Association (I wish I knew what I could do to actually help with the fight)

For now, I am doing my best to help Mel and the team at Island Air as they fight the good flight, by flying as often as I can .

[Clodhopper]

I wonder about the quality of training that some PPL candidates seem to receive at YTZ via Island Air. I don't know how many times I've heard a 150 or 172 waive wake-turbulence separation just to fit in another touch-and-go behind a departing Q400 from Porter or Sky Regional. A dangerous habit to be developing, particularily if you fly to another airport with even larger/heavier aircraft departing/arriving.

Proper airmanship and decision-making would be to extend, or simply conduct a stop-and-go/taxi back for a normal takeoff.

[FenderManDan]

I don't know how many times I've heard a 150 or 172 waive wake-turbulence separation just to fit in another touch-and-go behind a departing Q400 from Porter or Sky Regional.

I don't know what was the particular situation, however what I do is, if I am behind the landing dash-8 i touch down past txwy C on 26 or past 15-33 on 08 (dash 8 have to be wheels down before these points otherwise they are in the drink) or just change the runway to 06-24 and waive the wake. The ATC usually gives 2min + time. If it is less then 2 min I go around. If I am doing touch and go after the departing dash 8 then I make sure I leap up before his rotation point and make immediate turn away from him or request the shorter runway.

Quite simple and with plenty of margin if things don't work out.

Instructors are more daring sometimes....that is the different story.

[omgwereallgoingtodie]

I wonder about the quality of training that some PPL candidates seem to receive at YTZ via Island Air. I don't know how many times I've heard a 150 or 172 waive wake-turbulence separation just to fit in another touch-and-go behind a departing Q400 from Porter or Sky Regional. A dangerous habit to be developing, particularily if you fly to another airport with even larger/heavier aircraft departing/arriving.

Proper airmanship and decision-making would be to extend, or simply conduct a stop-and-go/taxi back for a normal takeoff.

solo students are not allowed to waive wake turb.
that is school policy

[Schteevie]

I don't waive wake warnings as a rental pilot either.
The tower is good for helping with spacing, or you do a full stop instead of a touch and go.

As suggested above, landing steep and long is also a good way to get on top of previous landing traffic wake.
I recently had a minor encounter when landing; I have some good GoPro footage that I was able to review - it seems to be a combination of wake turbulence from a Dash-8 that landed ~90 seconds ahead of me, PLUS the prop blast of an other Dash-8 that takes-off 30 seconds before I land.
Looking at the footage there are lots of clues, including being able to see the wake/prop blast currents on the water ahead of the island runway threshold, as it was flat calm that particular night and the wind was very light.

Anyway - I am definitely going to edit together a video and share it - I will post the link when it is done.

Regardless, the training at CYTZ is great and in many ways it is more efficient than other local airports that can be busier, and less organized due to a higher volume of students.

[omgwereallgoingtodie]

got a similar video myself
too ashamed to share though because I scream like a girl.
Felt like I was flipped almost sideways by a Dash landing less than a minute in front of me.
Was just approaching threshold when it happened.

Scared the living crap out of me ! dread to think what woudl have happened if Instrcutor not on board , was my first encounter with wake turb.

Lesson learnt though, last week was doing solo circuits, full stop due to Porter taking off in front of me, setting u for landing , over the threshold, felt the wing start to drop. Power in and overshoot before it got too messy