doug ronan removed as director from copa

[CLguy]

Is this ORNGE we are discussing, sure sounds like it!

[2.5milefinal]

A long time ago I was invited to attend a COPA meeting in North Eastern Ontario. They said they where looking for some young blood. After 2 meetings. I was completely turned off. I let my membership run out and by the looks of this thread, nothing has changed. I am glad I saved my money.

[Shiny Side Up]

A long time ago I was invited to attend a COPA meeting in North Eastern Ontario. They said they where looking for some young blood. After 2 meetings. I was completely turned off. I let my membership run out and by the looks of this thread, nothing has changed. I am glad I saved my money.

This has been my impression of COPA as well. Wanting to do my utmost to support General Aviation, I periodically convince myself to look in on meetings, and it always reminds me why I don't become a member.

[PilotDAR]

I credit COPA with some good efforts (mostly at working toward preventing airport closures), but those, to me, are more distant recollections. As is often the case, the failings are much more prominent in my mind than the successes. I can sure think of some COPA failings!

There are times in history for things, and maybe COPA's time is passing. 15 years ago, the COPA newspaper was my leading source of Canadian aviation information - not any more, and I doubt ever again. It's no longer an effective means of communicating the "news". I don't care for their insurance offerings, and recently my perception of their failings is a turn off.

I sure support aviation, and the goals of my fellow owners and pilots - but I don't support them by supporting COPA - honestly, I try to do it more directly. This certainly would include making contributions on AvCanada, and a couple of similar sites. Do new pilots yearn for the benefits of the COPA membership, as much as I did in the mid '70's? I doubt it....

Doug Ronan has earned my respect for endless devotion to his fellow aviators. With that respect comes my belief that if he has chosen a path of action to support aviation, it will be worthy and relevent. This is COPA's loss, in other ways, aviation will still benefit from Doug's devotion....

[H Christensen]

Having read every post, and trying to be as neutral as I can, there is no doubt in my mind that -- at the least -- this action by the COPA board (with or without the encouragement/direction of the president) must be revisited either by the board itself or, if necessary, through members making their collective voice heard.
My COPA membership, as with many others, is on the line.

Howard Christensen
1594271

[photofly]

Not much incentive for a hard working stiff running a busniess in the real world of aviation to devote a whole pile of resources to get reinstated to a voluntary board position where you go to meetings to fight and argue and achieve absolutely nothing. Other than redirect some FTF monies to lawyers who fought and won a couple of key battles, COPA has achieved absolutely nothing during my 4 or so years on the board.

That's not much of an advertisement for you or your directorship.

If Doug Ronan doesn't want to fight for his COPA membership that's up to him. But if he cares so little about COPA why not just resign from the board when asked? If Doug himself doesn't want to be a member of COPA then why should I care what the incompetent board decided about him?

I absolutely get the whole "COPA is mismanaged" thing, and being ejected by - or resigning from - an incompetent board is not of itself a discredit to you or Doug Ronan. But it's certainly not a badge of honour either. And it does tell me that you were both unable to get along with people with whom you disagreed, and that you both failed to lead some badly needed change.

[Cat Driver]

And it does tell me that you were both unable to get along with people with whom you disagreed, and that you both failed to lead some badly needed change.

Maybe they are not willing to bend over for self serving bullies.

Maybe they don't like the taste of being asskissers.?

[mmmcharron]

If Doug Ronan doesn't want to fight for his COPA membership that's up to him. But if he cares so little about COPA why not just resign from the board when asked? If Doug himself doesn't want to be a member of COPA then why should I care what the incompetent board decided about him?

I didn't say that Doug wouldn't accept a reappointment. I just stated that I would not go back to that board if I were in his shoes.

If you don't think that is the right answer, then let your name run for appointment to the board?

Marc Charron

[photofly]

I have for a long time thought spending $60 on an oil change to be a more productive contribution to GA than joining COPA, and nothing I've read here or on the COPA website convinces me otherwise.

[DougRonan]

The basic message of everything said here is correct – I don’t want to getting into a he said – she said battle here - that would not be productive. There are 90 posts and 4500 views on this topic – almost all of the opinions/comments post here about COPA, its Board, and its senior staff – are negative. I believe there was maybe one positive comment by someone early on – other than that they have all been complaints or criticism. With this many people posting and 4500 people looking – I believe this is a pretty good slice of the General Aviation public. This confirms what I have been telling the Board – this organization is in big trouble – we are not the COPA that has a proud 60 year history. We are the COPA that had a proud 50 to 55 year history – the last 5 or 10 years have not been proud. Except for the Supreme Court Decisions - very little has been accomplished in the last few years – everybody gets the standard “government type” answer of “we don’t have the manpower and we don’t have the money”. A lot of the comments and criticisms about COPA in these 90 posts on Avcanada are pretty accurate. I have about the same opinion of Marc Charron as he has of me – other than I am probably more engrossed in every aspect of aviation full time. Marc – as I am – is opinionated (probably more so!) but his rendition of COPA”s Board and its Staff – is pretty much bang on!! He is a successful business man and has quite a bit of “Board” experience other than COPA.
As John Cooper stated – I am a “what’s right kind of guy” not a “who’s right kind of guy”. Unfortunately this is not what COPA is looking for in a director – for all of the previously mentioned reasons. Marc and I apparently don’t make very good trained seals! (And there are quite a few that have come before us and even a few still on the board that don’t make good trained seals! – they will be next on the Chopping Block!) I was elected by you the members to represent your interests to COPA and for COPA. And as I have said countless times to the Board – I have the most to gain (or lose!) by any decision made by this board. I am only 43 years old and my son is only 16 years old – we live and breathe aviation 24/7! I have for the last 25 years – and I hope my son and I will for many decades to come. So if decisions are made by this organization that are going to effect the members that elected me and more importantly my son and I – you bet your ass I’m going to speak up! And if nothing gets done I’m going to speak up louder and I’m going to do everything I can to represent the people that elected me to this position!
The big problem with this organization - in its current incarnation - is that nothing can get done – as is outlined in many of the previous posts – for all the reasons mentioned. It’s time for a major change!
As for me and my situation with COPA – as I said to the whole Board from my hospital bed at home when I phoned into the meeting in Dawson Creek a few weeks ago “I stand by everything I’ve said and everything I’ve done and will not resign because I haven’t done anything wrong” The fact that they didn’t “fire me” through the proper protocol outlined in the By-laws, the fact they have been essentially silent other than the hollow statement on the website written by Paul Hayes (????) and the fact they have not answered any of the questioned asked by the members on this forum or the COPA Facebook page - pretty much shows that they don’t want you the members to hear the real story. I could quite easily fight their (or I should say –HIS!) half baked plan to not renew (or actually refund) my membership (I have spoken to a lawyer that agrees that it would be like shooting fish in a barrel to fight this) but where would that get me and more importantly all of you? I would be back on a dysfunctional Board, with a dysfunctional President, continuing with their dysfunctional reign over this grossly dysfunctional organization. I still do care – specifically right now I don’t care about COPA as it sits right now but I absolutely do and always have cared about the Aims and Objectives of COPA!! I would prefer to support you the membership in a much needed regime change to save this organization and restore it to the prosperity it enjoyed in its first 50 to 55 years of greatness!!

Doug Ronan
705-327-4730 anytime

[Tom H]

First off

Thank you for taking the time to reply to the issues on this thread.

I appreciate the effort it takes and I also appreciate the time it takes to be on any board.

Second

So if decisions are made by this organization that are going to effect the members that elected me and more importantly my son and I – you bet your ass I’m going to speak up! And if nothing gets done I’m going to speak up louder and I’m going to do everything I can to represent the people that elected me to this position!

Thank you for standing for the members and representing their direction.

I have sat on boards for a number of not for profits (and currently work for one as Executive Director) so I appreciate board members who take such positions and hold the line on them.

In my highly biased personal opinion
Tom Hinderks

[Moose47]

G'day

Doug stick to your guns.

Hopefully this needless mess will sort itself out for the better and we'll see you back where you belong serving the needs of Canadian aviators.

Take care buddy!

Cheers...Chris
former Captain - C.O.P.A. Flight 23

[I_Drive_Planes]

I would prefer to support you the membership in a much needed regime change to save this organization and restore it to the prosperity it enjoyed in its first 50 to 55 years of greatness!!

First of all, thank you Mr. Ronan for having the balls to stand up and be a dissenting voice against the firmly entrenched COPA old boys club.

I'm not terribly familiar with the bylaws of COPA, but is there a way to force an election before the terms of the current directors and president are up?

By the response I'm seeing on AVCANADA and elsewhere it seems that this issue is creating a lot of momentum and passion in an organization that seems to have lost those things. It would be great to be able to take advantage of that momentum and passion to affect positive change in the organization and I worry that, if left too long, we'll lose the fire and be stuck with the status quo.

[Docav8or]

Simon Berry wrote on COPA Facebook:

I am a freshly minted Canadian private pilot who was naively considering joining COPA. After all, Canadian Owners and Pilots Association... right? (Working on the Owner bit...) The recent vitriolic hubris on this blog inevitably leads one to question the motivation of this organization. The COPA website has an interesting recent article http://www.copanational.org/ChairJul13En.cfm that states "a requirement of ordinary membership in COPA is to support the aims of the COPA. Those aims are expressed through the resolutions of the elected members of the Board as they are passed by majority vote from time to time." I've not the inclination to translate this with Roberts Rules of Order, so perhaps someone can help me with this then since I can't find such aims expressly published on the COPA website. (I searched for "aims", and clicked on the "Why Join" link and the website crashed.) I am looking for a democratic organization offering representation, networking and mentoring congruent with my aspirations to exercise the privilege I earned to have fun and go fly. Any suggestions?

[Docav8or]

Thank you for your email. You are obviously concerned about what has happened and rest assure, so is the Board. As stated before, this is not a decision that was taken lightly and has occupied the Board for some time now. Indeed, the fact that so much time and energy of Board members has been devoted to this internal issue rather than external aviation issues that ought to be addressed is evidence of the damage that was being caused. It had to be addressed.

I do not intend to answer each of your questions as posed. Further, the language you have used is, unfortunately, suggestive and accusatory. For example, you ask why this was done in “secret”. It was not. It was announced. Indeed, following the announcement, some members have suggested that we should not said anything and kept the matter confidential and internal. You also suggest that we have accused Mr. Ronan of a “crime”. We have not. As for the balance of your questions, they are answered in the statement issued by the Board.

There is a time and place for dissention and disagreement. There is also a point when such dissention and disagreement within an organization is disruptive and destructive. When that point is reached, those responsible for the organization must act to protect it or stand by and take responsibility for it being weakened, undermined and perhaps, ultimately, destroyed. Your elected Board members believed that this point had been reached with Mr. Ronan, and acted. Perhaps another Board composed of other members may have acted later, or sooner or not at all. However, this Board, and not any other, was charged with the responsibility for COPA at this time and acted in what it believed was in COPA’s best interests and in accordance with its bylaws. We stand by our actions.

Regards

Paul Hayes
Chairman

[2R]

After careful reflection, It might be too strong to say that COPA is useless.
The Government had a use for COPA. When the Government imposed user fees after saying that they had consulted the Pilots and Owners in Canada.

[photofly]

However, this Board, ... acted in.. in accordance with its bylaws.

Horseshit.

[Bede]

Mr. Hayes,

Thank you for responding. I don't know Mr. Ronan and I am not sufficiently familiar with the circumstances to form an opinion. However, I have a significant concern with the board's belief that:

"...a requirement of ordinary membership in COPA is to support the aims of the COPA. Those aims are expressed through the resolutions of the elected members of the Board as they are passed by majority vote from time to time. A member, particularly a Director, who attacks Board decisions after they are taken at duly held Board meetings, undermines the aims of this organization. Such a Director jeopardizes his or her continued membership in both the Board and in COPA itself."

In essence your position is that, if you hold a dissenting opinion to that of the board you are ineligible for membership, let alone running for a leadership position. Your views have put COPA in a precarious legal position. It is the membership that elects the board and the board in turn represents the membership. The way you seem to understand your position is that the board sets the direction and the membership falls in line. A member who doesn't agree with your position is not eligible for membership and cannot hold you to account in elections.

I will review whether I wish to remain a member of your organization.

[dstechnical]

Mr. Hayes states that this was not done in secret and it was announced. When exactly was it announced, not at last AGM when it should have bee so the members could discuss it, not on the COPA web page. There only announcement came after they were shamed into making in public by this forum. Mr Hayes and the PRes. were so paranoid about a possible leak, that they wanted all emails stopped.
He also states that the board stands behind this, The board was not unanimous about this, matter, and there does come a time when the board must go to the members on important issues that affect all members. I think throwing out directors and cancelling memberships is one of these issues. I hope that the dissenting members can push this matter. They should know that the membership is behind them

[photofly]

there does come a time when the board must go to the members on important issues that affect all members. I think throwing out directors and cancelling memberships is one of these issues.

Regardless of what anyone thinks, it's in the bylaws that they must do so.